2022-01-02 GnuCash IRC logs
00:29:21 <CDB-Man> chris: something we should develop in parallel to the ifrs cost basis tool: an ifrs cost basis portfolio view. it wouldnt need to show all the transactions, it would only accumulate the acb in 1 column, then show current market value (based on pricedb) in the other column
00:31:03 <CDB-Man> given that we "dont care" about cap gains or any income in this report, we could simplify the truth table to only care about splits which directly hit the stock account
00:32:53 <CDB-Man> hmm actually, i think simply reading the value value of all debits and credits to a stock account should do the trick
00:34:49 <CDB-Man> the current advanced protfolio expects all commissions to go to expense accounts, which is a flaw -- it fails to pickup on capitalized commissions at the split level, as it tries to "capitalize them at the report level"
00:36:11 <CDB-Man> if you were to take a stab at this, you can easily test its accuracy by comparing single stocks cost bais to the ifrs cost basis tool
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07:49:44 <yayachiken> Hi, I was wondering: Is there any way to create an account which tracks non-monetary liabilities, in my example stocks? The scenario is: I track the stock I own via a normal stock asset account which is in sync with the depot at my bank. Some of those stocks are actually savings for my children, which I would like to subtract from my equity while still tracking the assets so the total is in sync with my
07:49:44 <yayachiken> bank account. Is that in any way possible?
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08:26:45 <Simon> does it work if you create a stock account under Liabilities?
08:28:43 <Simon> even if it's not handled strictly as a liability the balance would be negative so it would cancel out the other account
08:39:43 <yayachiken> Come to think of it, I haven't really tried putting in a negative amount for stocks.
08:40:45 <yayachiken> Yeah, that kind of seems to work, thanks. Not a perfect solution though, having negative liabilities is a bit weird.
08:41:33 <yayachiken> (Especially when you are poor like me and have actual liabilities with positive values showing up alongside ;-) )
08:46:52 <yayachiken> Hm, actually it doesn't work. When my bank has 200 units of the stock as assets, and the liability accounts have -100 units of the stock as assets each, the equity overview will show -200 units.
08:48:51 <yayachiken> That being said I do not really know which account to credit... I tried using the "Ausbuchungskonto" (sorry cannot find the proper english term) as that seems to be actually the proper way to get an asset out of my balance.
08:50:55 <chris> yayachiken: IIUC you'd be better off tracking them as regular assets. legally and using gnucash engine.
08:54:30 <yayachiken> Well they *are* regular assets, and legally it is still my money. It is still pretty unsatisfying that you cannot accurately track the passive side. I mean, that's kind of the point of personal accounting.
08:55:17 <yayachiken> Also in my jurisdiction you could actually make a contract which would create an actual liability from the stocks.
08:56:16 <chris> don't disagree, but gnucash probably doesn't quite have this distinction internally... hence my suggestion. perhaps someone on gnucash-user may have better suggestions.
08:56:19 <yayachiken> But I figured something else out: In a stock account, it seems you can actually create a transaction without double-entry bookkeeping
08:56:29 <Simon> that sounds like a bad idea
08:56:59 <yayachiken> When I just put in -100 units of stock, but don't credit the "Ausbuchungskonto" I actually only have -100 units of stock.
08:57:03 <Simon> I had to start using the XXX currency for some things that aren't real because I was ending up with a complete mess trying to use a stock for it
08:57:08 <yayachiken> And then it cancels out correctly.
08:57:18 <Simon> is "Ausbuchungskonto" "Equity"?
08:57:26 <Simon> you should be putting it in "Expenses"
08:58:56 <Simon> aah that's "Orphan"
08:59:05 <Simon> you shouldn't have anything in there
08:59:27 <Simon> it's an automatic account used when GnuCash has to create a split to balance the transaction
08:59:48 <Simon> the same with "Imbalance" aka "Ausgleichskonto"
09:00:59 <Simon> you have an Expense of whatever the cost of purchasing the shares at the time you do it, going to the Liability
09:01:20 <Simon> (not accurate for tax purposes of course, because they're really still your assets)
09:02:24 <yayachiken> I know, I am not 100% sure how to model what I am trying to do in classical accounting. Actually I want this to be off-balance. The thing is that the mistake was crediting my equity last year.
