2021-10-06 GnuCash IRC logs

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12:48:03 <fell> gjanssens, T. Boerner thinks he has the same issue liike K. Dahlke with prefs update. See @ -user
12:54:11 <fell> https://code.gnucash.org/builds/win32/build-logs/maint/2021-10/build-maint-2021-10-06-03-01-02.log: Error during phase checkout of bdw-gc: ########## Error running git remote update origin
12:55:08 <gjanssens> fell: I saw his message. I'm still waiting for someone to open a bug to start debugging.
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13:01:18 <fell> Thomas answered very quick on -de. Klaus seems more AFK.
13:05:53 <fell> From yesterday's win build in the docs we have:
13:05:54 <fell> Writing toc.hhc
13:05:56 <fell> -- Searching for anchors...
13:05:57 <fell> error : No such file or directory
13:05:59 <fell> http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.5/dbcentx.mod:316: warning: failed to load external entity "http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.5/ent/isoamsc.ent"
13:06:00 <fell> SOamsc;
13:06:53 <fell> … I: Install complete: 0 files copied
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13:34:59 <Joc> The exchange rate does not work as expected, the conversion is not not accurate, see https://imgur.com/a/FYtqf4A
13:37:44 <Joc> The math does not work either, 3007.49+122.46=3129.95 but I get an extra 8 cents
13:38:23 <Joc> The PayPal account is USD, the other two are CAD.
13:40:24 <Joc> In the exchange window, I´ve tried to enter the exchange rate and also the converted value, but still the math does not works.
13:44:29 <Joc> I´ve tried the exchange 3007.49/2304.18 or 2304.18/3007.49 depending on which way I go, but both directions fails
13:49:25 <Joc> I don´t understand how GnuCash deals with the exchange rate
13:55:20 <Joc> Also, why the Expenses and Income accounts ask for the exchange rate, but not the Asset one, what rate GnuCash uses to do the conversion?
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14:01:56 <Joc> also, after deleting all the numbers, from the income account, when I type a number into the asset and press enter, the number disappear
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14:35:27 <warlord> Joc, the way it works is that the transaction has a common currency, which it gets from the account from which the transaction was created. Then each Split has a currency/commodity which is associated with the Split's account. In your case it sounds like the transaction was created from the Asset account (USD) which is why you don't get an exchange rate there.
14:36:12 <warlord> Also, *changing* exchange rates on transactions that are already created can be tricky.. There could be a lot of rounding going on (because gnucash only stores the values, not the exchange rate).
14:38:08 <Joc> is there a way to check which account is the ¨master¨? I can´t remember in what order the accounts were created.
14:41:37 <warlord> Not from the UI.
14:41:40 <Joc> trying to understand your answer... thanks for answering...
14:42:11 <warlord> So gnucash stores the "amount" and "value" for each split. The "rate" is computed (amount / value, generally, although sometimes it gets inverted)
14:42:39 <warlord> But... if you change the account view, it could also change the "amounts" that it shows you to match the currency.
14:44:36 <Joc> trying to understand... what´s the difference between "amount" and "value" ?
14:45:59 <Joc> I know the numbers I should get as shown in the spreadsheet in the top left of the image, the question is how to get GnuCash to give the same results, there is something I don
14:46:03 <Joc> ´t get
14:46:03 <warlord> Amount is the number in the Split->account commodity; Value is how much that is worth in the Transaction->Currency
14:46:38 <warlord> So if Account is in Widgets and Transaction is in USD, the amount is the # of widgets, and the value is the US$ value
14:46:42 <warlord> (of those widgets)
14:59:28 <Simon> Joc: it's not the order of the account that matters, it's which account you were in when you created the transaction
14:59:34 <Simon> order of the account creation*
14:59:45 <Joc> trying to understand your answer.... when I get a payment in PayPal, it´s in USD, some of that is taken as fees in USD, that gives a total in USD, now I work mostly in CAD, so the initial payment and the fee has to be converted in CAD for the income tax, and created two accounts in CAD for those. So I initially entered the numbers in PayPal accounts first, and entered the exchange rate when GnuCash asked for it, but when I look at the
14:59:45 <Joc> customer account, I don´t get the number I would expect
15:03:02 <Joc> customer account in CAD
15:03:14 <warlord> Are you using the business features? Or doing this manually?
