2022-09-30 GnuCash IRC logs
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01:24:46 <glorberto> Are we talking about me?
01:25:05 <glorberto> Additionally, what's the best report to export for an accountant if they only deal in paper?
01:29:34 <glorberto> I've been curious about this idea in my head of using the bank accounts as mere "lower layers" for another set of overlaid accounts used for other tracking. Is that method useful if I run multiple businesses out of a single bank account that I want to form business insights from?
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06:46:03 <warlord> jralls, no, i did not.
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13:51:26 <jralls> starman_, I removed the ban on starman
13:52:05 <jralls> glorberto, no, we weren't talking about you.
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13:54:02 <jralls> gloreberto, as for the accountant who can only deal with paper, what reports to give them depends on what they want. The Balance Sheet and Income Statement reports are the standard summary reports to show an enterprise's financial standing and results for the previous period.
13:54:52 <jralls> If the accountant wants details the transaction report is pretty flexible, and you can combine it with the Find facility to create a tailored journal.
13:58:52 <jralls> As for commingling the assets of several companies in a single bank account: That's pretty severely frowned upon in most jurisdictions that I know about. If you insist, you could create a bunch of hierarchies in a single book, one for each business, and have the one bank account outside all of them with a sub-account for each company to reflect its share of the bank account.
14:00:45 <jralls> To get a balance sheet for any of the companies you'd use the accounts tab in report options to select that company's hierarchy plus its sub-account under the one bank account.
14:02:30 <jralls> You'd have to be very careful indeed when doing data entry to make sure that everything goes in the right account.
14:05:42 <jralls> It would be saner to keep a separate file for each company and a master for the bank account. In the master account you'd have the same subaccounts for the bank account, but the other top level accounts--income, expense, liabilities, and equity--would have a single subaccount for each company and you'd enter every bank account transaction twice, once in the bank account file and once in the company file.
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16:17:32 <dpchr> Hi. So I have been using gnucash for several years for personal finances and my default currency is HRK (Croatian Kuna).
16:17:32 <dpchr> Since HRK will be replaced with EUR beginning next year, I would like to hear some advice on how to best handle this transition.
16:17:32 <dpchr> How would you go about replacing one default currency with another?
16:17:32 <dpchr> Can default currency be changed without issues?
16:17:32 <dpchr> I would like to keep all of the existing transaction history.
16:17:32 <dpchr> There will be a fixed exchange rate between HRK and EUR from 2023-01-01 onward and there will be no new HRK transactions.
16:17:32 <dpchr> Those accounts that have balances and transaction in HRK - should the balances be moved to new EUR accounts or what other options are possible?
16:17:34 <dpchr> Does anyone here have past experience with similar conversion (multiple EU countries already did this between 2007 and 2015 IIRC)?
16:29:12 <jralls> dpchr, I have https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/pull/1433 ready to be merged and released in 4.13. That will set up the fixed exchange rate and I think will magic everything HRK into EUR. If that's right the only catch is that you'll want to wait until 1 Jan 2023 to switch to 4.13.
16:33:50 <dpchr> jralls, thanks - that sounds useful. Does this mean original HRK amounts will no longer be visible/accessible?
16:36:36 <jralls> I actually don't know. Let's see if I can figure it out from the source.
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16:44:36 <dpchr> Looking at your commit https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/pull/1433/commits/e4ed901ae42379c4bfd171bf034e73896c94ad5f
16:45:19 <dpchr> I believe you need to use correct exchange rate for HRK/EUR which is 7.53450
16:45:21 <dpchr> See: https://www.hnb.hr/en/-/croatia-to-introduce-the-euro-on-1-january-2023
16:47:18 <jralls> Oh, thanks for catching that.
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16:54:38 <jralls> Fixed. I'm called away to a meeting. I suggest you ask on gnucash-user for someone who has actual experience with this, but there may not be anyone as the last change was Latvia 9 years ago.
16:55:16 <dpchr> thanks
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17:12:03 <Simon> shouldn't there be dates associated with those fixed rates?
17:12:39 <Simon> the currency should still have a different conversion rate in the past
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17:15:49 <dpchr> yes, that makes sense, otherwise past transactions would not balance, right? Not sure if that is how it's planned to work after jralls commits though.