09:02:50 <yayachiken> So your recommendation seems correct, it is actually an expense. Maybe I will just push it to 31st of december so it does not appear in the current year.
09:02:51 <Simon> you can't have it entirely outside your balance
09:02:58 <Simon> because you want it to remain in the bank account
09:03:21 <Simon> so if you want it to not show as part of your net worth you need to offset it with a liability
09:04:01 <Simon> if you want a hack to make an expense not appear, put it in Equity ("Eigenkapital") first
09:05:44 <Simon> (not appear until a later date, when you move it to Expenses)
09:06:17 <Simon> if you don't want it to appear in your list of expenses I think you just have to avoid selecting that account when reporting
09:06:33 <Simon> I have my entire year's income tax in one expense transaction :|
09:07:04 <Simon> or put it in Equity and transfer it to Expenses in equal monthly parts
09:07:33 <Simon> or just create more of the liability each month...
09:08:06 <yayachiken> Doesn't seem to work, Expense accounts do not seem to allow for stock accounts. Which kind of makes sense when stock accounts are always asset-type accounts...
09:08:15 <Simon> the Expense account should be in EUR
09:08:58 <Simon> you'll have two transactions: Income/Asset (in EUR) -> Stock (Asset) and Stock (Liability) -> Expense (in EUR)
09:09:07 <yayachiken> Yes, the entry mask will not even allow me to select the field to enter stock units, so I cannot debit the EUR expense account
09:09:31 * Simon tries doing it
09:09:34 <yayachiken> That's why I tried to create yet another stock account below the general expense account allocated for that family member
09:10:38 <Simon> it works for me when I do this
09:10:57 <Simon> I created Liabilities:Test as a Stock, opened it and created a transaction going to Expenses
09:11:10 <Simon> I have an Expenses transaction for £100, and £100 of Stock
09:12:02 <yayachiken> Oh, so that's what you mean by "create more of the liability each month", you meant actually tracking price changes in regular intervals to expenses/income?
09:12:04 <Simon> you won't be able to enter stock units in the Expense register except in the exchange rate window
09:12:06 <Simon> no
09:12:19 <Simon> not price changes
09:12:41 <Simon> I meant that if you're making one purchase of stock a year, you can have 12 transactions from Liabilities to Expenses
09:12:57 <Simon> the total amount would still be the same but you'd then have a more even distribution
09:13:10 <Simon> because it seemed like you didn't want it to show up as a large expense
09:13:46 <yayachiken> Oh ok you mean that I would create the expense transaction in the past, at the same date where the stock was actually bought?
09:13:51 <Simon> yes
09:13:55 <yayachiken> that makes sense
09:13:58 <Simon> the expense happens when you spend money to buy the stock
09:14:08 <Simon> it never increases in cost either
09:27:33 <yayachiken> I hope I have done everything correctly, as far as I can see everything adds up now.
09:27:37 <yayachiken> Thank you a lot for your help!
09:31:43 <fell> Simon creating a stock or fund under liabilties is abad idea.
09:33:40 <fell> We do doublle entry accounting, so there a 2 things: 1. an asset (stock/fund) and 2. the liability against the children.
09:34:52 <fell> They should balance.
09:35:29 <yayachiken> fell, my problem was: I was unable to find a way to enter the liability as a non-monetary value. As I always want to have 100 units of stock count as the liability regardless of price changes.
09:35:55 <fell> yayachiken, Es gibt da mehrere Möglichkeiten:
09:36:38 <fell> Führst du das Buch nur für dich oder die ganze Familie?
09:37:12 <Simon> it is impossible for them to balance with one transaction, because the funds to purchase the stock asset come from another account
09:37:31 <fell> 1. eine Gnucash-Datei für jeden Angehörigen,
09:37:32 <Simon> you could have one transaction with 4 splits but that's practically the same as 2 transactions with 2 splits each
09:38:54 <fell> 2. eine gemeinsame Gnucash-Datei, in der jeder Angehörige sein eigenes Eigenkapital-Konto hat.
09:40:00 <fell> 3. Geld von Angehörigen wird als Verbindlichkeit geführt.
09:40:10 <yayachiken> fell, primär nutze ich Gnucash weil sich das bisher praktisch per HBCI integriert. Also eigentlich nur für mich. Aber auf die Idee ein Eigenkapital pro Familienmitglied anzulegen war ich gar nicht gekommen. So herum kann man das natürlich auch aufziehen.
