2021-04-29 GnuCash IRC logs
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12:03:08 <jralls> .
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12:09:48 <jralls> @tell chris In many cases the income accounts for a stock sale are situational. As CDB-Man notes it can get pretty complicated in the US and which dividend or gain account applies depends on how long one has held the shares.
12:09:48 <gncbot> jralls: The operation succeeded.
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12:14:17 <jralls> @tell chris I don't see the value to configuring the various income accounts per stock account. The implication of that is that one would have a separate G/L and dividend income account for every stock holding and that doesn't make a lot of sense.
12:14:17 <gncbot> jralls: The operation succeeded.
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12:16:11 <warlord> .
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12:17:33 <jralls> CDB-Man, GnuCash already has lots.
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12:26:05 <jralls> CDB-Man, "Tue-19:40 CDB-Man: I don't like the idea of programmatically calculating ACB" Then why did you even bring it up, and is there any point to finishing your truth table?
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12:34:03 <CDB-Man> The truth table is for the report
12:34:08 <CDB-Man> Not the stock assistant
12:34:22 <CDB-Man> I meant I don't like the idea of calculating it for the stock assistant
12:34:35 <CDB-Man> And yeah I know lots exist
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12:52:32 <jralls> CDB-Man, I don't think chris intends to do ACB calculating in the stock assistant. IIRC it's just to aid correct data entry.
12:54:19 <jralls> @tell chris for the purposes of the stock assistant I think providing account selectors like the mortgage assistant makes the most sense.
12:54:19 <gncbot> jralls: The operation succeeded.
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13:00:23 <CDB-Man> I thought I saw on his screenshot a field with a "calculate ACB" button beside it
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13:00:45 <CDB-Man> Hence why I'm saying to shoot that idea down
13:01:03 <CDB-Man> Could be hazy memory, but the memory is pretty clear on this one
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18:11:00 <fell> warlord, there seems to have been no builds today.
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18:20:05 <chris> the basis calculator linking request comes from https://code.gnucash.org/logs/2021/04/17.html#T12:42:59
18:22:04 <chris> Ok cdb-man jralls we can ditch the idea of storing stock->associated_accounts kvp
18:23:23 <chris> AFAIR the idea came about because: (1) selecting associated_account everytime we're inputting stock activity seems annoying, and I'd suggest introduce some restrictions eg source accounts MUST be CASH/BANK/ASSET
18:23:56 <CDB-Man> Restricting inputs not a good idea
18:24:07 <chris> ok
18:24:12 <CDB-Man> Because then someone with an exception case is going to hit a roadblock
18:24:35 <chris> (2) the ACB report wants to distinguish between DIVIDEND / CAPGAINS reliably and it's nice to pull it from kvp rather than options
18:25:01 <CDB-Man> I still don't understand what is this kvp thing
18:25:29 <jralls> CDB-Man, nor should you. It's an implementation detail about internal data storage.
18:25:29 <chris> kvp = gnucash object metadata eg a Transaction object has kvp "is_closing" to internally tag whether it's a closing txn
18:26:02 <CDB-Man> As such I don't have an opinion on KVP. The only thing I have an opinion on is the assistant should not calculate ACB
18:26:03 <jralls> chris, KVP isn't necessarily meta-data. All kinds of crap has gotten stuffed into KVP.
18:26:17 <chris> ok
18:26:34 <chris> what about associated_accounts' restrictions? allow free-for-all then?
18:26:46 <chris> Dividend recorded into Equity account?
18:27:09 <CDB-Man> Dividends into equity is a possible transaction
18:27:17 <chris> <bleagh>
18:27:19 <CDB-Man> Not a recommended one
18:27:27 <CDB-Man> But a possible one
18:28:16 <CDB-Man> For the purposes of the ACB report though, enforcing dividend = income account is a reasonable assertion
18:28:35 <jralls> Income is a flavor of Equity, so of course there will usually be one or more Income::Dividends accounts.
