2021-06-17 GnuCash IRC logs

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09:11:58 <chris> I'm 100% sure #1029 and #1043 are safe
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09:17:54 <warlord> chf, what do you mean that the close books only works for US-style accounting?
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09:19:22 <chf> We do things differently in continental Europe, and Gnucash's account types do not match.
09:20:15 <warlord> Yes, I know you have a "Passive" type there.. But that doesn't explain why close books doesn't work.
09:20:22 <chf> So "our" account templates "misuse" the "least wrong" type in some places.
09:21:49 <chf> Main Problems: no generic "Passive" AND "Equity" can only contain "Equity" (and is used for the closing of books).
09:23:11 <warlord> You still haven't said what the problem is. Close books just wraps up all Income and Expense and throws it into Equity (Retained Earnings). How is that problematic for EU books?
09:23:17 <warlord> Or what is *missing*
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09:23:58 <chf> You cannot use Equity in EU books due to its US-centric restrcitions in Gnucash.
09:25:00 <chf> In EU style, Equity and book closing are also tied togetherm but we've sort of a „broader view“ of Equity.
09:25:10 <chf> m->,
09:26:02 <warlord> That statement doesn't make sense. Just because Equity is *more restrictive* than what you need doesn't imply you can't use it -- it implies you need something *more* (a "superset"). That doesn't explain why you can't use the (more restricted) subset at all.
09:26:08 <chf> In German account templates you have normally one main tree of type equity, which holds subtrees of OTHER types.
09:28:17 <chf> You can either label the whole tree wrong as "equity", or use another "wrong" type for the root and the "true equity" parts.
09:29:02 <warlord> That still doesn't explain why close books doesn't work.
09:29:38 <chf> Because that makes more sense, most account templates use "Fremdkapital" (opposite of "Eigenkapital" = type "Equity" in Germany).
09:30:08 <chf> The book closing function INSISTS on the type "equity".
09:30:25 <chf> So it won't work with those templates.
09:31:38 <warlord> What is the GnuCash embedded AccountType of "Fremdkapital"?
09:32:16 <chf> The solution would be to make Gnucash account types a superset of US and EU rules with the least incompatibilty possible, AND NOT change those templates to be "otherwise wrong, bit not in conflict with the book closing function".
09:35:22 <warlord> So what you're saying is: 1) GnuCash needs a new "Passiva" account type, and 2) Close Books should support closing into either "Equity" or "Passiva"?
09:35:56 <chf> What are the non-special types in english? Active, Equity, Income, Expense and 2 others, If I remember correctly. It's one of those 2: money currently in your possession, but not really yours, like a mortgage.
09:36:15 <warlord> "Active" is not a GnuCash accountType
09:36:22 <warlord> The list is in the source.. stdby..
09:36:25 <chf> No, Equity should allow subaccounts of some other types.
09:37:26 <warlord> Pardon the long cut-and-paste, from Account.h:
09:37:32 <warlord> typedef enum
09:37:33 <warlord> {
09:37:33 <warlord> ACCT_TYPE_INVALID = -1, /**< Not a type */
09:37:33 <warlord> ACCT_TYPE_NONE = -1,/**< Not a type */
09:37:33 <warlord> ACCT_TYPE_BANK = 0, /**< The bank account type denotes a savings
09:37:33 <warlord> * or checking account held at a bank.
09:37:35 <warlord> * Often interest bearing. */
09:37:37 <warlord> ACCT_TYPE_CASH = 1, /**< The cash account type is used to denote a
09:37:39 <warlord> * shoe-box or pillowcase stuffed with *
09:37:41 <warlord> * cash. */
09:37:43 <warlord> ACCT_TYPE_CREDIT = 3, /**< The Credit card account is used to denote
09:37:45 <warlord> * credit (e.g. amex) and debit (e.g. visa,
09:37:47 <warlord> * mastercard) card accounts */
09:37:49 <warlord> ACCT_TYPE_ASSET = 2, /**< asset (and liability) accounts indicate
09:37:51 <warlord> * generic, generalized accounts that are
09:37:55 <warlord> * none of the above. */
09:37:57 <warlord> ACCT_TYPE_LIABILITY = 4,/**< liability (and asset) accounts indicate
09:37:59 <warlord> * generic, generalized accounts that are
09:38:01 <warlord> * none of the above. */
09:38:03 <warlord> ACCT_TYPE_STOCK = 5, /**< Stock accounts will typically be shown in
09:38:05 <warlord> * registers which show three columns:
09:38:07 <warlord> * price, number of shares, and value. */
09:38:09 <warlord> ACCT_TYPE_MUTUAL = 6, /**< Mutual Fund accounts will typically be
09:38:11 <warlord> * shown in registers which show three
09:38:13 <warlord> * columns: price, number of shares, and
09:38:15 <warlord> * value. */
09:38:17 <warlord> ACCT_TYPE_CURRENCY = 7,/**< The currency account type indicates that
09:38:19 <warlord> * the account is a currency trading
09:38:21 <warlord> * account. In many ways, a currency
09:38:25 <warlord> * trading account is like a stock *
09:38:27 <warlord> * trading account. It is shown in the
09:38:29 <warlord> * register with three columns: price,
09:38:31 <warlord> * number of shares, and value. Note:
09:38:33 <warlord> * Since version 1.7.0, this account is *
09:38:35 <warlord> * no longer needed to exchange currencies
09:38:37 <warlord> * between accounts, so this type is
09:38:39 <warlord> * DEPRECATED. */
09:38:41 <warlord> ACCT_TYPE_INCOME = 8, /**< Income accounts are used to denote
09:38:43 <warlord> * income */
09:38:45 <warlord> ACCT_TYPE_EXPENSE = 9,/**< Expense accounts are used to denote
09:38:47 <warlord> * expenses. */
09:38:49 <warlord> ACCT_TYPE_EQUITY = 10,/**< Equity account is used to balance the
09:38:50 <chf> ACCT_TYPE_LIABILITY = Fremdkapital
09:38:51 <warlord> * balance sheet. */
09:38:55 <warlord> ACCT_TYPE_RECEIVABLE = 11,/**< A/R account type */
09:38:57 <warlord> ACCT_TYPE_PAYABLE = 12, /**< A/P account type */
09:38:59 <warlord> ACCT_TYPE_ROOT = 13, /**< The hidden root account of an account tree. */
09:39:01 <warlord> ACCT_TYPE_TRADING = 14, /**< Account used to record multiple commodity tran
09:39:03 <warlord> sactions.
