2023-06-28 GnuCash IRC logs

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07:19:21 <giuseppef> Hi, I am working on the Italian translation (not in time for 5.3, sorry, I was too late). Can someone explain what does it mean the string "(negated)"? Is it a request for a negative number, or a request for a number with an eventually minus (-) (or plus?) sign?
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07:38:49 <Simon> "Amount" used to be "Deposit" and "Amount (negated)" used to be "Withdrawal", but GnuCash deals in both "Amount" and "Value" which can be different, so be careful:
07:38:51 <Simon> { GncTransPropType::AMOUNT, N_("Amount") },
07:38:53 <Simon> { GncTransPropType::AMOUNT_NEG, N_("Amount (Negated)") },
07:38:55 <Simon> { GncTransPropType::VALUE, N_("Value") },
07:38:57 <Simon> { GncTransPropType::VALUE_NEG, N_("Value (Negated)") },
07:39:05 <Simon> there's also:
07:39:07 <Simon> { GncTransPropType::TAMOUNT, N_("Transfer Amount") },
07:39:09 <Simon> { GncTransPropType::TAMOUNT_NEG, N_("Transfer Amount (Negated)") },
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07:41:49 <Simon> so "negated" is "amount in the opposite direction"
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07:43:47 <Simon> it is not expected to be a negative number
07:44:37 <Simon> GnuCash will negate the number that's provided, so in the case of a withdrawal from a bank account that will then become a negative number
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12:40:22 <giuseppef> Thanks Simon, really I still don't know how to render this in Italian
12:40:51 <giuseppef> However: any one knows a tool or a workflow to verify the use of "_" in menus?
12:51:30 <Simon> I don't know but you could try checking the wiki
12:51:48 <Simon> "Amount (negated)" isn't ideal in English either
12:52:42 <Simon> A more descriptive form would be "Amount (will be negated)"
12:53:06 <Simon> But even that doesn't explain *why*
12:54:14 <Simon> If formal accounting labels were in use (but that's not currently a feature) it should be "Credit"
12:55:25 <Simon> I'm not familiar with the importer because I don't use it but if it knew the account type I'd make it use the labels that would appear in the register
12:56:12 <Simon> I suspect it's possible to import for more than one account which makes that difficult
12:56:27 <Simon> If there's space in the interface I'd just list all of them
12:59:13 <Simon> e.g. "Deposit/Payment/Receive/Buy Amount" and "Withdrawal/Charge/Spend/Sell Amount"
13:00:54 <Simon> in English, "negated" can be "deny existence", "nullify", "be negative" and "make negative"
13:01:11 <Simon> for me, it is "nullify" that comes to mind first
13:04:11 <Simon> for me it implies "this is the amount but it's wrong and needs to be negated"
13:04:36 <Simon> as if you pick one of "Amount" or "Amount (Negated)" for a column, and don't use the other one
13:05:07 <Simon> whereas in reality it looks like you may need to use both, or the amount may simply be negative in the "Amount" column
13:05:52 <Simon> one of the columns is "Account" so it can't be context-aware :|
13:07:00 <Simon> "Transfer Amount" is even worse
13:08:36 <Simon> why don't we have "Transfer Value" too?
13:09:04 <Simon> the documentation is still calling these "Deposit" and "Withdrawal"
13:09:40 <Simon> https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v5/C/gnucash-manual/figures/CSV_Import_transactions_Preview.png
13:09:58 <Simon> that big empty space under "File Format" needs to be used to explain these terms
13:12:45 <Simon> none of this helps your Italian translation except that "negato" is probably correct
13:13:07 <Simon> but it's confusing in English and will be confusing in Italian
13:18:40 <Simon> there's a proposed change to make this "sign-reversed" and not "negated": https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=798922
13:20:19 <Simon> so I'd translate it as "Importo (negato)" for now unless you know of a better word that can mean "negated" but doesn't mean "negative"
13:20:52 <Simon> then when it changes to "Amount (sign-reversed)" it'll be easier to translate
13:22:40 <Simon> if we didn't have three different fields it would have been possible to put all the informal account labels in the list
13:22:49 <Simon> but doing that multiplied by 3 is excessive
13:22:49 <giuseppef> "Importo (negato)" is totally incomprehensible. "Negare", in Italian, means to say that something is not true. "I denied being there." -> "Ho negato di essere stato lì"
13:25:08 <giuseppef> If I understand, if you are importing a report with only one column, if the positive values are Credit, the "negated" values will be reported ad Debit?
13:27:17 <Simon> technically the positive values are Debit and the negative values are Credit
13:27:28 <Simon> sorry,
13:27:42 <Simon> if the column uses positive values for Debit, you select the negated option
13:28:49 <Simon> you could translate it as "Amount (sign reversed)" to "Importo (segno invertito)" (I am using Google Translate ;))
13:30:24 <Simon> argh
13:30:42 <Simon> Debit positive, Credit negative => Amount, Amount (negated)
13:31:08 * Simon tries a third time
13:31:10 <Simon> Debit negative, Credit positive => Amount
13:31:15 <Simon> nope
13:31:18 <Simon> I give up
13:31:27 <giuseppef> Ok, really thanks. So, this is the case when you import a bank statement?