18:28:43 <CDB-Man> Hence I still need to build that truth table
18:29:44 <jralls> CDB-Man, if not Income where would you put the balancing split?
18:29:56 <CDB-Man> For?
18:30:03 <jralls> A dividend.
18:30:53 <jralls> As in DR Assets:Investment:BrokerA:Cash Management, CR Income:Dividends.
18:31:20 <CDB-Man> Asset. The thing with dividends is there's the concept of record date vs payment date. If going proper full IFRS accrual accounting, you Dr accrued dividend receivable CR dividend income on the date of record
18:31:34 <CDB-Man> On payment date you Dr cash Cr the accrual
18:32:09 * chris does not wish to deal with those
18:32:13 <jralls> OK, but that's just the accrual version of the same thing.
18:32:53 * chris best wait for the truth table then
18:32:55 <CDB-Man> Yeah, but the point is then there's now a "dividend" transaction with a non income split, as per your ask for an example!
18:32:58 <jralls> Normal natural persons (as opposed to corporate ones) do cash accounting.
18:33:06 <CDB-Man> Not necessarily
18:33:28 <jralls> I said *normal*. ;-)
18:33:41 <chris> You mean 'mortals'
18:34:04 <CDB-Man> Tax slips often report on cash basis, and anyone reporting under a standard is required to use accrual
18:34:21 <jralls> But regardless there's also one with an Equity (income) split.
18:34:22 <CDB-Man> If you are a small business needing to produce statements for a lender, you are reporting accrual
18:35:40 <CDB-Man> For lack of better descriptors... Stock related splits into equity are a result of "poor accounting hygiene"
18:35:45 <CDB-Man> In general it should not happen
18:36:09 <CDB-Man> It only happens if you prematurely close books and need to correct / impact prior period net income
18:36:32 <jralls> Your example had a stock related split into equity: "CR dividend income on the date of record".
18:36:32 <chris> For my purposes it would seem that the truth table will dictate the report, and ultimately the UI for stock-editor. It seems we'd need to allow multiple CAPG / DIV / FEES / CASH accounts. It makes for an ugly report UI but is unavoidable.
18:37:21 <CDB-Man> I think when Chris said equity, he meant opening equity and retained earnings
18:37:32 <CDB-Man> And not the p&l accounts which roll into equity
18:37:55 <jralls> Which roll into... retained earnings.
18:38:25 <CDB-Man> No transaction should ever touch retained earnings directly
18:38:42 <CDB-Man> If anything does, you're probably doing something wrong
18:39:25 <CDB-Man> The only common exception is a corporation paying out a dividend
18:40:30 <CDB-Man> In terms of building the truth table, I just need a weekend to myself without any distractions... Which has been proving challenging so far
18:40:42 <CDB-Man> This weekend I'm helping a friend do his taxes
18:41:04 <CDB-Man> Next weekend I finally need to catch up on 9 weeks of stock options trading transactions to journal
18:41:32 <CDB-Man> The past 8 weekends I was seconded back to my old department, which really meant I was doing 2 jobs at once
18:41:38 <CDB-Man> Old + new job
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18:42:52 <CDB-Man> It would also help if the ACB report was inside a nightly :)
18:43:14 <CDB-Man> Every time I try to "force load", I always run into an issue
18:43:42 <CDB-Man> Nightly in the experimental list
18:44:06 <chris> This is possible but if the options are in heavy flux, your saved reports will fail
18:44:48 <CDB-Man> This report probably shouldn't be saved, since it's likely different per stock ticker
18:44:54 <CDB-Man> And different per broker account
18:45:31 <CDB-Man> Also, you generally don't need to be accessing this report unless you're (about to be) selling something
18:47:56 <chris> last issue:
18:48:08 <chris> how to determine the transaction fee reliably?