15:03:23 <Joc> manually
15:04:34 <warlord> Okay, so what numbers, exactly, do you enter?
15:04:44 <Joc> the business features is something I´ve not explored but intend to do eventually.
15:05:30 <Joc> in the spreadsheet, that would be the column A
15:05:57 <Joc> https://imgur.com/a/FYtqf4A
15:07:02 <Joc> the drawing shows one of the attempt I did to get the ¨expected¨ number, but as shown, the math does not works
15:10:13 <Joc> if you wish, I can send the GnuCash file.
15:23:13 <warlord> Well, for one thing, an exchange rate of 1.30523223 has WAYY too many significant digits. GnuCash can't (and won't) handle that.. So the 6c/8c is clearly due to rounding errors due to that exchange rate.
15:24:37 <warlord> The 93.82 matches the 122.46; the 2398 matches the 3129.95 -- but the 3007.49 clearly does not match the 2304.12 (2304.18) -- so there is your 6c offset
15:29:33 <Joc> when the transfer is made from PayPal in USD to my bank in CAD, it convert the USD in to CAD, in my case, 2304.18 to 3007.49, and use those two number as the conversion ratio. But even when I directly enter the ¨value¨ I should get, when I look at the CAD account, I still don´t get the expected results.
15:35:07 <Joc> I understand about rounding errors, but why there is an extra 0.08 cent for example, when 3007.49+122.46=3129.95?
15:36:01 <Joc> that´s one example of that I mean when I say ¨the math does not works¨
15:36:43 <warlord> I got it to work for me just fine, and I get the answers you have in your spreadsheet.
15:37:01 <Joc> oh???
15:37:13 <warlord> Yep.
15:38:26 <Joc> ok, then, why my GnuCash gives me different results??? This is really odd.
15:41:30 <Joc> as I said, I can send the GnuCash file if you wish.
15:42:25 <Joc> trying to exit and restarting GnuCash....
15:43:20 <warlord> No need. Start over. Enter the transaction from your Paypal (USD) account. Enter all the amounts as USD values. So 2304.18 to Paypal, 93.82 to Bank Fees, and then 2398 to Income (CAD). When you enter the 2398 and tab off and the exchange-rate dialog comes up, select "choose value" and enter 3129.95
15:43:28 <warlord> No need to exit/restart.
15:43:35 <warlord> Just re-do this transaction
15:44:49 <warlord> Joc, https://pasteboard.co/eY0seZfwu0xK.png
15:46:23 <Joc> you´re getting exactly what I expect! being a little frustrated and puzzled!
15:48:12 <Joc> restarted GnuCash. Re-entering the numbers as indicated...
15:56:53 <Joc> deleted all the numbers, then, 1) 2304.18 to Paypal entered, 2) 93.82 to Bank Fees entered, it asks for xch rate, I entered ¨to amount¨ 122.46, 3) 2398 to Income , it asks for xch rate, I entered ¨to amount¨ 3129.95
15:58:04 <Joc> looking at the customer account in CAD, I get 3,007.57, I should get 3,007.49
15:59:34 <Joc> you said that you got one exchange-rate dialog, I got two
16:05:29 <warlord> Why is it asking for an exchange rate for the bank fees?
16:06:03 <warlord> Your bank fees are in USD, aren't they?
16:06:20 <Joc> the bank fees account is CAD
16:06:27 <warlord> Why?
16:06:50 <warlord> The paypal fees are in USD, aren't they?
16:07:12 <Joc> right, the bank fees are withdraw in USD by PayPal, but I need to keep a total of all the bank fees in CAD
16:08:15 <Joc> and a total of all the customer incomes
16:08:34 <warlord> Don't do that. Keep the bank fees in USD and use the reports to convert.
16:09:00 <Joc> ?
16:11:00 <warlord> The alternate option is to enter the transaction from your CAD Income account, enter all the amounts as CAD value, and then do the inverse for the Paypal USD account.
