2021-11-04 GnuCash IRC logs
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10:29:17 <chris> ugh warlord time to disable bugzilla and remove spam
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12:50:37 <fell> This Ahmed Sayeed is slightly smarter than other spammers by hiding his links in build terminology.
13:13:32 <jralls> Only slightly, they still pop right out in the email.
13:14:27 <jralls> He might have thought he was being clever by commenting on closed bugs, figuring that they wouldn't generate mail. Didn't work.
13:38:59 <jralls> chris, how are you benchmarking autoclear?
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16:23:31 <chris> jralls: cd build, ninja, ctest -V -R test-autoclear
16:51:24 <jralls> Where are the times coming from?
17:00:08 <jralls> chris?
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19:25:20 <chris> jralls: the times are shown by Googletest
19:27:19 <jralls> chris, OK.
19:27:33 <chris> https://pastebin.com/raw/U3W1ZHXz mine
19:27:48 <chris> compiling yours...
19:28:58 <chris> the sack.reserve(nc_vector.size()*4) is a very conservative estimate1
19:30:36 <chris> yours goes down to 193ms :)
19:32:50 <jralls> Interesting. I got a much larger improvement--40ms vs 180ms for yours.
19:33:53 <chris> maybe clang is much more clever!
19:34:34 <jralls> Maybe. More likely that clang's libc++ is less crufty that gcc's libstdc++.
19:36:42 <jralls> For a better estimate of sack's size do you think nc_vector.size()*(int)log2(nc_vector.size()) is enough or is it going to be nc_vector.size()^^2?
19:37:04 <jralls> Heh, mixed my fortran and pascal.
19:37:48 <chris> wel worst case scenario is 2^size-1
19:39:05 <jralls> Ugh.
19:39:35 <chris> wel worst case scenario is 2^(nc_vector.count_unique().size())-1
19:40:37 <jralls> That's only a little better.
19:44:10 <chris> gtg brekkie for baba
19:44:30 <jralls> ;-)
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20:38:52 <fell> Fortran reminds me of the nights at the card puncher. ;-)
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20:45:53 <gnucashout> Most of my recent searches pull stuff from 2012, so I came here to get some up to date information.
20:46:19 <gnucashout> You guys likely know more about this scenario than I ever have. I have a client on Quickbooks 2018, and it seems like quickbooks is forcing a huge subscription model onto people.
20:47:01 <gnucashout> I can't get his bank feed to pull any data down, and this might be the right time to just switch over to gnucash. He literally only needs to calculate profit and loss statements so he can occasionally pay taxes, prove shit to insurance companies, and get loans.
20:47:35 <gnucashout> The question is if I can set up gnucash to let me do that pretty painlessly and grab the last year's worth of data so I can start classifying it. Does gnucash have a magical method of autoclassifying recurrent bills, etc etc?
20:49:48 <fell> https://code.gnucash.org/docs/C/gnucash-help/trans-import.html#trans-import-matcher
20:51:22 <gnucashout> fell: Oh, interesting. Sorry if it's irritating to mention the QB word, and let me know if it is, but in Quickbooks, you classify a vendor or whatever along with the auto-import feed. Does gnucash care about vendors, etc?
20:53:02 <chf> How old are you, fell? When I was a young student, the remains of old card punchers got recycled in the university's library as those "cards with labels like in the catalogue", while I've never, ever seen a puncher at work.
20:54:03 <fell> 1978 ReZe Aachen
20:54:25 <chf> Oh, da war ich 11.
20:55:52 <fell> In Amelings Museom bei Gut Melaten steht bestimmt noch einer.
20:55:53 <chf> 1986 bin ich an die RWTH gekommen und da steckten die Dinger nur noch in Büchern.
20:56:06 <gnucashout> Actually, now that I think about it, I'm thinking of importing an ENTIRE YEAR into gnucash for this guy. If I do that and classify certain transactions, it won't remember those preferences later down the line in the same import, right?