18:48:36 <chris> it seems for SELL it's an EXPENSE split but for BUY it may be capitalized, hence you've coded it as "Fee" action
18:48:41 <CDB-Man> The user needs to input fee into the action column
18:48:48 <CDB-Man> There is no other way
18:49:34 <chris> well an ugly wart in gnucash is that the action column may be upgraded as a Num field hence chris doesn't particularly enjoy querying it
18:50:00 <chris> but it may be the only way
18:50:11 <CDB-Man> A fee can be attached to anything. Not that it's likely, but a fee could be attached to a return of capital, which on a split basis would look similar to a capitalized fee
18:50:30 <CDB-Man> You'd have no easy way of separating
18:50:49 <chris> ok Action column it is then :-(
18:51:12 <CDB-Man> If I come up with a miracle solution when building the truth table I'll let you know!
18:51:17 <CDB-Man> But don't count on it!
18:52:02 <CDB-Man> In theory, the capitalize vs expense dichotomy shouldn't even be a report option
18:52:15 <CDB-Man> It should just be read directly from the splits
18:52:28 <CDB-Man> Either it hits a p&l account or it does not
18:52:40 <chris> agree the report doesn't ask it
18:52:42 <CDB-Man> I want to achieve this on the truth table
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19:11:51 <chris> jralls no objection to merging the Canadian-centric ACB report into Experimental? later on the universal(1) stock assistant can be built - (1) not the whole universe
19:12:59 <chris> jralls: oops lol merge near-collision but we merged safely
19:14:08 <jralls> Chris, isn't that https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/pull/978?
19:16:04 <chris> yes
19:16:45 <chris> (CDB-Man: you can experiment with book property use-split-action-field-for-num and see how it modifies the register)
19:20:54 <jralls> chris, Maybe the way around the num-action is to test for it and make a note on the report that fees might not be properly allocated in books with that option set.
19:24:39 <CDB-Man> No idea what that is, and not particularly inclined to learn what it is
19:25:23 <CDB-Man> Canadian centric yes, but should also be fairly proximate to IFRS
19:25:40 <CDB-Man> Canada de facto adopted IFRS everywhere
19:25:45 <CDB-Man> So alignment is high
19:26:12 <CDB-Man> We basically ditched former Canadian GAAP
19:26:26 <CDB-Man> Canadian GAAP only used for private enterprises now
19:26:41 <CDB-Man> And even then, they harmonized a lot of it with IFRS anyways
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19:56:40 <jralls> CDB-Man, I'll tell you anyway. ;-) It's a book option that allows using the split's action field for transaction numbers so that different splits in a txn can have different identifiers, e.g. the asset split might have a check number while the expense split has an invoice number.
19:57:32 <CDB-Man> Interesting
19:57:50 <CDB-Man> Do the ap and AR modules use this?
19:58:07 <CDB-Man> Because I do use those modules in my book
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19:58:35 <CDB-Man> Every time I file an expense report at work, I create an invoice in the AR module to track the expense report I filled
19:59:05 <jralls> Well, it will affect the A/R and A/P accounts, but whether Alex integrated it into the Biz modules and if so whether he did it correctly is another matter.
20:00:58 <CDB-Man> If the AR AP modules right now work for me, and I think (I'd have to check) I see cheque numbers somewhere in my transactions (don't remember if it's at the transaction or the split level)
20:01:21 <CDB-Man> And I also currently use all the option drop downs for fee and dividend etc in my stock accounts
20:01:35 <CDB-Man> That must mean this flag is currently... Disabled for me?
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20:03:57 <jralls> Probably. The default is disabled. You can enable it in File>Properties, but like trading accounts changing it in a book that already has transactions can produce interesting results.
20:04:07 <chris> CDB-Man you can set/reset the flag on a book at leisure... doesn't affect underlying data. It *will* affect future data entry, so don't save.
20:05:01 <chris> is there any way of inserting IFRS in the ACB report to entice users learn it?