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16:12:07 <warlord> (if you MUST keep track of bank fees in CAD)
16:12:28 <warlord> But the reports will happily show you the USD fees in CAD.
16:13:33 <Joc> still thinking about your answer, but also, wondering why I get 3007.57 instead of the 3007.49, what does GnuCash does to calculate that?
16:13:45 <warlord> it's a rounding error
16:14:29 <warlord> It's re-using the same (rounded) exchange rate. In my test I only had ONE CAD split; you have 2.
16:14:29 <Joc> any idea of what math GnuCash uses to get that result?
16:14:38 <warlord> the first one you enter
16:15:31 <Joc> I have tried to the enter the numbers from the CAD account, but still, I didn´t get the expected results.
16:17:06 <warlord> Joc, did you do it with a fresh transaction?
16:17:13 <Joc> I get the feeling the fact that it asks twice for an xch rate is at the root of my problem.
16:17:20 <warlord> yep.
16:17:34 <warlord> This transaction has 3 splits, right?
16:17:44 <warlord> Paypal, Bank Fees, and Income, right?
16:18:24 <Joc> no, didn´t try with a fresh transactions, but that´s something I´ve seen for a long time, and never solved.
16:19:09 <Joc> still reading your answers...
16:21:30 <Joc> right, as shown in the image, there are 3 splits, initial payment, bank fee, total.
16:22:00 <warlord> You cannot edit this transaction from the other side properly. You need to create a NEW transaction from the Income (CAD) account, so the TXN currency is CAD. Then it'll work as expected when you set the exch-rate to the Paypal(USD) account.
16:25:45 <Joc> why a ¨new¨ transaction is needed? Is the exchange rate stored into the GnuCash file?
16:27:28 <Joc> given the number of transactions already entered, including different memos for different split, that would be a pain to re-enter everything.
16:28:49 <warlord> You need a new transction because the TXN Currency is USD and you need it to be CAD
16:29:28 <warlord> When the exch rate dialog comes up, are you entering a RATE or an AMOUNT?
16:29:43 <Joc> I tried both ways, both fails
16:29:45 <warlord> You *SHOULD* be able to enter it twice and use the AMOUNT.
16:29:55 <warlord> (but I didn't test this)
16:32:35 <Joc> what means TXN? the transaction? And when I enter the numbers from the CAD account, and so enter the reverse exchange rate, that would meant that rate would be used, no?
16:33:53 <Joc> but whatever side I ented the numbers, I don´t the expected results. Why entering a new transaction would make a difference?
16:34:11 <Joc> ented = enter
16:36:17 <warlord> Yes, TXN = Transaction.
16:36:24 <Joc> testing with a new transaction... starting from the CAD side
16:36:41 <warlord> Entering a new transaction, from the CAD Income account, will make a difference because you'll only have ONE exchange rate to enter.
16:42:40 <Joc> ok, that make sense, trying that...
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16:46:39 <Joc> Bingo!!!
16:47:17 <Joc> as said, that resulted in only one xch rate dialog
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16:47:37 <Joc> as you said, that resulted in only one xch rate dialog
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16:50:07 <Joc> but.... why would that make a difference. I believe you that´s a rounding error, but what GnuCash does internally to give that rounding error, would that be a bug?
16:54:46 <warlord> I think it is trying to re-use the exchange rate, but the rate is rounded so not exact -- which is why you get that 6c difference.
16:55:26 <warlord> Remember, the rate isn't stored, it is computed as amount/value. So you're already rounding to 2 decimal digits
16:56:28 <jralls_afk> Or more correctly it is the ratio of two numbers rounded to two decimal digits. The rate itself is exact, but it's not necessarily what you enter.
16:56:48 <Joc> I now understand what you meant by amount/value
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17:06:07 <warlord> you didn't understand that / is division?
17:06:45 <warlord> I suppose if I said amount÷value -- would that have helped?
17:09:16 <Joc> yes, I understood that, that´s what I´ve been using when entering the xch rate. It was the terminology, to me ¨amount¨ and ¨value¨ were synonyme
17:10:51 <warlord> But they are not. If you have a CAD split into a USD transactions, the amount is in CAD, and the value is in USD
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17:11:02 <warlord> s/transactions/transaction
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17:12:23 <Joc> yes, I now understand that, at the beginning I did´t, when you first mentioned those two words
17:12:56 <warlord> I said this at 14:46:03: <warlord> Amount is the number in the Split->account commodity; Value is how much that is worth in the Transaction->Currency
17:13:23 <warlord> But whatever; you understand it now.