09:39:05 <warlord> * This is not the same as ACCT_TYPE_CURRENCY above
09:39:07 <warlord> .
09:39:09 <warlord> * Multiple commodity transactions have splits in t
09:39:11 <warlord> hese
09:39:13 <warlord> * accounts to make the transaction balance in each
09:39:15 <warlord> * commodity as well as in total value. */
09:39:17 <warlord> NUM_ACCOUNT_TYPES = 15, /**< stop here; the following types
09:39:19 <warlord> * just aren't ready for prime time */
09:39:21 <warlord> /* bank account types */
09:39:25 <warlord> ACCT_TYPE_CHECKING = 15, /**< bank account type -- don't use this
09:39:27 <warlord> * for now, see NUM_ACCOUNT_TYPES */
09:39:29 <warlord> ACCT_TYPE_SAVINGS = 16, /**< bank account type -- don't use this for
09:39:31 <warlord> * now, see NUM_ACCOUNT_TYPES */
09:39:33 <warlord> ACCT_TYPE_MONEYMRKT = 17, /**< bank account type -- don't use this
09:39:35 <warlord> * for now, see NUM_ACCOUNT_TYPES */
09:39:37 <warlord> ACCT_TYPE_CREDITLINE = 18, /**< line of credit -- don't use this for
09:39:38 <chf> A/R and A/P = income/expense?
09:39:39 <warlord> * now, see NUM_ACCOUNT_TYPES */
09:39:41 <warlord> ACCT_TYPE_LAST
09:39:43 <warlord> } GNCAccountType;
09:39:45 <warlord> Sorry, Retained Earnings is NOT a liability.
09:39:45 * chris could hear the typewriter noises... (ding)
09:39:56 <warlord> no.. AR and AP are Asset/Liabilities..
09:40:33 <warlord> But I retract the last statement -- I can see R-E as a (negative) liability. But... really, it's equity.
09:40:43 <warlord> Income and Expense are (temporary) equity accounts.
09:40:53 <warlord> So ... rolling that up into Equity makes sense.
09:41:14 <warlord> Rolling it up into an Asset or Liability doesn't *quite* make sense... because the other side is already in an Asset or Liability.
09:41:34 <warlord> BUT... I can see the value in an account type that acts like Equity but allows non-Equity subaccounts.
09:41:38 <warlord> (sort of)
09:42:07 <chf> As you can see, it's complicated. I must have a look at the german translations – the wording there isn't necessarily the "most matching" type.
09:42:18 <warlord> It makes sense if you need multiple trees in one set of books, maybe..
09:42:35 <warlord> Also keep in mind we do have a "Root Account", which can hold any kind of account.
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09:43:27 <chf> Example of Equity tree: account template SKR49 for charities has "creditors" and "debitors" therein.
09:45:36 <chf> Well the tree structure is given and must not be changed due to technical reasons, or tax advisors and accountants will be unhappy.
09:46:33 <chf> So you can't split a tree in 2 subtrees without sacrificing the goal of using an "quasi-official" template.
09:46:44 <chf> a
09:47:19 <warlord> In SKR04, are there currently multiple accounts at the "root"?
09:47:42 <warlord> (well, I mean below the gnucash "root" account)
09:47:53 <chf> Correct, as in most SKRs and other german templates.
09:48:40 <chf> The problem is: I am not an accountant, and not a tax advisor, and those are generally not keen on making free software: they rather use it or buy something else.
09:49:32 <warlord> sorry, I asked a Yes/No question.. I don't know whether "Correct" means Yes or No.
09:51:03 <chf> I've just "made" one of those templates (Wohnungswirtschaft [real estate?]) for Gnucash, and heavily overworkes another (SKR49 [charities/non-profit]).
09:52:51 <chf> There are ALWAYS multiple main trees above the root: in all SKRs, and any other DE/AT/CH account template I've ever seen.
09:57:03 <chf> Typically active, passive, expense, income, assets, liabilities, equity/others, sometimes some types multiple times in the root, and often expense, income, assets, liabilities (or additionally) BELOW active, passive, equity/others.
09:58:22 <chf> (or additionally) means: can be root types, as well as below the generic active/passive/equity.
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10:01:44 <chf> Example for multiple occurences of the "same things" on the root level are in SKR49: they have almost equal trees for "sports" and "non-sports" duplicated there.
10:03:46 <chf> Typically the last tree in the hierarchy with the highest "main number" is of type equity, but (almost?) always with other sub-types.
10:04:20 <chf> "is of" = "should be of"…
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12:10:24 <warlord> I wonder if GnuCash needs an "Activity" account type that lets you bundle what would be a full US-centric account tree under it, which would let you have multiple Activities in parallel?
12:18:08 <chris> very odd: gncTaxTableDestroy is called soon after book *open*. _gncTaxTableDestroy is called when the book is *closed*. But taxtables are fully usable during session.