20:05:08 <chris> is there any way of inserting IFRS in the ACB report *title* to entice users learn it?
20:05:50 <jralls> You mean as opposed to inserting it so as to scare users away? ;-)
20:06:31 <chris> if it scares unenlightened users *coughWm* away then what's the harm...
20:07:43 <CDB-Man> "IFRS weighed-average cost basis report"
20:07:52 <CDB-Man> It's a mouthful
20:08:00 <CDB-Man> But it's accurate
20:09:57 <chris> Thus shall it be named :)
20:14:32 <fell> chris: We have a directory locale-specific. There should your AU, CA, GB reports go
20:15:12 <fell> It is already confusing doc translators.
20:16:29 <fell> Perhaps add groups in the menu structure.
20:16:58 <chris> fell: this is why this report won't be translated
20:17:09 <fell> +1
20:22:42 <fell> Perhaps display them only if either -- extra is enabled or the country part of the locale is the same
20:23:43 <jralls> chris, Canadians *require* that everything be in French. English is OK as long as it's not displayed in Quebec. ;-)
20:25:03 <fell> We could create report specific text domains.
20:26:37 <fell> (loud thinking ^)
20:28:02 <fell> Have to read xgettext doc again.
20:28:28 <warlord> fell, I see logs dated 2:06 and 2:19 today.
20:28:44 <warlord> fell, (flatpak)
20:28:50 <warlord> fell, did you mean no Windows builds?
20:29:48 <fell> Oh, I have already 22-04-30, sorry.
20:30:21 <fell> 2021
20:33:10 <warlord> Yeah, today is still 21-04-29. The 04-30 builds will happen in about 5-7 hours
20:33:16 <warlord> :)
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20:56:23 * chris thinks best rename file to 'ifrs-cost-basis.scm'. if no objections in 12h, will push onto nightly.
21:04:21 <jralls> chris I don't think anyone cares about the file name, though fell seems to want it in report/reports/locale-specific/CA.
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21:06:19 <fell> Is it IFRS general or has it CA specific parts?
21:17:43 <fell> jralls, our maint is ahead of origin
21:18:09 <jralls> fell, what does that mean?
21:18:33 <fell> did ou forget to commit?
21:18:46 <jralls> Forget to commit what?
21:19:04 <CDB-Man> fell: IFRS stands for "international financial reporting standards", promulgated by an international consortium, so it's not CA specific
21:19:04 <jralls> What's "our maint"?
21:19:04 <fell> push your maint
21:19:20 <CDB-Man> Canada just decided to override local standards with the global one
21:19:40 <fell> jralls: your
21:20:11 <jralls> No, I'm using it right now to try to fix the archlinux docker CI.
21:21:54 <jralls> That way I can try different things without making a mess of history on code.
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21:23:01 <fell> CDB-Man I know IFRS. IF the report follow IFRS and has nothing CA specific,it should become translatable and stay in the normal menu part, chris.
21:24:40 <CDB-Man> I don't know 100% that it's completely devoid of Canadian specificity, but it's certainly approaching the asymptote
21:25:07 <CDB-Man> Call it "at least 90% without any Maple syrup"
21:25:35 <CDB-Man> So it should be suitable for translation
21:27:16 <CDB-Man> Question: just based on user comments on the mailing lists and on tickets, do we have a directional guess of the ratio is users that use gnucash for personal vs business finance)
21:27:18 <CDB-Man> ?
21:27:33 <CDB-Man> For example, a friend of mine uses it to keep the records of his church
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21:59:44 <chris-phone> CDB-man seems to be 50:50
22:00:07 <CDB-Man> Higher than expected
22:00:28 <chris-phone> Fell how about let CDB-man and chris work out thoroughly in experimental, and when it's certified (TM) complete we'll enable translation
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23:39:43 <fell> chris. chris: exprimental is a good compromise, but earmark (create a note) it.