2021-03-11 GnuCash IRC logs
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01:57:57 <Mechtilde> fell, Martin aht das Problem schon bestätigt. Es gibt eine neue Version von aqbanking
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01:59:36 <fell> Danke, Mechtilde! Dann kannst du ja mal https://code.gnucash.org/builds/flatpak/maint/gnucash-maint-C4.4-251-g6c22de402-D4.4-36-g4ee1535.flatpakref testen. ;-)
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02:03:38 <fell> After jralls merges https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash-on-windows/pull/49 we will also have it in Windows.
02:03:56 <fell> too
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02:14:53 <TheDcoder> Hi, where can I find the "Income Report" report? I have been trying it find it since the last few days but I am unable to locate it
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02:40:24 <gjanssens> .
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02:46:27 <fell> TheDcoder: menu Reports->Income & Expense?
02:47:19 <TheDcoder> fell: I have looked at all reports under that sub-menu, none matches the income report that I exported a couple of days ago :(
02:47:46 <TheDcoder> it lists all transactions from selected accounts which go to certain accounts
02:48:47 <fell> If you customized and saved it, Reports->Saved Report configuration.
02:49:02 <TheDcoder> unfortunately I did not save it
02:49:54 <fell> Then, I fear, you will have to redo it, right chris?
02:50:20 <TheDcoder> that's not a problem, but I can't find the initial report that I customized :(
02:50:50 <TheDcoder> none of the reports match what I had customized, and I did not do any heavy customizations, just changed the selected accounts
02:53:38 <TheDcoder> I also customized the title of the report, so I don't know the name of the original report... only if I could recall it :(
02:53:47 <fell> Usually you start with Income Statement,
02:53:51 <TheDcoder> This report has the following columns: Date, Num, Description, Memo/Notes, Transfer from/to, Debit, Credit
02:54:16 <fell> Oh, that is a transaction report.
02:54:32 <TheDcoder> oh
02:54:36 <TheDcoder> where can I find it?
02:55:29 <fell> Finally, if you start gnucash with the --extra flag there are additional experimental reports.
02:55:58 <TheDcoder> I never used it so this report is not part of those additional experimental reports
02:56:13 <fell> The last in the report menu?
02:56:48 <TheDcoder> O_O
02:56:56 <TheDcoder> YOU SAVED MY LIFE!!!!
02:57:10 <TheDcoder> OMG THANK YOU SO MUCH XD uwu
02:57:39 <fell> welcome! Sometimes we are the bay watch ;-)
02:57:48 <TheDcoder> ha ha ha ha
03:06:34 <fell> gjanssens, on Ubuntu-20.04 CI Tests "The EULA was not accepted" reappeared. https://github.com/fellen/gnucash/runs/2084228130?check_suite_focus=true
03:08:20 <fell> or https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/actions/runs/642012952
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06:13:23 <gjanssens> fell: I have actually no idea what that means nor did I know it has already happened before.
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08:22:52 <warlord> .
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08:34:28 <chf> Ja, fell, insofern finde ich bemerkenswert, daß ausgerechner das ansonsten „politisch verkommene“ Vereinigte Königreich ein explizites Anti-Sklaverei-Gesetz geschaffen hat – alle anderen halten das nicht für nötig.
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12:20:30 <fell> chf: Auch der in Aachen so hoch verehrte Alkuin, der Europa mit der karolingischen Minuskel beglückte, war Brite.
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12:53:58 <jralls_laptop> fell, gjanssens, the EULA problem is with updating MSODBCSQL, which I guess would be the Microsoft SQL Server ODBC client. I've filed https://github.com/actions/virtual-environments/issues/2904.
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12:57:59 <fell> Thanks, jralls!
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15:52:34 <dtux> is it weird to have a transaction from an income account directly to an owner equity withdrawal?
15:52:48 <dtux> e.g. my household books don't really track cash. if someone gives the house cash, i usually just pocket it and deduct from my equity.
15:54:11 <jralls> dtux, Yes, that's weird, but if it works for you it's OK.
15:55:54 <dtux> jralls: it basically wfm :) but i'm curious to learn... why is it weird? typically this would be done by going thru a cash asset account first I assume?
15:58:36 <jralls> Yes. And the cash treated as an expense rather than an owner draw. Owner draw is the private company/partnership equivalent of a stock company dividend, whereby the retained profits are distributed to the owners/partners/shareholders.
16:03:08 <dtux> an expense? (do you mean income / an income statement transaction?)... the way i was looking at it, it basically is a dividend haha (i.e. money i'm withdrawing, but not because the house owes it to me for some reason -- it's out of band tho, as in i get the dividend immediately instead of after closing... maybe that's why you call it an expense?)