20:56:08 <chf> Da war ich nie, muß ich zugeben.
20:56:14 <gnucashout> Do I need to separate my data by month?
20:56:44 <chf> Gnucash has a "magical" import helper to suggest the correct "other" account based on past choices, gnucashout.
20:57:20 <fell> gnucashout: Start with small chuncks of data
20:57:33 <gnucashout> Interesting. I hope I can do that from his bank.
20:57:46 <fell> and alwaysa assign them right.
20:57:59 <gnucashout> lmao, is it a huge pain to go back and re-assign en masse?
20:58:26 <chf> This is based on a "learning" Bayesian filter, so yes, "wrong learning" is bad.
20:59:21 <fell> Bayes is nonly active onimport assignment, not later.
20:59:39 <chf> Re-assigning is done by hand – one transaction at a time, typically.
20:59:44 <gnucashout> daaaamn
20:59:50 <gnucashout> i'll keep that in mind. i know i'm going to flub this somehow
21:00:04 <gnucashout> the big question is if i can export stuff in a manner that will be manageable by an external accountant using quickbooks
21:00:09 <gnucashout> since i'm not the one filing
21:00:13 <fell> If you downloaded a year, split it!
21:00:22 <gnucashout> I haven't yet, luckily.
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21:03:35 <fell> Gnucash has CSV export
21:03:58 <fell> and several import formats
21:03:59 <chf> You cannot export to a native QB format, but to CSV files, one line per split transaction with one "master line" (having the transaction's date and common fields).
21:04:02 <gnucashout> is someone going to kill me for CSV?
21:04:28 <gnucashout> also, speaking of import, looks like the bank has csv, ofx, qfx, and qbo; which is the best for me to use for import?
21:04:56 <chf> You should test that.
21:05:04 <gnucashout> lmao
21:05:09 <gnucashout> getting killed, or the variety of import formats?
21:05:46 <gnucashout> it'd be super chill mega cool if i could just download them from the whole "bank feed" setup that i had in quickbooks IN GNUCASH; is that a thing, too, where it can just ask the bank for new files?
21:05:47 <chf> The format with the most information is the best format for you.
21:06:32 <fell> Try OFX and QFX at first.
21:07:10 <fell> CSV is more a general fallback.
21:07:24 <gnucashout> interesting.
21:07:58 <gnucashout> i don't know what advice is like when it comes to this thing, but this guy, as a sole proprietor of a business, often transfers money to/from personal accounts instead of using the simpler pipeline of payroll-to-himself, though that's changed most of this year
21:08:13 <gnucashout> do i need to get all of those personal accounts into the feed as well so i can properly track how that money lives and dies in the business?
21:08:23 <gnucashout> (just curious which accounts in total I need to set up for him)
21:09:07 <fell> But sometimes banks add lines which are not part of the standard.
21:09:14 <gnucashout> oh boy
21:09:29 <chf> You could also create ONE "personal" account for all those "to-/from-private" transactions.
21:10:10 <gnucashout> oh, interesting
21:10:29 <fell> If he gave you access, it might be easier for you to import and filter the private accouunts.
21:11:14 <gnucashout> Ah, okay. I'll do that.
21:12:39 <gnucashout> I'm thinking about downloading the entire year, but I'll avoid it and just download one month at a time into each section
21:14:04 <chf> You can also split the file per hand in a text editor, when using a text format like OFX or CSV.
21:14:41 <gnucashout> He's got like 13 accounts that aren't always necessarily interlinked; if there are "unresolved transactions" from those accounts, is that going to be part of the format that I can just leave unresolved, or is that going to mess up the entire accounting?
21:14:42 <chf> It might be easier, and less error-prone, to download smaller chunks, however.
21:15:30 <chf> You should assign everything, so begin with small data chunks.
21:15:49 <gnucashout> Does that mean I should begin with just one account, though?
