2021-03-25 GnuCash IRC logs
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07:54:46 <gjanssens> .
07:59:07 <gjanssens> fell: In weblate there's a screenshot of the about dialog for the string translator-credits, and it has a flag set.
07:59:37 <gjanssens> I imagine you set those. How did you do that? I can't seem to edit any string information.
08:06:32 <gjanssens> Hmm, probably because there's a userid issue on weblate.
08:07:25 <gjanssens> I was first added with username gjanssens in December and then apparently created a new account in January
08:07:37 <gjanssens> The new account is @gjanssensbc6eadcb05e342a0
08:07:49 <gjanssens> That one doesn't have maintainer status.
08:10:57 <warlord> .
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08:55:46 <gjanssens> fell: yes, when I log in with gjanssens, I have maintainer permissions
08:56:18 <gjanssens> New question: why is translator-credits marked as read-only ?
09:17:03 <gjanssens> And there ae apparently two glossaries, one coming from our repo and one on weblate. Do we need both ?
09:22:57 <fell> Good questions. Let's see…
09:24:10 <fell> I would suggest to have one ID for weblate and github, allowing better communication.
09:25:00 <fell> The second glossary suddenly appeared.
09:27:59 <fell> I suspect, a user tried to convert its language version of our glossary into the weblate glossary.
09:29:11 <fell> Perhaps we should ask the weblate team, if we cannot find an explaination in their docs.
09:34:53 <fell> About translator-credit: I made a screenshot and upladed it, because it is hard to decribe in a comment.
09:36:38 <gjanssens> Ok. I have opened a ticket with weblate to merge my two accounts. I prefer to have only one.
09:37:03 <gjanssens> I did use both already so the usage history should ideally be merged.
09:37:18 <gjanssens> As for glossary, can we delete the weblate one ?
09:37:45 <fell> giuseppef: … but weblate says "string is too long" …
09:39:05 <gjanssens> I saw that. I think we need another flag to allow arbitrary string size. Is there a reasonable size you would suggest ?
09:40:48 <fell> No, see it in de
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09:52:32 <gjanssens> fell: I have set a size limit of 32768. That is a very wide margin, even for de. Should any translator hit that limit, we should review.
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09:57:33 <fell> Ah, the read-only flag is on english as source.
09:58:12 <fell> gjanssens, can you now append "-2021" in nl?
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09:58:52 <fell> Ah, you did already.
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10:14:47 <chris> is gjanssens still using KDevelop? what about fell?
10:15:19 <fell> gjanssens, shoudn't messages containing {1} be marked as Csomething?
10:15:43 * fell uses eclipse, chris.
10:16:15 * warlord2 uses emacs and command-line :)
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10:16:22 * warlord too
10:16:36 <chris> emacs+magit is da bomb
10:17:05 <chris> isn't eclipse mostly for java?
10:17:08 <fell> emacs and lisp are relatives.
10:18:42 <fell> Once I tried to return to emacs, which I used in my youth,but their docs do not explain where to find [Meta] on my keybord.
10:20:54 <fell> chris, that was the orgin,but since it git CDT (C developement Tools) it became usable.
10:21:32 <fell> In between it got modules for almost everything.
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10:27:12 <jralls_laptop> gjanssens, Are you referring to the fact that we have a Glossary project for translation--it's part of our help--and Weblate has a glossary feature that's intended to provide definitions of domain terms to translators?
10:37:33 * fell wonders, if we should force c-sharp-format on messages with {1}?
10:43:26 <jralls_laptop> (1)? And why C#?
10:48:10 <fell> That was the only occorence, which I found in https://www.gnu.org/software/gettext/manual/gettext.html.
10:49:03 <fell> But perhaps an expert should file an enhancement request againsz gettext.
10:52:14 <fell> or our xgettext call has not the proper --flag=word:arg:flag
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11:09:11 <jralls_laptop> fell, I still don't understand. The only instance of {1} in the gettext manual is about java string formatting where {1} means insert the second parameter following the format string. I still don't understand what that has to do with us.