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12:23:16 <warlord> odd
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13:12:01 <chf> warlord, I had begun figuring those out since I first encountered one of the problems, I don't even know yet if the translation of the existing account types are correct in a manner such the translation covers best the actual use rather than being the result of a dictionary lookup.
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13:16:02 <chf> I think I will further investigate: finding the correspondences is easy, I just need to set $LANG; but I've some difficulties with english accounting jargon, so I might not REALLY understand what the account types are actually for. "Bank account" is easy to unterstand, some of the other ones, however, unfortunately not.
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13:17:43 <chf> So I'm sure that one of the types has been translated to "Aktiva", I don't yet know which one. Therefore I was thinking that Gnucash had an "Active" type.
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13:47:31 <jralls> chf, maybe CDB-Man can help. He's an accountant who has some familiarity with IAS.
13:49:22 <jralls> chf, but the accounting equation is universal: Assets (money you have or is owed to you) = Liabilities (money you ows) + Equity (the resulting value of the enterprise).
13:49:48 <chf> Yes, jralls, I'm currently making an example Gnucash file which illustrates the existing account types, and what types can exist below those, as well as theit translations into german.
13:51:05 <jralls> My limited understanding of the IAS way is that Active is simply a container for Assets and Passive a container for Liabilities and Equity.
13:52:19 <jralls> To answer an earlier question you had while warlord was spewing the comments on account types, Accounts Receivable is an Asset, it's money owed to you, and Accounts Payable is a Liability, it's money you owe to others.
13:52:35 <chf> It's hard for me to explain in english, because as a non-accountant I tend to forget all those details…
13:53:52 <jralls> Income and Expense are Equity. When you "close the books" you just combine them into Retained Earnings so that the Income and Expense balances show the results for the current period to date.
13:56:57 <jralls> That's universal, basic accounting, and *basic* is what GnuCash is designed for. Going beyond basics requires customizing GnuCash for the GAAP for the country with jurisdiction and there's no way that the GnuCash team can do that, so if you need more--and frankly that includes the German mandated SKR accounting standards--GnuCash just isn't the right software for you.
13:57:06 <chf> This is all quite similar to "the european way" (which is the reason we can use Gnucash rather well), I think it would be best to figure out the details with accountants or similar business people in order to finbd the best approach for Gnucash's future.
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13:57:34 <jralls> What part of we can't do that do you not undestand?
13:59:06 <jralls> And it isn't similar to the European way, it *is* the European way. Also the American way, the Chinese way, the African way. Everybody does the basics the same.
13:59:29 <chf> I don't need "advanced functions", just having a better working scheme where more "GAAPs" "match" would be nice.
14:00:12 <chf> I know, but what Gnucash does, already is a bit MORE than the basic way.
14:00:21 <jralls> Oh?
14:00:35 <chf> And this "more" is US-centric, I think.
14:00:49 <jralls> For example?
14:05:06 <chf> I'm on my way figuring out the details, but: "container types" "Active" and "Passive" are needed according to "our" accountants, and Equity in Gnucash cannot (at least in the past) have other sub-types in its tree. Currently "Assets" seems to be translated as "Active", which might not be fully correct (I'm not sure about that).
14:06:30 <chf> There are some "implicit assumptions" that just don't fit well in some places, I think.
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14:09:33 <jralls> I will stipulate that GnuCash needs to add a Passive account type, but you must substantiate your claims of implicit assumptions and behavior that's at odds with IAS practice.
14:10:49 <jralls> The Passive account type is simply a presentation difference because it has beneath it the same Liability and Equity divisions that GnuCash places at the top level.
14:10:54 <chf> I'm confident that we can find a solution that doesn't break the current state for anybody, and at the same time make Gnucash better for EU accounting in a way that certain "wrong" designations can be avoided in future. You don't see the types directly when doing the actual accounting work, but when making templates they matter, because there are some restrictions tied to those; they aren't "just names".
14:12:07 <jralls> Stop waving your arms around and give a concrete example of a "wrong designation".
14:12:43 <chf> Yes, but you cannot call all that Passive stuff "Fremdkapital" in German, like we do in most templates.
14:13:10 <jralls> That is on the folks who wrote the templates.
14:13:41 <jralls> Fremdkapital is Liabilities, right?
14:13:43 <chf> I now make a list "what is what" and where it doesn't match and why it's used there nonetheless.
14:14:28 <chf> I think so, I must have a look at that, translation-wise it would be. "What you have, but owe to others."
14:16:00 <jralls> No, it's just owe to others. A bankrupt enterprise has negative Equity because it has fewer assets than liabilities.
14:17:34 <jralls> So if your very first transaction is to borrow €1000 then you have Assets €1000, Liabilities €1000, Equity €0.
14:18:46 <jralls> If you then pay your employee €100 Assets and Equity decrease by that amount but you still owe your creditor €1000.
14:23:57 <chf> I see, and when a customer buys something for €1000, Assets and Equity raise to €1900, while Liabilities stay at €1000, which I now could pay back.
14:24:30 <jralls> Exactly.
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14:27:49 <jralls> The issue with creating an IAS chart of accounts lies in what account types GnuCash allows to be parents of other types. That's encoded at https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/blob/maint/libgnucash/engine/Account.cpp#L4487.
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14:29:39 <jralls> As you can see it's too permissive for non-equity and to restrictive for equity. It allows mixing asset and liability types but separates income and expense from equity.