09:41:23 <fell> Nachteil von 1) manche Buchungen müssen doppelt eingegeben werden.
09:42:46 <fell> Nachteil von 3: Werte von Aktien etc. schwanken und jedesmal muß die Verbindlichkeit angepaßt werden.
09:44:48 <fell> Mir scheint 2 am günstigsten.
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09:47:03 <fell> Jetzt willst du manche Einkünfte den verschiedenen Familienmitgliedern zuordnen, also braucht es da dann auch wieder die Unterteilung nach Angehörigen—für Gebühren wahrscheinlich auch..
09:47:59 <yayachiken> Divergiert dann nicht bei Ansatz 2) auch wieder Eigenkapital vom eigentlichen Gegenwert? D.h. wieder periodisches Eintragen von nicht-realisierten Erträgen/Verlusten?
09:49:17 <yayachiken> Nein, so genau brauche ich das tatsächlich nicht. Ich will eigentlich nur 1. tracken wieviele Anteile wem versprochen sind und 2. die Anteile auf der Aktivseite weiterhin meinen real existierenden Konten/Depots zuordnen (wegen der Online-Integration)
09:49:42 <yayachiken> Punkt 1 reicht allen Leuten gegenüber aus denen ich Rechenschaft ablegen muss.
09:50:16 <fell> Wenn der Depot-Auszug kommt mußt du das dann entsprechend aufteilen.
09:54:04 <yayachiken> Ich glaube, ich bin jetzt einfach mal froh dass Gnucash mir negative Anteile erlaubt, und führe das so als Fake-Verbindlichkeit, auch wenn das ein bisschen Murks ist. Dass da dann als Aktivkonto rote Zahlen stehen, kann ich ignorieren, ich weiß ja was da eigentlich passiert und so oft wird die Zahl der Aktien nicht fluktuieren.
09:57:34 <fell> Letztendlich kenne ich deinen Belegstapel eure Abmachungen nicht. Du mußt die also selbst überlegen, wie du mit möglichst wenig Aufwand zu einem hinreichend genauen Ergebnis kommst.
09:58:56 <yayachiken> Auf jeden Fall vielen Dank für den Input!
10:00:52 <yayachiken> Nebenbei: Gnucash ist übrigens eine sehr schöne Software :)
10:02:10 <fell> Simon, I mentioned alternative approachs: ! file per child or Equity accounts… for each child.
10:02:51 <fell> Danke, steckt auch viel Aufwand drin. ;-)
10:03:19 <yayachiken> Bist du einer der Entwickler?
10:04:11 <Simon> the request was to not have the assets show up [in reports] while also have the account match the bank account, I don't think Equity accounts will do that?
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10:44:34 <chris> jralls: distraction on 798408 - maybe the budget editor on master isn't quite debugged. i'm not sure why the reverse-accounts isn't being handled properly there. i'll revert latest merge on master and redo PR with a collaborator?
10:50:08 <chris> (or maybe not)
10:50:40 <chris> gtg
11:05:32 <chris> CDB-Man: hands are unfortunately ful!
11:27:45 <TreadLight> hey, does any one know how I can have accounts auto created (like with QIF) with CSV files?
12:13:24 <fell> @tell yayachiken ja
12:13:24 <gncbot> fell: The operation succeeded.
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17:39:00 <calvin> Tsetest
17:39:14 <calvin> wew it works now
17:40:04 <calvin> Pretty crazy people still use IRC tbh
17:41:26 <calvin> Alright so I'm having an issue installing the online price retrieval module... it's got a gigantic error log
17:42:12 <calvin> oops I closed it
17:49:19 <calvin> https://pastebin.com/xJiTv22P
17:49:31 <calvin> wait I just saw the message at the end, I need an api key
17:57:15 <calvin> welp I got an api key and added it in edit>preferences>online quotes, and still getting the same error
17:57:40 <calvin> maybe I need to install finance::quote? idk how though
18:00:48 <calvin> alright wiki ftw
18:09:15 <calvin> hmmmmm so when I read the help file it says you install F::Q by running that exe that is throwing that error....
18:09:45 <calvin> aka run the exe that tells me to run that exe
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