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11:11:54 <gjanssens> fell: yes I was able to add -2021 in nl as you found
11:12:03 <gjanssens> chris: yes, I'm still on kdevelop
11:13:35 <gjanssens> jralls_laptop: boost::locale::format uses {1} as placeholders
11:14:06 <gjanssens> I have started using these in most of my c++ conversions in gnucash
11:14:46 <jralls_laptop> gjanssens, thanks.
11:14:47 <gjanssens> And yes, I'm referring to those two different glossaries
11:15:24 <gjanssens> Is there no way to skip the weblate glossary and have it use our own ?
11:15:49 <gjanssens> I know I'm a bit late to the game. Perhaps this was discussed before.
11:17:26 <jralls_laptop> I think the only discussion was back in January, fell and I briefly discussed wether we should turn on the weblate one. It was pestering us to do so.
11:18:27 <gjanssens> Jumping back to fell's {1} remarks, I think he would like to leverage weblate validation tests like we have on c-format tagged strings. Weblate can warn you if the number of placeholders doesn't match.
11:18:49 <gjanssens> I don't know if we can set up something similar for the boost::locale::format specifiers.
11:20:00 <jralls_laptop> I haven't seen anything in the weblate settings to point their glossary feature at a translation project. I suspect projects like our glossary aren't common.
11:20:45 <gjanssens> Probably not, and not worth spending much energy on either. I'd just like to avoid translators doing double work for nothing.
11:21:35 <jralls_laptop> On boost::locale::format--and C++20's std::format, which is similar--weblate needs to support it. We can't change either of them to work like C#.
11:23:25 <jralls_laptop> I think we could turn the weblate feature off and tell translators to look up terms they don't understand in the glossary project, but IIUC that would add some friction because the weblate one enables suggestions similar to the way an IDE offers code completion.
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11:26:26 <gjanssens> Currently both glossaries are used as far as I can tell.
11:28:12 <gjanssens> When I go to a translatable string in the Dutch Program translation it will suggest dutch translatations for certain keywords, but the Weblate glossary for gnucash has no entries for Dutch.
11:28:26 <gjanssens> So these suggestions have to come from our own glossary.
11:29:03 <gjanssens> I'll note the two glossaries has a tag "Glossary", and ours is named "Glossary" while the one from weblate is named "Gnucash"
11:29:49 <gjanssens> Additionally our glossary is marked as "linked" to "Program". It take it that makes weblate use it as glossary.
11:30:27 <jralls_laptop> Then maybe it makes sense to turn off the weblate one. Have you noticed if any of them have any entries?
11:30:52 <gjanssens> Yes, some translators seem to have been using them.
11:32:17 <jralls_laptop> It might be because they're experienced with weblate on other projects and it's what they're used to doing. You could ask.
11:32:49 <gjanssens> Bulgarian (1), Croatian (201), Finnish (197), German (204), Hebrew (241), Italian (1), Japanese (4), Portuguese (3)
11:34:09 <jralls_laptop> milotype, the croatian translator, has been around forever and comes here occasionally. He'd be a good one to ask.
11:35:05 <jralls_laptop> Alternatively fell might know why the German translators are using it.
11:35:36 <gjanssens> Ok, will now go in meeting... later
11:36:46 <jralls_laptop> Bye.
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11:48:15 <gjanssens> Afterthought: what would happen if a translator tries to add a new term to our own glossary via weblate ? Would we see this ? Would we want that ?
11:49:26 <gjanssens> Just curious to how translators view the Glossary - as their personal list of terms or a project wide one.
12:01:06 <jralls_laptop> You'd have to ask the translators about the second part. For the first question, they'd first have to submit a PR directly on Github to add the English string. Once that's merged it will appear in weblate for them to translate.
12:04:26 <jralls_laptop> We need to discuss using boost::locale::format. https://fmt.dev/latest/index.html becomes std::format in C++20 and has the immense advantage of not needing a stdio stream to enable it.
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12:06:35 <jralls_laptop> There's also a problem with using C++ std::locale on Windows: gcc implements only the C locale so you'll get a translated string with US formatted dates and numbers.
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12:51:41 <fell> The idea was after completing our glossary, load it into the weblate glossary to get suggestions while translating the rest.