14:31:42 <chf> I'd like to figure out if the german translations of those types are really used in the same way. On the "general abstraction layer" everything ist fine and world wide the same, but when I read accounting explanations for beginners, the "view" is somewhat different in german and english texts. This, english not being my native language, and the differences between "accounting jargon" and "general language" are the reasons
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14:35:57 <jralls> Does comparing the basics chapters of the Tutorial and Concepts guide in English and German help?
14:36:08 <chf> Yes, I could make a "Cash" account under a "Bank" type.
14:37:23 <jralls> Or even more illogically a Bank account under a Cash placeholder.
14:37:28 <chf> Didn't really, when I last looked at those, on this level that's almost the same much like you explained "liablities", "equity" and "assets".
14:38:18 <jralls> So the next level would be the Business chapter.
14:40:23 <jralls> And that introduces the additional concepts of cash and accrual accounting -- with a different meaning for cash than the one in Cash account type.
14:44:18 <chf> The SKR templates differentiate between "Umlaufvermögen" ("liquid" money, things you want to sell,…) and "Anlagevermögen" (what you intend to keep for a longer time), for example. Both are assets.
14:45:18 <warlord> chf, so does the US model, Current Assets and Fixed Assets. But they are just names and trees. Both are type Asset.
14:45:35 <jralls> For accounting complexity that also marks the limit of where GnuCash can go because that's the line where individual countries' accounting and tax regulations start kicking in. It's of course possible to use GnuCash in those cases but it has to be done manually and it's up to the user to learn the rules and to apply them correctly.
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14:49:21 <chf> I agree with that, of course. I just found that there are currently a few cases where Gnucash currently forces us to use "wrong names" either at one or another place. When implementing "my" 2 templates, there was no (obvious) "good" solution, and I later found that using "Fremdkapital" at one place has broken the "book closing" feature.
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14:56:01 <jralls> What is the specific "wrong name" situation there?
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14:57:36 <warlord> It'd not wrong name, it's wrong account-type. (Fremdkapital is liability)
15:02:42 <jralls> fell, you asked yesterday about mysql-connector versions. I did a mass-update of versions on gtk-osx and gnucash-on-osx but hadn't yet tested everything so I didn't propagate the changes to Windows.
15:02:49 <jralls> chf?
15:03:02 <chf> It's also a wrong name, the correct one doesn't exist/can't be used. I must look up the details, however. Using that seemed to be the best compromise at the time.
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15:04:58 <chf> German templates tend to mix "Equity" and "Others", where "Others" can be "creditor" and "debitor" accounts as well as book closing accounts all under the same tree root.
15:06:40 <fell> jralls, OK. For Flatpak we have got a PR with a boost update.Should I create it for macos & win, too,ordo you have it already in your plans?
15:07:43 <fell> chf "Creditor"?
15:08:11 <fell> did you mean liability?
15:08:30 <chf> Kunden- und Lieferanten-Konten oder für Angestellt, die ein Firmendarlehen bekommen, fell.
15:09:04 * fell just started reading the discussion.
15:09:07 <jralls> fell Boost on win is provided by mingw64. The boost libraries we use don't change that much and there's no particular reason to stay on the bleeding edge.
15:09:16 <chf> Das sind typischerweise Personen- oder Firmenkonten.
15:10:06 <chf> Gedacht als Alternative zur Buchung über normale Verbindlichkeiten und Forderungen.
15:10:32 <warlord> Creditor and Debtor accounts *could* be Equity, depending on what exactly you mean.
15:10:45 <fell> CWehli is working of 1. translation,2. review of help.
15:11:05 <fell> Guck mal in https://code.gnucash.org/docs/de/gnucash-help/acct-types.html
15:12:20 <fell> Lieferanten sind eine Spezialisierung von Fremdkapital, Kunden, Mitabeiter, … von Assets
15:12:22 <jralls> fell is CWehli an accountant? Otherwise he may fall into the same quandary that chf has.
15:12:49 <chf> Sehr schön, danke fell.
15:13:09 <fell> chf could rdeview PRs on docs, too.
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15:14:02 <fell> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash-docs/pulls
15:15:22 <chf> Well, CWehli uses terms that don't yet exist in Gnucash, like "Aktiva" (which is the translated term for "Assets" in Gnucash) and "Passiva".
15:18:16 <fell> from de.po:
15:18:17 <fell> msgid "Assets"
15:18:19 <fell> msgstr "Aktiva"
15:20:56 <fell> But you are partially right, the next is:
15:20:57 <fell> msgid "Assets"
15:20:59 <fell> msgstr "Aktiva"
15:21:06 <chf> Ah ja, fell, wie merke ich jetzt darin an, daß ich "in dem" gerne zu "im" Hauptfenster abgekürzt hätte?
15:21:27 <fell> oops,
15:21:29 <fell> msgid "Liabilities"
15:21:30 <fell> msgstr "Verbindlichkeit"
15:22:56 <chf> Das deutsche Gegenteil zu "Verbindlichkeiten" ist "Forderungen", nicht "Aktiva". Das paßt irgendwie nicht…
15:23:29 <chf> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash-docs/pull/172/commits/ff99f2132003b16ada0e9a969220feab81e78ca9
15:23:47 <chf> + "geöffenen"
15:23:50 <fell> Schalt von Conversation auf "Files changed", such die Stelle, beweg das blaue Kreuz auf die Zeile klick und Schreib
15:25:10 <chf> "leave a comment", das heißt ich kann den Text nicht "direkt" verbessern?
15:25:35 <fell> Kannst du in weblate Verbindlichkeit durch Fremdkapital ersetzen?
15:26:16 <fell> Christian bekommt dann eine Mail und es wird in Conversatoin angezeigt.
15:26:38 <fell> Dann sollte er diese seine PR verbessern.
15:27:00 <chf> OK, also einfach Fehler kommentieren?