21:16:30 <chf> On the end, after the bayesian learning process, it should almost always find the correct "other" account.
21:16:36 <gnucashout> Oh, interesting.
21:16:37 <chf> In the end
21:16:41 <gnucashout> lmao
21:17:37 <chris> jralls: I wonder if my assumption "all account splits' denoms are identical" is the same. probably not. if they are not then autoclear should bail.
21:17:52 <chf> If you import one file, it will ask you to which account this goes.
21:19:14 <chf> It then will suggest as the "other" account a generic one (auto-created); you should NOT use this, but assign this second account individually due to your accountingh standards.
21:20:16 <jralls> chris, it's not a safe assumption because fractions can get reduced. You can keep using amount.num for the hash but you should retrieve the amount from the split for any computation.
21:20:34 <chf> The bayesian importer will learn from your choices based on re-occuring patterns, and should suggest correct assignments for the next chunk of data.
21:21:38 <jralls> chris Oh wait, that still won't work for retrieving toclear_value from the sack at the end.
21:21:48 <chf> You should always verify if the automatic suggestions are correct, and if not, re-assign them.
21:22:28 <jralls> chris so you need to actually hash the whole gnc_numeric too.
21:22:35 <chris> ugh
21:23:15 <chris> shame... in my books no numerics were reduced
21:23:40 <chf> So, gnucashout, the amount of manual work largely depends on "re-occurring patterns" in the transactions.
21:24:49 <gnucashout> chf: Oh, I've exported ALL the accounts at once into ofx files. Should I instead export them to each account individually?
21:25:07 <chf> If there are many, and few choices, you will soon be able to import large amounts of data at a time, and just look over the suggestions of Gnucash, then make a few changes, then confirm.
21:25:16 <gnucashout> That sounds really sick.
21:25:22 <jralls> chris and there's still a possibility that either toclear_value or reachable_amount got reduced differently.
21:25:53 <chf> Its there one OFX file for one account?
21:26:16 <gnucashout> chf: I could make it one-to-one and make more folders; it's just more lcicks
21:26:17 <gnucashout> clicks**
21:26:22 <gnucashout> but if it makes import easier, I'll click all day
21:26:26 <chf> I'm not in "OFX-land", so habe no experience with this format.
21:26:37 <chf> have
21:27:25 <gnucashout> looks like there's a <BANKACCTFROM> field in ofx
21:28:38 <chf> If you are at the beginning of the whole process, thus do not have an existing Gnucash file with old data, you can make as many test files as you like, and if not, use a backup for experimentation.
21:30:10 <chris> jralls: from 193ms to 655ms :(
21:30:50 <chf> I've only used the CSV importer, and that doesn't do "automatic 'account-from' determination".
21:32:53 <chris> jralls: hence my initial wish to bail if a denom doesn't toe the line
21:33:25 <gnucashout> chf: Good point. I'm gonna try that out.
21:34:57 <chf> For the record: I've used the CSV format to import YEARS of data into my current Gnucash file by use of pre-processing the CSV, and experimenting with the Bayesian filter.
21:35:20 <chris> ok gtg now
21:35:24 <gnucashout> Daaaamn. That's cool.
21:35:43 <gnucashout> Tempting to just use the CSV, though I'll get back to you with the ofx
21:35:55 <chf> This is, however, a file for online-banking only, so NOT a complex account hierarchy.
21:36:04 <gnucashout> lmao, i assume you do real business
21:36:37 <chf> Of course, but i still don't have "professional accounting" in place.
21:39:01 <chf> There is no way to tell you the "most easy way" beforehand, gnucashout, because this would require exact knowledge about the bank's file formats and "typical contents".
21:40:07 <gnucashout> very true; and i assume the more i do this restructuring, the faster I'll get, lmao
21:40:14 <gnucashout> i might take his files home and just experiment with a bunch of setups
21:40:23 <gnucashout> i assume one of the defaults like the "common accounts" will be a good start?