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17:20:38 <Simon> there's no question of the transactions having a different meaning, only the conversion to other currencies
17:20:58 <Simon> transactions before 2023 should not be converted to EUR at the fixed rate
17:22:30 <Simon> although "magic everything HRK into EUR" may mean the old transactions appear to be EUR at the fixed rate
17:22:49 <Simon> which to me is not at all accurate
17:23:31 <Simon> if your 100 HRK cash withdrawal is suddenly a rounded EUR value that makes your historical data a bit useless
17:23:51 <Simon> on the other hand the account can't have two currencies
17:24:15 <Simon> the balance has to make sense before/after 2023
17:25:04 <Simon> I recommend you make a *copy* of your data and manually edit it outside of gnucash so that it's FRF instead of HRK
17:25:20 <Simon> then you can see what it would look like if this automatic conversion happens
17:27:32 <Simon> I would probably want to duplicate all my accounts if this kind of thing happened to my money, but that's a massive operation
17:27:55 <Simon> suddenly I'd have Expenses:* in two currencies for almost everything
17:30:21 <Simon> and then there's the overhead of selecting "Expenses:*:OLD" and "Expenses:*:NEW" or the inability to combine both currencies with "Expenses OLD:*" and "Expenses NEW:*"
17:31:38 <dpchr> yes, that's a good summary of what I was concerned about as well.
17:32:58 <Simon> there is no easy solution to this - you need daily currency information to be able to show historical transactions correctly and you only have two decimal places of precision
17:33:41 <Simon> if I were you I'd be looking for historical HRK to EUR currency rates going back to your first transaction, just in case you want to do that
17:34:47 <Simon> ultimately the totals of Expenses:* aren't that useful because of inflation
17:35:00 <Simon> so I'd probably just split the top level by currency
17:35:51 <Simon> net worth is still relatively meaningful to calculate so I'd want transfer assets to a new account
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17:37:49 <dpchr> good points, I'll need to think about the optimal approach / try it out - before the end of the year.
17:38:00 <Simon> do you use XML or an SQL database?
17:38:20 <dpchr> sqlite3
17:38:30 <Simon> aah. I'm not familiar with the format of that
17:38:50 <Simon> but you should be able to copy it and then manually change the currency of everything to FRF
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17:52:14 <jralls> OK, meeting over. Don't panic, there's much less magic than I thought.
17:58:24 <jralls> The register just changes the summary bar at the bottom. The transfer dialog makes sure that if there's an exchange rate required it's the statutory one.
18:00:33 <dpchr> what happens with old transactions between HRK and EUR accounts?
18:00:58 <jralls> Nothing happens to existing transactions.
18:02:45 <jralls> I guess the simplest thing to do would be to close your book on 31 December and create a new one in EUR with opening balances in the new amounts on 1 January.
18:03:51 <dpchr> so, I can change any top level account without posted transactions from HRK to EUR and then close balances on HRK accounts and copy over to new accounts?
18:04:14 <dpchr> I would have duplicated accounts, but there is no way to avoid that right?
18:05:52 <jralls> Yes, I think that's the fallback if you want to keep using the same file. You would indeed have to duplicate all of your active accounts into EUR ones.
18:07:24 <jralls> If you have outstanding bills or invoices in HRK you'd have to keep the HRK AP/AR accounts open so you can post those as they're paid.
18:08:04 <dpchr> Keeping the same file is the general idea since I can preserve transaction history.
18:08:44 <jralls> Or maybe you have to cancel the bills and invoices and create new ones in EUR since you'll be paying or getting paid in EUR in the new year.
18:10:19 <dpchr> rgr
18:11:29 <dpchr> another thing that would be helpful in gnucash would be to show account curreny code on each transaction line. That is not possible right now is it?
18:13:13 <fell> jralls, 54 - test-gnc-euro (Failed)
18:13:23 <jralls> IIRC it does that when you have trading accounts enabled.
18:14:05 <jralls> fell, yeah, got emails. I forgot to fix the price in the unit test. I'll push the fix in a couple of minutes.
18:15:09 <jralls> dpchr If you're not using trading accounts then the currency is always the one for the current register.
18:20:26 <dpchr> jralls, ok, just thought it would be helpful to show it all the time as a reminder of what you are looking at
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18:24:10 <jralls> It would have to be a preference. For those of us who use only one currency it would be distracting, especially if it's the three-letter code instead of the symbol, i.e. EUR instead of €.
18:24:45 <dpchr> preference for sure, no need to force it on anyone
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22:37:10 <glorberto> TEST
22:37:17 <glorberto> Okay, sweet. Thanks a bunch for the information, jralls.
22:37:51 <glorberto> What's the gnucash parlance for getting a summary of expenses PER some list of accounts? I basically have in my head that I can generate each one's contributions to these fused expense accounts.
22:39:07 <glorberto> (I noticed that the income & expense report will do that if I had separated accounts to separate incomes. I could do that, or I could currently get this information out of the current dataset by using "asset" accounts in place of the income ones)
22:50:18 <glorberto> (I'm gonna split things into the income categories properly, looks like)
22:52:58 <glorberto> Nope, I think I've messed this up. In order to make sure I had control of transfers to other businesses from when a card was mistakenly used in one place, I've got multiple accounts under the assets, and I'm thinking that if I generate this income and expense sheet, it won't be tracking it PER external asset account.
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23:32:42 <glorberto> Perhaps this Cash Flow report could be useful...