15:27:06 <fell> ja
15:27:21 <chf> Diese l10n mache ich mal schnell.
15:30:58 <fell> Danke
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15:42:50 <CDB-Man> Sounds like I'm no longer needed anymore for this conversation!
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15:45:12 <jralls> CDB-Man, dunno. fell, chf, is the problem really just about a translation?
15:45:48 <chf> L10N fertig.
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15:48:07 <fell> In between I think, accounting software should generally written in Latin. English is missing too many terms.:-)
15:48:23 <chf> Probably not, jralls, it seems like the types are "misused" in German templates due to "historical" translations. The "type pairs" like assets–liabilities are not the same, if I understand all this correctly.
15:48:52 <CDB-Man> Well, the accounting world has an entire lexicon of terms that make sense in accounting (and not necessarily even in general commerce)
15:49:13 <jralls> Nor, I imagine, in Latin! ;-)
15:49:46 <fell> On my translation reviews, I have hoften to task the translators: Why do you not translate "Equity and Liability" by "Activa"?
15:49:47 <chf> Help_ch_GUIMenus.xml <---- (2021-06-17 21:45:47) chf: L10N fertig.
15:50:00 <chf> Doese meinte ich, da war ja noch eine…
15:50:14 <jralls> chf, do you mean the way that GnuCash allows asset accounts to parent liability accounts and vice-versa? IMO that's just wrong in any GAAP.
15:50:21 <CDB-Man> Jralls what's this thing about active and passive I saw earlier in the chat!
15:50:25 <CDB-Man> ? *
15:50:52 <CDB-Man> Well, there are contra accounts that are effectively liabilities under assets
15:51:03 <chf> No, there are "logical pairs" among the types – those are NOT the same in German.
15:51:19 <jralls> It's about whether those categories in IAS are simple containers for Assets and Liabilities + Equity respectively or if there's more to it.
15:51:20 <CDB-Man> Allowance for doubtful accounts (AFDA) is a liability under accounts receivable
15:52:16 <jralls> chf I don't understand what you mean by logical or type pairs.
15:52:25 <CDB-Man> "passive and active" do not look like terms I would see on IAS in an account tree
15:52:34 <CDB-Man> This makes 0 sense to me
15:52:53 <CDB-Man> Unless someone jargon shuffled it for something else
15:53:12 <chf> In German, "Assets" becomes "Aktiva" with no "partner" "Passiva", and obviously the english partner of "Assets" – "Liabilities" becomes "Verbindlichkeiten", which has another "logical partner": "Forderungen".
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15:53:42 <CDB-Man> This notion of passive and active only exists in taxation, not in IAD
15:53:46 <CDB-Man> IAS*
15:54:13 <jralls> CDB-Man, I think that's a different meaning of active and passive.
15:54:46 <CDB-Man> In that case, I don't see how passive or active are terminology that falls within IAS or US GAAP
15:55:23 <fell> CDB-Man, if you switch from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_sheet to continental european languages, it is always teh top level of the tructure.
15:56:10 <chf> I'll TRY to translate the meaning we use in Germany from German to English:
15:57:11 <chf> Meine Fresse, was heißt jetzt „Bilanz“ auf Englisch? Da fängt's schon an…
15:57:37 <CDB-Man> Google translates it to: "assets side (use of funds)' and "liabilities side (source of funds)"
15:57:42 <chf> Aktiva bezeichnet die Mittelverwendung und steht auf der linken Seite der Bilanz.
15:57:56 <CDB-Man> Drops the pretense of active or passive entirely
15:58:14 <fell> Balance_sheet
15:58:34 <CDB-Man> It doesn't really exist in English, the notion of active or passive. We just call it asset side or L+E side
15:58:56 <chf> Aktiva designates the "usage" of assets, and is found on the left of the balance sheet.
15:59:24 <CDB-Man> That must be a Latin language based notion then
15:59:39 <CDB-Man> Certainly not a notion in English (accounting)
16:00:09 <CDB-Man> The closest term I can think of is debit credit, but that's not quite what we're going after here
16:00:45 <CDB-Man> I'm looking at that table on German Wikipedia as I'm saying that
16:00:48 <CDB-Man> This*
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16:01:09 <jralls> "Usage" and "Source" sound like an income statement not a balance sheet.
16:01:24 <CDB-Man> Jralls yes on the surface
16:01:31 <CDB-Man> But that's not what it's talking about
16:01:46 <CDB-Man> It's definitely a balance sheet concept
16:01:59 <CDB-Man> I fully understand what the German terms are trying to capture
16:02:12 <CDB-Man> The parallel concepts simply don't exist in the same form in English
16:02:22 <CDB-Man> Hence why you're talking apples to their oranges
16:02:42 <CDB-Man> We would call it the debit side and credits side of the balance sheet
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16:02:56 <CDB-Man> That's about the closest comparable lingo I can come up with right now
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16:03:33 <CDB-Man> They would say in German (I'm guessing) total active = total passive on the balance sheet
16:03:46 <CDB-Man> I would say in English total debits = total credits
16:05:04 <fell> think of activ/passive as the nouns and debit/credit as the verbs.
16:05:13 <jralls> That's a trial balance: A proof that the books are in balance. Different from a statement of the financial position of the enterprise.
16:05:43 <CDB-Man> Jralls yes, but it ALSO applies to the balance sheet
16:06:20 <CDB-Man> On a balance sheet, all debit accounts (all assets) do equal to all liabilities and equity, which are all credit accounts
16:06:24 <CDB-Man> Hence the balance sheet balances
16:07:01 <jralls> Ah, *that* meaning of debit and credit.