21:40:32 <gnucashout> or maybe business accounts
21:40:45 <gnucashout> yep, man, this interface is nice
21:41:24 <chf> Yes, I recommend experimenting. Just make a file with those accounts you think you will need, and ust a backup copy of this for experiments.
21:41:39 <chf> use
21:41:59 <gnucashout> Thanks a ton for all this, by the way; you probably already could tell in the tone how much I appreciate having immediate help like this, especially from someone experienced.
21:42:29 <gnucashout> That's one thing I can't ever glean from searches and fora; you can't tell if the person really knows what they're talking about, or if they're just copying the voice from some ancient handbook of "customer service inflection."
21:42:39 <chf> Refine the file structure as needed.
21:43:25 <gnucashout> oh right, i need to set opening balances
21:43:29 <gnucashout> i wonder if ofx contains that
21:44:02 <chf> Oh, I'm not THAT experienced, I'm not an accountant, and not a "Gnucash expert", I just have created 1 and a half account templates, and experimented a bit while using Gnucash for online banking.
21:44:29 <gnucashout> You ever feel like when you started doing this that you'd like to do accounting?
21:44:45 <gnucashout> I also wonder, how do full CPAs feel about gnucash?
21:45:08 <gnucashout> When you said you created 1.5 account templates, do you mean FOR gnucash? I'm looking at your work right now?
21:46:45 <chf> Yes, entered one by hand for Gnucash, and heavily overworked another, but you are unklikely to see them, unless you set LANG=de_DE.
21:47:40 <chf> A "CPA" is an "accountant"? They will typically miss "automatisms" for their tax and trade jurisdiction in Gnucash.
21:50:06 <chf> And I do not exactly liek accounting, but our family businesses have grown (not in money, but complexity) to a degree that makes it difficult to live without propoer accounting.
21:50:10 <chf> like
21:59:46 <gnucashout> Ah, I see.
22:00:14 <gnucashout> Iiiiinteresting. when the import transaction matcher comes up, I should look more into what to do next.
22:00:40 <gnucashout> nevermind, the help is fkn awesome
22:00:41 <gnucashout> this is the best
22:01:22 <gnucashout> Now when I need to select a "transfer account," am I right in assuming I'm just telling it that money moved from one account to another?
22:01:57 <chf> The transaction matcher window will contain the whole import file – therefore it is wise to begin with a small set of data.
22:02:13 <chf> Yes, that's the whole idea.
22:02:28 <gnucashout> Interesting; it definitely would do that with csv, though it's actually doing this only once per account, it seems, for the ofx
22:04:32 <gnucashout> Oh, interesting. Where do I technically count dividends as coming from?
22:05:24 <gnucashout> I'll ask google that one.
22:06:00 <chf> Oh, make something like /FOO/<stocks>/<dividends> ?
22:06:51 <chf> Or even per individual "paper"?
22:07:00 <gnucashout> this software RULES
22:07:11 <gnucashout> i like this infinitely more than quickbooks already; it's so damned responsive
22:07:22 <gnucashout> i remember joining and asking about this stuff in 2016 and people were like "the interface needs help"
22:07:31 <gnucashout> the hell are they talking about, maybe in terms of modern flat design or some trend
22:07:39 <gnucashout> but the interface is so much better already than the way everything else works
22:07:48 <gnucashout> i think the fact that accounting isn't that insane of a process might have something to do with it
22:07:55 <chf> "My" non-profit uses an OLD QB version: I know what you're talking about.
22:10:16 <chf> I especially like that you can type directly into any field, rather than using forms resembling bank forms on "dead tree" like QB does enforce.
22:11:38 <chf> No "pseido invoices" or "pseudo credit transfers" just to get a transaction entered.
22:16:30 <gnucashout> oh, speaking of that kind of thing, i've been right clicking to do the transfer account; can i just type it in somewhere on the import form?