12:54:26 <fell> But our glossary was designed very early and missed the progress on glossaries in translation tools.
12:56:18 <fell> One point on my todo list: replace the usage of colons and brackets by msgcontext. That should make it more usefull.
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13:00:30 <fell> The {1} issue is before weblate. xgettext doesn't set a c-flag or similar in the template like for % or ~ (scheme).
13:01:58 <fell> So either we are missing a xgettext parameter to set it or the gettext package needs an update to recognize it.
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13:21:53 <jralls> fell, xgettext has a --boost parameter for recognizing boost::format strings. They're a little different from boost::locale::format and std::format but still use {} to indicate substitution points.
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13:30:16 <jralls> But the msgfmt --check-format docs imply that it only works for printf-style % markers. Are you sure that it works for scheme ~ markers too?
13:32:45 <jralls> Oh, never mind about --boost, the xgettext docs say it's about an obsolete version that used %|...| to delimit formats.
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13:38:10 <gjanssens> jralls: boost has boost::format and boost::locale::format, where the latter is more flexible and uses the {} notation
13:38:51 <gjanssens> The scheme markers is a weblate specific check as I understand it.
13:39:57 <gjanssens> I'm mistaken. xgettext understands the guile markers and will add a scheme-format flag
13:40:56 <jralls> gjanssens, xgettext understands scheme, but does msgfmt --check-format?
13:41:14 <jralls> Or is that weblate?
13:41:28 <gjanssens> As for boost::locale::format vs std::format I started with boost::locale way before there was talk about std::fmt
13:41:53 <gjanssens> I'd love to switch to std::format, but we can't use C++20 just yet, right ?
13:42:25 <gjanssens> The windows issue is more complicated. I'd have to run some experiments with numbers and dates.
13:43:22 <jralls> The committee adopted an existing implmenetation called fmt that I pointed to above. We can use that until we're ready to adopt C++ 20.
13:45:02 <jralls> You might find https://www.zverovich.net/slides/2017-cppcon.pdf interesting.
13:47:31 <gjanssens> msgfmt --check-format does know about guile markers but is not very smart about them
13:48:39 <gjanssens> I ran a test on a msgid with "something ~a something ~a" and the msgstr "iets %s iets %s"
13:48:42 <gjanssens> No error
13:49:05 <gjanssens> Changing the msgstr to "iets bla iets %s" did give an error
13:49:25 <gjanssens> So it seems it can count placeholders, but doesn't know how the discern over different languages
13:50:38 <gjanssens> Weblate's check is more clever, it will detect non-matching placeholders
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13:52:27 <jralls> OK. Based on the gettext bug tracker it's more likely that weblate can be gotten to recognize {fmt}/std::format placeholders than gettext. There are a lot of old open "please support..." bugs on gettext.
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13:54:04 <gjanssens> Switching back to the glossary train of thought: I understand your reasoning about the PR to add a glossary term, but I suspect weblate will hide that part of the procedure for translators that try to add one via weblate.
13:54:31 <gjanssens> As a test I have just added the term "Test Term" to our glossary, including a Dutch translation.
13:54:46 <jralls> Entirely from weblate?
13:54:54 <gjanssens> I suspect it will appear as part of the PR against our code base.
13:55:02 <gjanssens> Yes, entirely in weblate
13:55:19 <jralls> Cool. We'll find out soon enough.
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13:56:44 <gjanssens> But that brings my back to the question of the intent of the glossary: do translators typically see this as a common resource, or mostly for their own personal use.
13:57:08 <gjanssens> If the latter they may start adding things we don't consider useful for all languages.
13:57:30 <jralls> And that takes me back to "ask the translators" starting with milotype.
13:57:57 <jralls> It's not something monoglot me is going to know!
13:58:13 <gjanssens> I know :) Just laying out my full idea so you can grab one if a translator passes by while I'm away
13:58:50 <jralls> fell is a translator...
13:59:00 <gjanssens> In that case it may be interesting to keep two glossaries: one curated by us with common terms and a "language personal" one for translator's own translation aides
13:59:11 * gjanssens is now too ;)
13:59:19 <gjanssens> Among other things
13:59:52 <gjanssens> Wow my keyboard's space keys is seriously acting up...