16:07:05 <CDB-Man> Yes
16:07:18 <CDB-Man> See, the CONCEPT exists in English accounting
16:07:25 <CDB-Man> But there's no direct terminology for it
16:07:36 <CDB-Man> We just don't talk about it that way
16:08:12 <CDB-Man> We lack explicit words for the concept
16:08:27 <jralls> Sure there is, you just used it: debit-account and credit-account, shorthand for accounts whose balance increase with debits and those whose balance increase with credit.
16:08:37 <CDB-Man> The Germans (and presumably other Latin languages?) Decided to use active passive
16:09:10 <fell> I suspect, the continent started already accounting with roman digits und used the two sides to implement negative numbers.
16:09:35 <CDB-Man> Yeah we have a compound term in "debit account", we can't just say 'active"
16:10:14 <fell> When it arrived GB, the arabic digits had also arrived and you could use the scaled representation.
16:10:31 <CDB-Man> So now that we've cleared all this up, does this unearth some legacy incorrect translations in the continental languages for gnucash?
16:12:03 <jralls> I think it did. Also pointed out that the hierarchy restrictions are a little messed up.
16:12:25 <fell> I watched several languages, which had translates liabilitys with passive, which led to much confusion and also mistakes in templates.
16:13:04 <CDB-Man> Yeah. It sounds like passive = credit accounts is the most correct translation
16:13:34 <jralls> fell, maybe we should introduce account types ACCT_TYPE_DEBIT and ACCT_TYPE_CREDIT which those who need them can translate to Active and Passive.
16:13:37 <CDB-Man> In the sense that credit account = anything on the right-hand side of the balance sheet
16:14:17 <jralls> Using Debit and Credit in English will help English speakers understand the usage.
16:14:27 <CDB-Man> Just need to be careful about defining that, since accounts like AFDA are credit balance, but roll into asset side
16:14:42 <jralls> Or more concretely the right-hand column in a journal.
16:14:51 <CDB-Man> It is a child account of AR
16:15:18 <CDB-Man> Just like how accumulated depreciation is a credit account under the asset side
16:16:29 <CDB-Man> Fell, would accumulated depreciation be considered on the active side, even though it is a negative/credit balance?
16:16:49 <jralls> Ah, is that the meaning of "contra" in contra-account? That it increases with the other column compared to the parent?
16:17:00 <CDB-Man> Yes jralls
16:17:29 <CDB-Man> Accumulated depreciation is a contra to the fixed asset account
16:17:37 <CDB-Man> AFDA is contra to AR
16:17:39 <fell> Perhaps frakturfreak1 knows the proper answer
16:17:56 <CDB-Man> I hope the answer is "yes"
16:18:07 <jralls> So we perhaps should have ACCT_TYPE_DEBIT_CONTRA and ACCT_TYPE_CREDIT_CONTRA for those.
16:18:15 <CDB-Man> That works
16:18:32 <CDB-Man> Debit contra are much more common than credit contra
16:18:36 <CDB-Man> But both can exist
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16:19:05 <fell> https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=421766
16:19:41 <CDB-Man> A bond discount world be a contra to the bond payable credit account for a bond issued by the company
16:20:19 <CDB-Man> Discount or premium... Even I get this mixed up
16:20:22 <CDB-Man> I would have to check
16:20:54 <jralls> Companies issuing bonds are probably out-of-scope for GnuCash. Is there an example for a bank or personal loan?
16:21:21 <CDB-Man> On the liability contra side, I would say it's pretty rare for small business
16:21:30 <CDB-Man> And almost non existent for personal finance
16:21:48 <CDB-Man> Asset contra much more common (AFDA, accumulated depreciation)
16:22:33 <CDB-Man> Generally a liability contra would be used for (complex) financial instruments
16:22:41 <fell> https://bugs.gnucash.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=contra&list_id=12620
16:23:15 <fell> I do not know the legal details of the contra accounts.
16:23:42 <CDB-Man> Perhaps we can copy this conversation into the first ticket for passive active, fell?
16:24:22 <CDB-Man> Hmm, on the second link, yes returns allowance would be a credit account contra indeed
16:24:25 <CDB-Man> Good find
16:24:31 <CDB-Man> Revenue being credit
16:24:46 <CDB-Man> And return allowance being a debit balance contra to that revenue credit account
16:25:03 <fell> Just link the starting time from https://lists.gnucash.org/logs/2021/06/17.html
16:25:04 <CDB-Man> I don't deal with inventory sales businesses often so I forgot about that
16:25:52 <CDB-Man> I'm connecting from phone right now, if you have it handy and open a paste into that ticket would be appreciated (and is it possible for me to be added to the cc list on that too?)
16:26:54 <fell> Into 421766? Which time?
16:27:30 <jralls> I have both windows open, I'll do it.
16:27:46 <CDB-Man> Thank you
16:28:05 <jralls> chf I'll add you too. What's your bugzilla id?
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16:50:02 <fell> chf is already in bug.cgi?id=421766
16:52:34 <jralls> fell, ah, is he that christophe?
16:53:51 <fell> christoph@
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16:55:01 <chf> fell, jralls: ID: ChristophFranzen
16:57:39 <jralls> Should we do design discussion on the bug? Adding the account types is easy and shouldn't break anything but actual implementation might require some changes to reports.
16:58:23 <fell> Last year we were unsure about the restrictions
16:59:45 <jralls> Right. I don't think we have any code for restricting an account type to placeholder. That seems to have been at least part of the issue in 2008 as well. I need to read the comments from back then.
17:00:16 <chf> No hurry now, I suggest. Let's do it right once and for all.
17:00:55 <jralls> Yes, best done in master for 5.0.