22:21:56 <chf> You can also double-left-click instead; and in the form (the same one when right/double-clicking), perform a search by typing the beginning letters of the target account.
22:22:14 <gnucashout> ah, cool cool
22:22:21 <gnucashout> those are the interface cheats we get in FOSS
22:22:24 <gnucashout> the ones that matter
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22:23:09 <chf> However, you'll get the first account with a matching character sequence.
22:23:36 <chf> So when many account names are similar, that won't help much.
22:24:18 <gnucashout> that's still really cool
22:24:45 <gnucashout> also, chf, i'm in the default business accounts, and i'm curious if other businesses have this: he often has a charge that's a "reimbursable expense," where it's part of the job to make that expenditure
22:25:07 <gnucashout> is there already an account i'm not seeing that this activity falls under? i'm gonna make the quickbooks-esque account if it's not already a thing, lol
22:27:17 <chf> I'm not an accountant, and especially not very experienced in the "anglo-saxon accounting habits" (where you seem to be active due to the bank using OFX).
22:28:39 <gnucashout> ah, good to know that there's a difference
22:28:55 <gnucashout> it's really a specific trend of accounting?
22:29:05 <chf> You can wait for CDB-man who is a professional accountant, and is also aware of the subtle differences in use on this planet, as well as experienced in Gnucash.
22:29:25 <gnucashout> i can't believe you'd sell him out like that. ;P
22:29:33 <gnucashout> i can definitely wait
22:30:16 <gnucashout> i can't believe this is as simple as it is. the gnucash tutorial implies to people that it's such a delicate process that you can't just go in blind, and i'm not entirely new to the concepts, but it really is well done.
22:30:35 <chf> There's the "continential european point of view", and the "anglo-american" one, those are following the same general standards, of course.
22:31:37 <chf> Gnucash is – due to its origin – more suited for the "US-american way".
22:33:08 <chf> In Germany, for example, we've a number of standard account templates which almost all professional tax advisors use.
22:34:02 <chf> There is no obligation to use one of those, but it makes life easier, as soon as you need professional help one day.
22:34:46 <chf> This might be true in your place as well…
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22:45:39 <chf> Oh, I almost forgot: the choice of available templates in Gnucash depends on the language you've set before starting the programme, gnucashout.
22:46:23 <gnucashout> Oh, it does? That's kinda cool. So my english decision changes it? Does it change for UK english, or is that a thing?
22:46:24 <chf> So the "standard business template" isn't the same everywhere.
22:46:34 <gnucashout> You're a cherman? that's neat
22:46:43 <chf> Yes, it does.
22:46:45 <gnucashout> that's good to know if i'm gonna ask more dumb questions, too
22:47:04 <chf> en_GB might be different from en_US
22:47:34 <chf> You need to test or ask somebody who knows for sure.
22:49:19 <chf> If there is a US or UK specific "special" business account template to be added to Gnucash, it is likely to be added under the proper country only.
22:50:34 <chf> Complex professional templates are normally heavily dependent on local tax legislation, so Gnucash does not show the whole set available.
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22:52:40 <chf> The "simple" templates (for personal or very small business use) are translated to the local languages, but those are equal in different de_* or en_*.
22:53:22 <gnucashout> That's crazy good for free software.
22:54:15 <fell> jralls, with current maint I get a crash on File->New
22:55:31 <chf> You can, however, change LANG=that_of_desired_template start Gbucash with this active, and after initially choosingt the taplate, change back the active language to whatever you want.
22:55:47 <chf> the template
22:56:46 <chf> Templates ar only sets of account hierarchies, you can "import" them even over one another.
22:58:21 <chf> In your Gnucash files, they remain as is: they don't get "magically translated".
22:58:41 <gnucashout> Ohhh interesting. My accounts in the import flow had their account numbers attached to them. Now, in the "edit account" situation, I can't see those account numbers.
22:58:53 <gnucashout> Can I put that account number into "account code?" Is that what that's for?