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16:11:17 <jralls> So what is "the house" and why are its books separate from your own?
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16:14:51 <jralls> Incoem and expense are special kinds of equity that track sources of income and reasons you spent. I use "cash" as an expense account because I don't want to make the effort to keep track of the small amounts here-and-there that I pay for with cash.
16:15:28 <jralls> Other people have a cash asset account and do make that effort.
16:22:46 <dtux> "the house" is my household (the books basically treat it as a business where the Retained Profits are always negative :p). so my roommates and i contribute to the house checking monthly, then the house pays rent/utils/etc from its checking. it's separate because we close those books annually, dividing up the retained losses based on personal income (i.e. not equally). also, having separa
16:22:48 <dtux> te books means i dont have to share my personal books.
16:26:04 <jralls> And where does the cash paid to the house come from?
16:26:05 <dtux> my alternative would be to track the cash as an asset, but i'd rather not hold cash for the house (hence me crediting the cash income but pocketing it immediately by debiting owner withdrawals)
16:27:24 <dtux> the cash might come as a gift... for example, the house hosted thanksgiving, and my dad gave the house some cash to help out with that
16:28:20 <jralls> And thanksgiving was paid for out of the house checking account?
16:28:51 <jralls> What if one of your roommates parents also contributed some cash towards thanksgiving?
16:31:55 <dtux> yup, and that would be treated the same way (assuming it was truly a gift to the house, not a personal gift to that roommate, which wouldn't be tracked)
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16:32:47 <jralls> Meaning that you'd trouser the contribution and still charge the house checking account for the thanksgiving expenses?
16:35:18 <dtux> yup (but the house logged income, so the value shouldn't be going to me... i'm just lowering my equity to make my life easier since i do the books -- if i deposited it into the house checking as a regular contribution, i'd get my equity back)
16:37:13 <jralls> And when do you propose that the roommates will recover their equity?
16:41:17 <jralls> Or maybe I should say "what equity"? Equity is Assets - Liabilities.
16:45:46 <dtux> they get a larger claim on my previous regular contributions (say there's 3 of us and we give $1000/mo, and we get a $100 gift from some parent... assets = 3000, income = 100, expenses = thanksgiving, and my equity is only $900 because i withdrew the $100 cash gift)
16:46:11 <jralls> Yeah, I get that part.
16:51:13 <dtux> since we have running tallies of equity, they can withdraw whenever they want (but obviously if everyone withdrew everything, we'd be in trouble)... they would "realize" that equity when we divvy up our expenses at the end of the year
16:51:34 <dtux> (not sure i'm understanding the question if that doesn't answer it)
16:55:31 <jralls> OK, let's assume that there's some cushion built into that 3000/month so that at the end of the year there's 100 left over, and there were 500 in gifts that you took as owner draws. So your roomates each have 12000 equity and you have 11500. How do you settle that?
17:03:02 <dtux> depends on how much expenses were... say that $500 covered all of thanksgiving exactly, which was the only expense (and pretend we're splitting equally): each of us gets -$500/3 equity for closing: (12000 - 166.66) + (12000 - 166.66) + (11500 - 166.66) = 36000 (total received) - 500 withdrawal - 500 thanksgiving = $35000 (assets in checking)
17:12:46 <jralls> There's not $35000 in assets, you also had to pay rent/utilities/etc. There's $100 in assets. Equity is each partner's share of that $100. Had you not "drawn" the $500 the assets would be $600 and each partner's share would be $200. But you did and there's only $100 between you.
17:12:54 <jralls> Do you see the problem yet?
17:15:00 <dtux> (no we're pretending thanksgiving was the only expense, right? for simplicity) but yes, i see it vaguely... there is no income in my calculation.
17:15:43 <dtux> so... am i basically passing the gift thru the books directly/wholly to myself?
17:16:11 <jralls> Yeah.
17:16:27 <jralls> That's the problem. And there are some not very nice names for it.
17:16:30 <dtux> "each partner's share would be $200." well no, not my share (because i have less equity than the others)
17:17:03 <jralls> Yeah. Your share is you owe your partners $300.
17:17:19 <jralls> And have no claim on the $100.
17:20:27 <dtux> ok, let me try my example again: each of us gets $0 (because $500 gift income - $500 thankgiving expenses = $0 retained earnings).... $12000 + $12000 + $11500 = $36000 - $500 withdrawal = $35500 assets in checking
17:22:24 <jralls> Why do each of you get nothing? Aren't you divvying up the remaining assets?