17:01:56 <chf> I've read the log now, and I think for the first time that one of the english dpeakers – CDB-Man – has understood everything correctly which I tried to say, I just couldn't exülain it myself understandably. Thank you, CDB-Man, I think zhat will help a lot.
17:02:22 <chf> speakers
17:03:07 <chf> explain
17:04:52 <chf> Oh – bugzilla, don't know – that was the GITHUB user name, jralls, fell!
17:05:02 <jralls> It helps that he's an actual accountant, so unlike the rest of us knows what he's talking about.
17:06:06 <jralls> chf, I think it's OK, fell said you were the one who commented on it last year:christoph at alte dash phlaterei dot de.
17:06:29 <chf> This one!
17:06:42 <jralls> Yeah, didn't want to put that in scrapable form.
17:07:12 <chf> Oh, gets logged on web site?
17:08:28 <fell> chf, you can ask warlord to remove the line from https://lists.gnucash.org/logs/2021/06/17.html
17:09:12 <chf> warlord, would you please do so and correct my mistake?
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17:14:32 <fell> chris needs the to associate implicit "right side of the balance sheet" with the new account type.
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17:40:12 <fell> chff, ich sehe keine Änderungen von dir in weblate.
17:40:29 <fell> chf ^
17:41:15 <chf> Habe ich auch noch nicht gemacht. Wo ist „weblate“?
17:41:49 <fell> https://hosted.weblate.org/projects/gnucash/gnucash/de/
17:46:33 <warlord> done
17:46:37 <warlord> chf,
17:47:28 <chf> Thank you very much, warlord, and my apology for the unnecessary work.
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17:51:29 <warlord> jralls, I think ACCT_TYPE_CREDIT already exists (for credit card)
17:56:25 <warlord> chf, no worries.
18:05:34 <CDB-Man> Credit card...
18:08:32 <chf> Faß ohne Boden, fell.
18:11:18 <fell> chf: Konkret ging es um msgid "Liabilities", msgstr "Fremdkapital" statt Verbindlickeit
18:12:03 <fell> Aber wenn du nicht zu bremsen bist, freut sich die Community. :-)
18:12:43 <chf> Unter anderem, das müßte man irgendwie global, aber vorsichtshalber nicht vollautomatisch machen; ich habe noch KEIN EINZIGES von den Wörtern gefunden.
18:13:20 <chf> Die Baustellen da drin sind aber auch sonst offenbar uferlos.
18:13:54 <fell> Vielleicht zunächst fehlende und fuzzy ergäänzen
18:14:38 <fell> dann die trivialen: Falsches Satzende, …
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18:15:24 <fell> Letztendlich dürften dann noch welche bleiben, wo der Quelltext verbessert werden muß.
18:16:31 <jralls> warlord, it does, and that leaks into XML files as just CREDIT.
18:17:25 <fell> https://hosted.weblate.org/translate/gnucash/gnucash/de/?offset=&q=+source%3A%3DLiabilities+&sort_by=-priority%2Cposition
18:18:30 <fell> 1 Paste + 2 clicks, ;-)
18:24:53 <chf> Wie jetzt, fell, das soll dann global in jedem Kontext richtig sein? I believe you are on the woodway.
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18:25:35 <fell> Rechts unten siehst du, wo das überall verwendet wird.
18:26:27 <fell> Für unterschiedliche Bedeutungen, müssen die Programmierer einen msgcontect beifügen.
18:28:15 <chf> „Ort der Ausgangszeichenkette“? Da sind nur so komische SCM-Dateien, also beispielsweise keine Kontenrahmen und nicht die C-Dings-Kontentypen.
18:28:50 <fell> Denkbares Beispiel "Quote": 1. Kurse, 2.Anführungszeichen, aber das hat Christan zu spät gefunden.
18:28:51 <chf> ACCT_TYPE_$FOO ändert das also nicht?
18:29:26 <fell> Die scm-Dateien sind die Berichte.
18:30:13 <chf> Es würde sich also nur an den Stellen da rechts auf der Seite auswirken?
18:30:51 <fell> Die Templates sind ja mindestens sprach-, teilweise … wie de_DE/SKR* landesspezifisch.
18:31:10 <fell> genau.
18:32:54 <chf> Na super, dann müßte man die aber da auch alle lesen, um zu sehen, ob es dann überall korrekt wird und vielleicht würde es gerade noch mehr verwirren, solange der Kontentyp, auf den der Bericht wahrscheinlich geht, noch „falsch“ heißt?
18:32:58 <fell> Im nightly flatpak müßtest du https://hosted.weblate.org/download/gnucash/gnucash/de/ testen können
18:33:30 <fell> bzw, diemo-datei
18:33:35 <chf> Kann ich nicht, das braucht ein neueres flatpak, das braucht ein neueres Debian.
18:34:21 <chf> Also so mit der groben Kelle traue ich mich da nicht ran.
18:34:31 <fell> nichts passendes in backports?
18:37:16 <fell> Heißt das, du kannst mit dem aktuell installierten flatpak (Version) in Debian (Version?) keine nightlies mehr installieren?
18:37:17 <chf> /me hat da noch ein paar Pakete auf oldoldstable rumhängen und bei einem jüngeren Update-Versuch hatte sich "sudo" zerlegt, weil da irgendwer die Abhängigkeiten verkackt hatte… es läuft gerade alles so schön, scheiß auf „Immer schön Updates machen!“ – das ist ein Rat für Windows-Trojaner-Opfer.
18:38:12 <chf> Nö, ging eines Tages nicht mehr (ca. ein Jahr her?), aber das im „Produktionsbetrieb“ geht hervorragend.
18:38:14 <fell> Nö, auh für Zero-Day-Attacken.