22:59:17 <chf> I'll have a look.
22:59:33 <gnucashout> Uh oh, I don't think I can set a starting balance AFTER I've made the account, either. I should have done it earlier.
22:59:52 <fell> In the CoA at the column header is an arrow.
23:00:05 <fell> It offers additional columns.
23:00:27 <chf> You can "edit" any account.
23:01:55 <chf> Oh, I see, you cannot change the starting balance. No real problem: add a starting balance transaction by hand.
23:02:23 <fell> Someone created a uk-VAT template.
23:04:24 <fell> The rest of the GB templates are only translations (…zation vs. …sation etc.)
23:04:44 <chf> In the ADD/EDIT window for accounts there is the FIRST field: the account's name, the 2nd: the account's number, the 3rd: the description.
23:07:33 <chf> In "my" templates I've set the "name" to <Number Name>, the "number" to <Number>, and the "description" to <Name>. This helps when entering accounts by typing, but isn't generally the case in templates.
23:09:52 <chf> If you are working for a business in UK, it's probably best to use the UK-VAT template, like fell said, gnucashout.
23:10:35 <gnucashout> nah, luckily, i'm US-bound, too
23:10:50 <chf> You can delete unneeded accounts, or – probably better – make them invisible.
23:10:53 <fell> IIRC it was written before BRExit
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23:16:18 <chf> "luckily"? I'm really not shure where the idiocracy currently is greater…
23:20:30 <fell> Donald has been gone, but B oris is still there. ;-)
23:20:33 <gnucashout> lmao
23:21:00 <gnucashout> luckily in terms of being in the origination zone of the software; not much else luck is afforded by this location
23:29:26 <chf> Yes, fell, but I've got the impression that Biden just doesn't SAY: "America first!". This might be an attractive habit for a US citizen, but is probably not what the USA really need.
23:39:58 <fell> jralls, the crash happens only, if alreadxy a file is open.
23:42:11 <fell> chf: He is smat enough to tell Marcon "I am sorry that you lost the subs deal."
23:42:19 <gnucashout> it'd be kinda cool if i could see all accounts at one time during the ofx import and match the transaction amounts automatically
23:42:40 <gnucashout> maybe i can do that by adding it to a temporary bookkeeping account and then sorting by amount in the later setup
23:42:43 <gnucashout> hmmmmm.
23:43:41 <gnucashout> Is that a valid tactic? Can I say that certain transactions are from the TEMP_TRANSMATCH account if I don't know what they're from (my bank doesn't help with account numbers, usually), and then match them later and modifying the transfer account? I can't see wy not.
23:43:42 <gnucashout> Why**.
23:44:40 <chf> Please think again: letting the bayesisan programme "learn" a "common", but wrong account, makes that choice rather permanent, gnucashout.
23:45:14 <gnucashout> ah, true true. speaking of that, is there a way to tell the bayesian program to forget all of my terrible mistakes?
23:45:58 <chf> In newer Gnucash-versions: I think there is, never used it, however.
23:47:06 <gnucashout> wild.
23:47:13 <chf> Found it, gnucashout: Menu "tools"
23:47:15 <gnucashout> this is cool as hell. second month is importing everything according to the cool stuff
23:48:22 <chf> There's one menu entry for editing the bayesian filter's "dictionary".
23:49:12 <chf> Can't tell the exact name NOW, because I'd have to restart with en_US set.
23:49:39 <chf> There you can delete individual wrong choices.
23:51:21 <chf> Or "stupid conditions", like the filter relying on the amount of one cent being transferred.
23:57:47 <gnucashout> Yeah, you don't have to worry about testing for me, though I really appreciate the effort, because that's something a lot of people fail to do these days when helping
23:58:09 <gnucashout> also, lmao, interesting filters. does it tend to overtrain? it seems like it's doing incredibly well, so i should check out the setup
23:59:31 <chf> You should only delete entries, when it consistently makes wrong choices.