17:24:22 <dtux> that's closing... if we were to divvy up the $35500 remaining, they would each get $12k and i would only get $11.5k (because i already got $500 in cash)
17:24:56 <jralls> Right.
17:26:05 <dtux> so, we are good after all! (i think? haha)
17:27:02 <jralls> Well, in that particular fantasy you are. But that was pretending that you don't have to pay rent. What does it really look like at the end of the year?
17:27:29 <jralls> And do you really pay out the surplus or do you roll it over?
17:31:51 <dtux> there's never surplus... it's always a retained loss. if we extend the example to say $30k in rent for the year, then we'd each get -$10k (which is $500 gift income - $500 thanksgiving expense - $30k rent expense, all divided by 3 roommates) so equity would be $2k + $2k + $1.5k = $36k -$500 withdrawal - $30k retained = $5.5k assets in checking
17:32:58 <jralls> Assuming no loans, Equity = Assets. If there's nothing left in the bank account there's no Equity.
17:33:15 <dtux> but ya, we would just leave that and keep going (everyone could withdraw everything if they wanted, but then the house couldn't cover expenses obviously)
17:35:39 <jralls> But in your latest example you took in 36500, spent 30500, and you withdrew another 500, leaving 5500 which you could divvy up as you say.
17:36:41 <dtux> (well, technically already divvied by then, but) yup!
17:37:36 <jralls> No, that's the problem: It's not already divvied by then. If there are more expenses so that there's less left it's not divvied.
17:40:01 <jralls> You had a flash of realization a few minutes ago but you don't like it so you're trying to ignore it.
17:40:02 <dtux> if there are more expenses, they would have gotten lumped into that equation already tho... by "already divvied", i mean that the there's $5.5k in assets = $2k + $2k + $1.5k equity
17:40:33 <jralls> That's right. But if there's only $100 in assets what's the equity?
17:41:08 <jralls> Rather that's half-right, the half about there being $5500 in assets.
17:41:53 <dtux> what should the equity breakdown for the $5.5k be if i was doing this a more traditional way?
17:43:04 <dtux> (also, not *trying* to ignore it... i will definitely correct this if that's the case. i think my first example was just wrong.)
17:43:21 <jralls> This isn't about tradition, it's about the other meaning of equity: Fairness and legality. If you deposited the $500 in the checking account then there would be $6000 in assets and each of you would have a 1/3 claim on it.
17:44:53 <dtux> the roommates would get $2k either way
17:45:31 <dtux> if i deposited the $500, wouldn't that just change my claim from $1.5k to $2k?
17:45:39 <jralls> Yes.
17:45:42 <jralls> To both.
17:46:21 <jralls> The problem becomes clear when there's less than $500 left, because then there isn't enough left to make the roommates whole.
17:47:14 <dtux> yes, that could happen if someone withdrew more equity than they had. which would not be ok
17:48:58 <dtux> (i think you're seeing $500 income missing, but i'm seeing $500 under-contributed on my part -- i wouldn't be able to do this little shortcut if i didn't have enough equity to cover the $500 withdrawal)
17:49:37 <dtux> the whole "business that always loses money" thing definitely requires consistent contributions to maintain a good buffer at all times
17:50:32 <jralls> A business that always loses money is called a fraud.
17:51:27 <jralls> And those consistent contributions are made larger by your embezzlement.
17:52:45 <dtux> something, something uber XD lol we're not actually a business tho... we're just a household splitting bills. how is this embezzlement? i feel like we're not on the same page, or i'm missing something big...
17:54:30 <jralls> Your not contributing your share. Your dad didn't give you the $500 to help on your car payment, he gave it to you to have a (very) nice thanksgiving dinner with your room-mates. You had the nice dinner, but you charged them 167 each for it!
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17:55:16 <jralls> What you're missing would seem to be a conscience
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18:00:40 <dtux> i totally see how this would be a problem if we were ever cutting it close, but that's definitely not the case. in reality our contributions WAY outweigh our losses. for example, i might contribute $4k in a month where our bills are only $3k... i dont see how taking $500 back out would be a problem in that case.
18:01:46 <dtux> the house is logging the $500 income regardless of whether the cash stays in assets or "buys back" equity from me
18:08:06 <jralls> Losses isn't the right term, expenses is. loss is negative profit, and in the grossest terms profit = income - expense. That's not really germane here.
18:09:14 <jralls> Your claim that *you* might put in $4000 in a month when the expenses would only be $3000 is interesting. Why would you do that, and what would the room mates have contributed in that month?