17:14:12 <Joc> trying to think what would be the logic used by GC, when starting from the USD side, when I entering the total 2304.18, GC does not ask for an xch rate, so I assume it uses the amount/value from the other splits, I guess the first split, and given that is not the ratio used by PayPal, it gives unexpected numbers, it´s beginning to get a lot clearer now.
17:14:13 <warlord> Although I do admit I'm not sure why it has issues with multiple splits with the same foreign commodity.
17:14:46 <warlord> If Split->Account == Transaction->Currency then there is no exchange rate.
17:15:09 <warlord> So when you create the transaction from a USD account, then when you enter a split for a USD account there is no exchange rate.
17:15:29 <warlord> The Transaction->Currency is created from the currency of the account in which the transaction is created.
17:20:06 <Joc> I think I see now the problem, it has to do with the total amount, for which I don´t enter an xch rate, the problem is that rate is calculated using that ¨total¨, which PayPal gives me. So the fee and the initial are accurate because I provided the exact numbers, but the ¨total¨ is derived, and that is rounded from the other splits
17:20:48 <Joc> initial = initial payment
17:22:08 <Joc> I don´t think now that the multiple splits is the problem
17:27:02 <Joc> when I enter from the CAD, the only time it needs to convert is for the ¨total¨ and for this, I do have the exact ratio, the other two number being CAD, they don´t need conversion, and so a accurate.
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17:30:03 <Joc> the only way around that problem that I can see would be to store the xch rate.
17:42:28 <Joc> warlord, a million thanks, without you I would have never solved that problem. I´m pretty sure that I´m not the only one who had that problem, and I think that something should be done about that.
17:42:52 <Simon> if you're entering two numbers that are related in USD but converting them to CAD, you're always going to run into problems doing two separate conversions
17:43:10 <Simon> because the numbers still have to add up appropriately to some total
17:43:48 <Joc> Simon, have you seen the image that shows the problem https://imgur.com/a/FYtqf4A
17:43:58 <Simon> yes
17:44:42 <Joc> I really don´t think that the root of the problem is the double conversion
17:45:45 <Joc> I think that not enough digits are stored, giving a rounding error.
17:45:59 <Simon> it looks like the smaller amount is converted, and then the ratio for the smaller amount is used to convert the larger amount
17:46:59 <warlord> Joc, I wonder what would happen if you tried to enter the large amount first and THEN the smaller amount?
17:47:18 <Joc> yes, that´s basically it, the xch rate used by the 3 rows are different
17:47:44 <Simon> exchange rate has to be difference because the currency is limited to 2 decimal places
17:47:52 <Joc> right
17:48:12 <Simon> the problem comes when you then reuse the modified rate
17:48:46 <Joc> and so not enough digits, I think that the exchange rate should be stored
17:49:19 <Joc> it looks really bad when a simple addition gives wrong results
17:49:52 <Simon> when I'm entering USD dividends, the amount in GBP is fixed so whatever is left over I put as the withholding tax
17:50:50 <Simon> the exchange rate is stored in the price DB but whether it stores the entered rate or the truncated rate I don't know, and then which of the two it uses for the other amount is another issue
17:51:19 <Simon> there is nowhere to store an exchange rate on the transaction itself
17:51:42 <Simon> (and no requirement that all splits in the transaction have the same rate)
17:52:24 <Joc> for example 3007.49+122.46=3129.95 with an extra 0.08
17:52:57 <Joc> with multiple rates, I think that they should all be stored.
17:56:50 <Joc> warlord, entering large numbers first would reduce the problem, but not solve it, just mask it.
17:57:17 <warlord> Maybe.. It depends exactly what the problem is.
17:57:38 <warlord> But as Simon says, there is no place to store the rate.
17:58:41 <Joc> When a simple addition is wrong, most would consider that as a bug, I think that GC should store that xch rate.