18:39:48 <chf> Deswegen ist mein Webserver im bösen Internet auch aktuell.
18:41:54 <chf> Ich kann das neue Gnucash natürlich auf dem Laptop testen, wenn es sein muß und meiner Mutter versuche ich gerade 4.4.BLA aus den Backports nahezubringen statt alles im Browser zu machen, wo sie dann die Kontonummern der Absender zum Zurücküberweisen und dergleichen nicht findet.
18:42:40 <chf> flatpak --version Flatpak 0.8.9
18:43:49 <chf> flatpak list -d
18:44:20 <chf> org.gnucash.GnuCash/x86_64/master-C3.8b-532-g6b55222ca-D3.8b-58-g3191b32 gnucash 698d598b8a09 - 317,5 MB system,current
18:44:29 <chf> Das ging noch.
18:44:34 <fell> Wenn der Mossad es schafft die die Siemens-Ventile der nicht vernetzten Iranischen Zentrifugen zu infizieren, findet er auch bei dir Wege, wenn du esrmal im Visier bist. ;-)
18:48:46 <chf> Ich finde dem Mossad seine Chefs zwar auch Scheiße, aber solange ich keine Atombomben baue, lohnt sich der Aufwand ja nicht.
18:49:28 <fell> Hast du nicht neulich vor der Synagoge wegen Gaza demonstriert?
18:51:20 <chf> Nein, das würde ich wenn vor dem Konsulat von Israel oder der Botschaft machen und nicht vor einem Gotteshaus. Ich demonstriere doch auch nicht vor der Kirche gegen die Bundesregierung, nur weil sich da welche unehrlicherweise „C“[D/S]U nennen.
18:52:51 <fell> Die steht doch ziemlich dicht an der Fußgängerzone
18:53:11 <chf> Was steht da?
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18:53:46 <fell> Die Synagoge, beim C&A
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18:54:06 <chf> Ach so, ja, tut sie.
18:54:40 <chf> Aber das ist kein Grund, davor gegen Israel zu demonstrieren, nicht wahr?
18:55:06 <fell> N, aber ging der Zug nicht da lang?
18:56:08 <chf> Das kann gut sein.
19:02:11 <chf> Die Lügenpresse schreibt „Eurogress“: https://www1.wdr.de/nachrichten/naherosten-demos-nrw-100.html
19:02:14 <chf> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/8600646#map=16/50.7800/6.0974
19:03:08 <chf> Räumlich nicht weit weg, aber keine Absicht zu erkennen, „die Juden“ als solche anzuschwärzen.
19:17:09 <fell> WAs ich eigentlich sagen wollt, ist daß man manchmal in einem Kontext landet, den man sich selbst zuvor nicht vorstellen konnte wie etwa in "Mondern Times" der freundliche Tramp, der den LKW-Fahrer darauf aufmersam machen möchte, daß er die ladungssichernde Fahne verloren hat und dann als Rädelsführer der gerade um die Ecke biegenden Demo festgenommen wird.
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19:48:53 <chris> meanwhile the gncTaxTable leaks 19Kb in my machine
19:49:55 <chris> #1029 jralls is good?
19:50:23 <jralls> chris, don't know, haven't looked yet.
19:50:28 <chris> if the ACCT_TYPE_DEBIT_SIDE and ACCT_TYPE_CREDIT_SIDE are used, then balance sheets will be much easier
19:51:15 <chris> would other types then be subset of these two then?
19:51:59 <jralls> OK. My accounting 101 text uses debit/credit balance instead of side. I think that expresses intent a little better, e.g. ACCT_TYPE_DEBIT_BAL.
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19:53:21 <jralls> Subset isn't really the right term. All of the Asset accounts would be able to use ACCT_TYPE_DEBIT_BAL as a parent.
19:54:56 <jralls> We can't reasonably force the hierarchy, it would break all existing books.
19:59:01 <jralls> Not to mention severely peeve a lot of users and confuse everyone in places where the super-categories aren't used.
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20:21:46 <chris> 'default categories' would be the answer
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20:57:30 <fell> jralls, from .github/workflows/README.md: "Note that updating Ubuntu 18.04 updates ICU4C from v60 to v65 and that causes conflicts with Boost, so don't." is still valid destite your recent commits?
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21:03:21 <jralls> fell, it's independent of my commits. ICU by default versions their libraries, e.g. libicuuc-60.so. Boost-regex and Boost-locale link that library, so if ICU gets upgraded then that library isn't there and libbboost-regex won't be able to load *unless* the boost packager makes a new boost package linked against the new libicu.
21:03:47 <jralls> That doesn't happen reliably.
21:05:43 <jralls> As it happens both ICU and most of boost are quite mature and there's no reason for such silliness. It's possible to configure ICU so that it doesn't put the version in the library name and it functions just fine as a normal shared library.
21:06:47 <fell> I just try to understand workflows for the docs
21:08:18 <jralls> You don't need to worry about any of that for the docs, you're not building or linking anything. You're just calling a few xml utilities plus gettext. Should be really simple.
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21:22:26 <chris> CDB-Man with an improved DR/CR-BAL property, it would make the "GST:GST on Sales=Liability" "GST:GST on Purchases=Asset" "GST" parent-account balance sheet better reflect the net GST due, no?
21:24:36 <CDB-Man> Possible yes
21:25:58 <CDB-Man> In general since (profitable) businesses sell more revenue than they procure in goods and services, the net balance is typically credit, so showing GST receivable as a credit contra is possible
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21:33:18 <jralls> chris, you could easily write xaccAccountIsDebitBal() and xaccAccountIsCreditBal() by testing the account type against the enum values.
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