18:14:22 <dtux> well, by losses, i meant retained earnings (which we usually expect to be negative), but then i mentioned an example of monthly expenses (sry, i see why that could confuse things)
18:14:59 <dtux> Anyways... I would do that because I acknowledge we need a big buffer at all times. Roommates do that too. (also, there’s really only only 1 roommate, my gf, and we’re saving together. I just get official with the accounting for fun :p)
18:29:00 <jralls> That last bit should be reason enough to be forthright and honest about the money. It would probably help to think about it as family money rather than business money. It would certainly help when trying to explain it to strangers!
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18:31:50 <dtux> well, i do think of it as family money! i find this all interesting and want to do this right (i.e. not embezzling from my gf for starters! haha), and i have no professional experience. thanks you for your patience... i guess i assumed the "household" references were enough to convey the informality, but i know what they say about assuming X(
18:32:29 <jralls> You didn't say household, you said house.
18:32:42 <jralls> BIG difference!
18:33:40 <dtux> oh snap! hadnt thought of that (we always shorten it! "let's split that, just bill the house")
18:34:09 <jralls> Lol.
18:34:29 <dtux> d of house tux, first of his name XD
18:36:44 <dtux> ok, rewinding this back... so in a more proper context, such a transaction from income directly to equity withdrawal seems very NOT ok. the essence of the issue seems to be *when* the owners withdraw. does that imply that owners are generally restricted about when they can withdraw (e.g. only after closing, or only if all owners withdraw)?
18:37:02 <jralls> The whole capital and equity thing doesn't work very well with households. I suppose that there's also an income disparity so that you don't divide expenses 50/50, but you're trying to use equity to be able to amicably divide the savings account if things don't work out in th elong term.
18:38:22 <jralls> So consider a business. It needs some stuff to do business, and it needs a couple of months worth of expenses to keep things going between paying the bills and getting paid for the sales.
18:40:06 <jralls> So suppose that instead of a GF you were starting a business with a partner. To keep things simple we'll stipulate that you're each going to put in 50% of the startup capital and that it's $100K, or $50K each (and K is decimal, not binary ;-) ).
18:42:09 <jralls> That 100K is "paid in capital". You turn a 10K loss the first year, but the second year things go really well and you make a $100K profit. After closing the books Equity is now $100K paid in capital and $90K retained earnings.
18:44:25 <jralls> Note that you have to pay yourselves salaries that are booked as Expenses along with rent and utilities on your office. We'll assume a service business so we don't have to get into inventory and cost accounting and all that.
18:47:06 <dtux> "pay yourselves salaries that are booked as Expenses" aaah, i dont think i thought of that as an expense! more of a "jk, i need some of that paid in capital back" haha... makes sense tho since i would definitely call it an expense if someone else was doing the labor. interesting
18:47:38 <jralls> This is about how you do business, not family, accounting!
18:48:24 <dtux> totally (and i appreciate this example, clearly helping me)
18:50:13 <jralls> So at the end of the second year you have more capital in the bank than you think you can use so you decide to do a $50K owner's draw to reduce it. Each partner gets $25K so that the ownership ratio stays constant and the book keeping easy.
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18:53:34 <dtux> ok, so owner draw (which considers equity ratio) is separate from salary (which does not? would all owners typically take the same salary?)
18:55:09 <jralls> That depends on the business. The partners might decide to pay themselves an hourly wage instead of a salary, particularly if there's a disparity on the amount of time they can work.
18:56:10 <jralls> It's not really important to this discussion: The important point I'm trying to make is that an owner's draw is a reduction in the firm's capital.
18:57:16 <jralls> It's incidentally common for partnerships to lend money to the principles. That's of course done with a proper loan agreement with interest and a repayment schedule.
18:58:33 <jralls> But families don't really work that way. Capital for most of them is a house that they share ownership with a bank and maybe a savings account and retirement accounts.
19:00:57 <dtux> i see... is the point basically that capital withdraw is more hmmm "serious" for a business?
19:01:00 <dtux> (need to step away, back in ~30min)
19:03:03 <jralls> You want your accounts to model what you're trying to account for. You have two basic purposes: Get the bills paid and save some money. Being realistic (Good!) you want to keep track of how much each of you has put into the savings account so that if you break up neither of you feels compelled to get lawyers involved.
19:04:32 <jralls> There may be other fixed assets that you buy together, so you probably want to keep track of that too.
19:11:22 <jralls> Remember that I said income and expense are special kinds of equity? That means you can call your monthly contributions income. Make two income accounts, BF (boyfriend) and GF contributions, and a third one for gifts. In addition to the rest of your expense accounts add BF cash and GF cash.
19:14:11 <jralls> If you like having an equity account showing your current share of the community assets you can have Equity:BF, Equity:GF, and Equity:Common. Close the BF income and expense accounts to Equity:BF, the GF ones to Equity:GF, and everything else to Equity:Common.