17:59:56 <Simon> the first issue is to make sure the price DB rate is as entered, not truncated by the split itself
18:00:11 <Simon> that would mean that your rate (for the *day*) gets stored
18:00:39 <Simon> then check how the rate for the second split is obtained
18:01:06 <Simon> the exchange rate could vary throughout the day so it's not ideal
18:01:10 <Joc> I´ve been struggling with that issue for over two years, discussed that here a few time, that´s the first time I understand what is going on, thanks for warlord, his/her is remarkable.
18:01:30 <Simon> warlord: it could perhaps be stored in memory while editing the transaction, but then discarded
18:01:41 <Joc> missing ¨patience¨
18:02:04 <warlord> storing the exch rate could make things worse.
18:02:17 <warlord> What if the amount, value, and exch rate don't match up?
18:02:27 <Simon> no, I mean for doing additional conversions
18:02:35 <warlord> and what if different splits *DO* have different exchange rates, perhaps because they "clear" at different times?
18:02:52 <Simon> I'd need to try entering this; there are two splits so I'd expect two exchange rate dialogs?
18:02:57 <warlord> Simon, I have had multiple transactions on the same day have different rates.
18:03:12 <warlord> Simon, yes. it's a 3-split transaction
18:03:20 <Simon> if there's only one exchange rate dialog but it's implying the rate for split 2 from a truncated rate of split 1, that would be a problem
18:03:31 <warlord> 2 with A, 1 with B. So whether the txn is A or B will decide how many exch rate dialogs you get.
18:03:45 <Simon> and the fix would be to keep the untruncated rate so it can be reused
18:04:00 <Simon> I know two transactions on the same day can have different rates
18:04:01 <warlord> I don't see why you couldn't do an "amount" entry for both splits.
18:04:25 <Simon> because then you're doing the exchange rate conversion outside gnucash
18:05:06 <Simon> which is usually how I do it because I have fixed amounts I need to work with, whereas Joc is entering amounts for tax reasons so they aren't fixed by something else
18:05:44 <Simon> it's not unreasonable to be able to have gnucash do the conversion and get it right for both splits, but if two dialogs pop up you'd need to enter the same rate in both or have it remember it temporarily
18:06:52 <Simon> (remember it to present the right starting value in the second dialog, not skip it entirely)
18:08:31 <Simon> the problem with entering that transaction from the CAD side is that the 2 amounts are in USD so you'd have to do your own conversion
18:09:27 <warlord> So I just tried it from the USD Bank Account with both Bank Fees and Income being CAD.. I don't have an imbalanced transaction.. However the 2304.18 is translated into 3007.57 instead of 3007.49
18:10:07 <warlord> But the other two translations are exactly correct -- so you can have the *correct* exchanges into the accounts where they are actually denoted in CAD.
18:10:51 <Joc> I tried to do my own conversion and entered the numbers accordingly, but that failed. As far as I can tell, it makes a difference if I create that transaction from the CAD side, or from the USD side. When I start from the USD, there is no way to fix the problem.
18:14:29 <warlord> It doesn't matter which CAD transaction you enter first..
18:15:38 <Joc> I agree, but I think that the transaction has to be started on the CAD side to work.
18:22:40 <warlord> If you care about the "correct" amount shown in the conversion of the USD side, yes.
18:27:57 <Joc> being in a partnership, and comparing numbers, I always had differences that I could not explain, not a big problem, just an annoyance, but I´m pretty sure I´m not the only who noticed that problem and may have stopped trusting GnuCash because of it.
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18:34:04 <Joc> I tried to duplicate the transaction from the CAD side, but that failed. Looks like I will need to re-enter all the transactions from scratch if I want accurate date on both sides.
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20:57:07 <warlord> You can't "duplicate", Joc -- that copies the Txn currency too.
20:57:16 <warlord> You need to actually enter the data.
20:57:17 <warlord> Sorry.
20:58:28 <Joc> ok, that´s what I expecting, trying just in case.
21:01:47 <Joc> are you a developer, is the info discussed here passed along?
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21:42:08 <chris> jralls: I'm not sure test-core-utils and test-create-account are currently being launched
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