13:31:33 <Simon> Debit positive, Credit negative => Amount
13:31:43 <Simon> Debit negative, Credit positive => Amount (negated)
13:32:04 <Simon> because all the amounts have to be made negative to match the expected accounting direction
13:32:17 <Simon> (and making a negative number negative means it becomes positive)
13:32:28 <Simon> "Amount" used to be "Deposit"
13:32:35 <Simon> "Amount (negated)" used to be "Withdrawal"
13:33:03 <Simon> so you'd use one of those terms for a bank statement, but which one requires knowing what will happen with positive and negative numbers
13:33:49 <giuseppef> Simon: I think the better translation is "inverso" (inverted). Do you think it could fit?
13:33:57 <Simon> even the informal accounting labels don't help with that because you can only pick one of them for a columne that applies to both
13:34:08 <Simon> that will fit
13:34:23 <giuseppef> Really thanks
13:34:29 <Simon> there was some bug discussion about how "inverted" is *technically* wrong
13:34:40 <Simon> because in a mathematical sense "inverted" can mean other things
13:35:48 <Simon> inverso appears to be "reversed", not "inverted"
13:36:07 <Simon> oh it's inverse on wiktionary
13:38:08 <Simon> https://forum.cloudfinance.it/nota-credito-t1138.html uses "segno invertito"
13:38:16 <giuseppef> inverse in Italian is "inverso". In maths: inverse (l'inverso) of x is y=-x
13:38:25 <Simon> yes, that's what jralls was trying to avoid
13:38:42 <Simon> because it's only one way to invert the number
13:38:53 <Simon> https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=798922#c3
13:39:36 <Simon> using "Deposit" and "Withdrawal" for (single columns) doesn't fix this
13:41:45 <Simon> I wouldn't worry about it fitting; the combo box will show the full name when opened
13:45:55 <Simon> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Additive_inverse
13:46:54 <Simon> using that term is going to be even more obscure than negated
13:48:17 <Simon> I think "segno invertito" is the closest to the real meaning
13:48:44 <Simon> the problem with "opposite" and "inverted" and "reversed" is that they require you to know it's referring to positive and negative numbers
13:49:03 <Simon> whereas stating that the "sign" is reversed is unambiguous
13:49:19 <Simon> "+ becomes -" and "- becomes +"
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14:01:32 <Simon> GnuCash only has "Credit Card" as another liablity type... it should perhaps have "Loan" so that those accounts can use better accounting labels than "Increase"/"Decrease"
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16:07:09 <giuseppef> I used (segno opposto). "Opposto" in italian math is an inversion by sum https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposto_(matematica)
17:39:06 <giuseppef> Just to be sure: everytime in strings the term used is "bill" it means a document received upon a purchase and "invoice" is (generic or) the document issued when you sale something?
17:47:07 <Simon> the "document received upon a purchase" would be a receipt, not a bill
17:47:22 <Simon> a bill is also an invoice
17:48:11 <Simon> gnucash might have a different meaning...
17:49:57 <Simon> https://lists.gnucash.org/docs/C/gnucash-help/busnss-ap-bills1.html
17:50:00 <Simon> https://lists.gnucash.org/docs/C/gnucash-help/busnss-ar-invoices1.html
17:50:11 <Simon> "A bill is a request for payment you receive from a vendor."
17:50:18 <Simon> "An invoice is the paperwork you send to a customer to request payment for products or services rendered."
17:50:30 <Simon> so a bill is an invoice you receive
17:50:38 <Simon> an invoice is an invoice you send
17:52:08 <giuseppef> Yes, this is how I have translated. Thanks
17:54:40 <giuseppef> I didn't find a word to say bill in the sense of GnuCash. So I translated invoice as "Documento di vendita" and Bill as "Documento di acquisto". I could have used "Fattura" (invoice) instead of "Documento" (document) but "Invoice" has a specific meaning in VAT system
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18:16:52 <giuseppef> Can someone try to insert a simple "Buying stock long" transaction with the assistent and tell me if it works as expected? I got some errors about balancing and I think it is a problem o signs
18:22:15 <giuseppef> No, the problem is not signs. The problem is what happens if you make a mistake and then go back to fix and then return to finish. Errors are not cleared, and the Apply button cannot be pushed
18:28:59 <giuseppef> On Dividends doesn't work too
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21:25:36 <chris> jralls: https://pastebin.com/raw/RnD3qyZ2 while setting GNCAccountSel in ifrs-report.scm -- cannot modify accounts. not sure when this started.
21:27:40 <chris> ^ also debugging assistant-stock-transaction.cpp - some bugs slip through - eg cannot create a regular ROC type txn
21:28:40 <chris> ^ more bugs: SELL should decrease #units
21:29:29 <chris> quite a lot of UI bugs!
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