19:15:53 <jralls> IIUC your arrangement you can use the ratio of Equity:BF to Equity:GF to determine the shares of Equity:Common.
19:17:31 <jralls> Depending on where you live you might need to get that arrangement written down and notarized; it's been case law in the US that the ratio is 50/50 for cohabiting couples unless there's a documented agreement otherwise.
19:19:52 <jralls> sorry, lost the date: It's been case law in the US since the 1970s, the first case being https://law.justia.com/cases/california/supreme-court/3d/18/660.html.
19:24:08 <jralls> That lets you pretty much continue what you're doing without muddying things up with incorrectly applied business terms. In the interest of family harmony I suggest that you offer your GF the opportunity to participate in the direct cash disbursements.
19:31:22 <jralls> This sets you up well for when you're ready and "contributions" turn into "paychecks". You can just combine the existing equity accounts. I recommend separate (joint, so that either of you can get at all the money in an emergency) demand accounts to avoid the 60's sitcom trope of refused debit card payments from communication failures.
19:38:43 * dtux returns
19:40:56 <dtux> "law in the US that the ratio is 50/50 for cohabiting couples" woah! TIL
19:42:32 <dtux> "I suggest that you offer your GF the opportunity to participate in the direct cash disbursements." definitely... all this makes me want to very clearly reiterate this, but we've done a kinda similar thing for her before (personal expense on joint account)
19:43:31 <dtux> this is all great, thank you!
19:43:52 <jralls> Good luck to both of you!
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20:27:39 <jralls> Hey mikee I want to add you to a bug on the bi-importer (https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=798132) but you have three email addresses registered in BZ. Do they all work?
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21:39:15 <ekleog> Hellooo people! I'm trying to use the OFX importer for the first time (heard it was better than the QIF importer, which I've never tried either), and I'm hitting an issue with credit card transactions: the matcher appears to consider them as being dated at the date they were withdrawn from the account, while I already record them at the date I actually did the transaction; and thus
21:39:18 <ekleog> the matcher completely fails to match any transaction, and even just to suggest the match in the match list, thus preventing me from importing without duplicating all the transactions. So:
21:39:44 <ekleog> 1. Is there a way to tell GnuCash “please display _all_ non-reconciled transactions as potential matches”? (I've already tried setting the match threshold to 0, without success)
21:40:11 <ekleog> 2. Is there a way to tell GnuCash “yes my bank's OFX statements are weird and the actual transaction date is in the memo field so please take it from there”?
21:42:12 <ekleog> (I guess the alternative would be to pre-process the OFX file, but… TBH, at that level, just using the reconcile feature and disregarding import altogether might just be more efficient, especially as its UI looks more polished to my first-time-user view)
21:52:03 <jralls> I'm unfortunately not very familiar with the algo for matching to existing transactions, but I can say that the matcher works mostly on the description field. Do your descriptions closely match what the credit card company exports?
22:05:21 <ekleog> not at all, the credit card (issued by the bank directly here in france) only has the name of the shop, which often can be unpredictable
22:06:59 <ekleog> it works-ish sometimes despite the date&description mismatch, because the amount usually matches to the cent exactly one of the transactions, but way too often (like half of the transactions) it ends up not allowing me to even manually select a transaction from a list of transactions whose amount is similar, which makes it basically useless with my bank's ofx exports :/
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22:27:21 <ekleog> Looks to me like the matching issue comes from if (datediff_day > MATCH_DATE_NOT_THRESHOLD) prob = prob - 5; in split_find_match: even with a perfect amount match it'll be -2, and then number heuristics can't happen in home-accounting setups, and desc/memo matching gets at most +1 unless both split-level and transaction-level descriptions are set to something that matches
22:29:47 <ekleog> jralls: As you got ops I guess you're probably a dev or close-ish to a dev. I'm probably going to patch my local GnuCash unless someone has an idea for how to work around this, but: how willing do you think GnuCash would be to make MATCH_DATE_NOT_THRESHOLD be 40 days instead of 14? This way the 30 days rollover of credit card companies would naturally avoid this trap. The only
22:29:50 <ekleog> alternative I could see, beyond “accept importing transactions doesn't work with (some) credit card companies' statements” would be to parse the memo field to identify dates from credit card companies in there, which would sound… bad to me
22:30:40 <ekleog> (The code I'm looking at is <gnucash>/gnucash/import-export/import-backend.c, function split_find_match, lines 699 to 709 in particular)
22:31:44 <ekleog> (going to afk for tonight, will look at the backlog when coming back but feel free to hl me :))
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