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14:15:48 <fell> --boost finds only msgid "{1} [options] [datafile]" besides double marking some % as c-format, boost-format, but missing Geerts {1} messages.
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14:17:03 <jralls> Yeah. It doesn't understand the newish {fmt} style.
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14:32:11 <gjanssens> jralls: note the slides don't mention boost::locale::format, but boost::format. I can't speak of all the metrics but boost::locale::format looks more like the fmt library than boost::format does.
14:32:44 <gjanssens> There's no iostream requirement as there is in boost::format.
14:34:01 <gjanssens> What's not clear to me is how the fmt library would work with translatable strings. In boost::locale that's part of the same library.
14:37:27 <jralls> It's a string. std::format(_("Lorem ipsum {1}"), get_fecit());
14:38:24 <gjanssens> So you'd fall back to gettext's C interface.
14:39:01 <gjanssens> Instead of boost::locale::translate or boost::locale::gettext
14:40:06 <gjanssens> Perhaps that's sufficient. I don't know if bl::translate really did add something gettext couldn't. It just came with the package.
14:40:29 <jralls> IIUC translate is just a wrapper to select gettext or ICU and boost::locale::gettext just forwards to libintl. Checking the source now...
14:44:32 <gjanssens> boost::locale::format uses the python notation for arguments (separated with % signs), std::format uses commas inside the function call
14:45:02 <gjanssens> The python ones look fancy but std::format's notation is less confusing really.
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14:47:04 <jralls> I hope there's template magic behind that operator%() so that it gets handled at compile time.
14:47:30 <gjanssens> Nice! fmt is even available on Mingw64 :)
14:47:55 <fell> Can we do something like --flag=g_strdup_printf:1:c-format to get it recognized?
14:47:56 <gjanssens> So switching to it would probably not be too hard, if it's worth the trouble.
14:48:29 <gjanssens> When do you expect gnucash can go for C++20 ? For 5.0 already ?
14:49:07 <jralls> I see that bl::translate takes const std::string& so passing a const char* has to construct a string. It then constructs a basic_message<chartype> from that. Slow.
14:49:07 <fell> Which Ubuntu LTS will 5.0 support?
14:50:36 <fell> and are the win and macos layers ready?
14:54:43 <jralls> Probably 22.04. Only a year before releasing 5.0, maybe a little too close. MinGW64 keeps up pretty well with gcc versions, no problem there. Xcode is hard to track, it would be a feature-by-feature thing.
14:55:27 <gjanssens> It's not clear to me whether gcc's standard library already has implemented std::format already. There's no version number in the feature list on this page: https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/libstdc++/manual/status.html#status.iso.2020
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14:58:13 <gjanssens> And I don't immediately find the status for clang's stdlib either.
14:58:18 <jralls> Right, looks like it's still in progress along with the bits of std::chrono I'd need to migrate GncDateTime.
14:58:25 <gjanssens> Anyway, time for supper
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15:09:36 <jralls> https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/compiler_support Hmmph, even MSVC, whose team proclaimed being C++20 feature complete when C++20 was ratified last December is missing P0645 support and has only partial P0355.
15:12:47 <jralls> And neither gcc nor clang have constexpr string & vector.
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16:26:58 <fell> gjanssens, https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/pull/948/commits/589fc1663ce8d6eb1d4b81008fc108598cb31990
16:27:50 <fell> I think, I will revert it. OK?
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17:04:26 <gjanssens> fell: yes, you can revert, though to avoid merge conflicts with weblate you may want to do that in a followup commit.
17:10:50 <fell> already done. Right, see the Note at the end of https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Weblate#Workflow
17:16:31 <jralls> gjanssens, do you want to get your pricequotes merged for 4.5?
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17:18:27 <gjanssens> jralls: I was just logging out as I saw your message pass by...
17:18:53 <gjanssens> No the finance::quote rewrite is not ready for 4.5. I'm aiming for 4.6
17:19:05 <jralls> OK.
17:19:09 <jralls> Goodnight!
17:19:29 <gjanssens> Goodnight!
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