2021-01-30 GnuCash IRC logs

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12:14:15 <fell> https://code.gnucash.org/builds/win32/build-logs/maint/2021-01/build-maint-2021-01-30-03-01-02.log: no code for module (gnucash locale us tax txf-help)
12:14:43 <fell> no code for module (gnucash locale de_DE tax txf-help)
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12:19:10 <fell> gettext is still at, so translated 'developer_name' tag in gnucash.appdata.xml. Is it used in windows?
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13:37:19 <jralls_afk> fell, No, appdata is Linux only.
13:38:34 <fell> jralls, did you see the tr request from weblate?
13:39:07 <fell> It has been 3 years since the last update from TP
13:40:12 <fell> I think I will ask Emin, if there is still interest.
13:41:10 <fell> jralls_afk ^
13:41:32 *** jralls_afk is now known as jralls
13:41:56 <jralls> fell, Maybe CC the TP's turkish team leader.
13:42:49 <fell> The team, I thought.
13:48:12 <jralls> That would be a mailing list to which you'd have to subscribe.
13:48:47 <jralls> It
13:48:49 <fell> Yes, it isawaitning moderation..
13:51:42 <jralls> It's perhaps telling that the translator list has only 4 assignments indicated and GnuCash isn't one of them.
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14:28:39 <mauritslamers> hey all, i have a question: I am searching for a way to do a "subselection" in a report. The problem is VAT-related: I use a specific set of accounts to accumulate the VAT that need to be paid and that I paid. I have another set of accounts to accumulate the revenue. Is there a way to have a cumulative report which uses the VAT accumulation accounts bookings to select the linked bookings in the revenue account?
14:32:38 <mauritslamers> The problem I am trying to solve is: I finished my VAT declaration for a specific period, but now I discover that some invoice has not been properly filed in the system. I enter a new invoice in the previous period on the original date. This leads to the VAT to be calculated and acculumated fine, so no problem there.
14:32:57 <mauritslamers> However, I need to file my revenue for a VAT period as well.
14:35:45 <mauritslamers> To find my numbers, I can use the test balance report to find the amounts on the cumulative VAT accounts, I can use the Profit/Loss report to select the revenue for a specific period but in that combination I will miss the invoice that I put into the previous period. This means I will declare the right amount of VAT, but I won't be able to declare the correct revenue numbers that go with that.
14:37:11 <mauritslamers> My impression is that if I can select the bookings in the revenue accounts based on the bookings in the VAT accounts, I have the numbers I need. But I am unsure whether this is possible with the included reports...
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14:38:43 <mauritslamers> btw: the reason for the VAT being fine, is that at the end of the period these accounts should be empty...
14:41:32 <jralls> I don't think that QofQuery is able to handle multilevel queries. Your best bet would be to save as a SQLite3 file and use the sqlite3 command-line to write a query.
14:45:58 <mauritslamers> jralls: thanks! might the booking report be useful here?
14:46:32 <mauritslamers> it won't be an easy report, but it might still work, even if it is a two step process..
14:47:38 <mauritslamers> Say I select the revenue accounts, then set the filter to take the bookings from and to the VAT accounts...
14:48:00 <jralls> I don't know. I don't use the business features so I'm not really familiar with what's in the business reports. Another one you might consider is the Income and GST Statement.
14:49:41 <jralls> I don't see a Booking report. Are you sure that's the English name?
14:50:55 <mauritslamers> not sure, I tried google translate...
14:51:51 <mauritslamers> What was the way again to start gnucash in a different language from the cmdline?
14:53:09 <jralls> Depends on the OS. On Linux you can usually do LANG="C" gnucash and it will work.
14:53:50 <mauritslamers> jralls: on linux, indeed did that
14:54:16 <mauritslamers> I think it is the transaction report
14:54:53 <jralls> OK. That's sort of a Swiss Army knife report.
14:55:19 <mauritslamers> What I am wondering: does it indeed do what I think it is doing... :)
14:56:03 <mauritslamers> So, I select my revenue accounts, then set the filter to include transactions from/to filter accounts, and the set the filter accounts to the VAT accumulation accounts...
14:57:04 <jralls> If you have transactions with splits in both the revenue accounts and the vat accounts then I think your filter plan will work, but you said you wanted to match on the amounts and that won't.
14:57:24 <jralls> But it won't take but a minute to try, so go for it.
14:58:42 <mauritslamers> hmm, I think there is a one on one relation here. I have revenue accounts for every tax level, and I have equally matching VAT accounts.
15:01:19 <mauritslamers> No, that doesn't work...
15:01:19 <jralls> OK, does that help narrow the search?
15:01:50 <jralls> Because?
15:01:53 <mauritslamers> The problem is that the VAT accumulation accounts will not be empty
15:02:17 <mauritslamers> as in: it will be 0, but it will still contain bookings
15:03:50 <mauritslamers> unless there is a way to tag an invoice that its tax has been paid, there is no way to automatically recover that info
15:04:37 <mauritslamers> unless there is a kind of procedure which will "empty" the revenue accounts as well.
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15:05:57 <jralls> Close book will zero out the revenue and expense accounts to an equity account normally called in English "Retained Earnings".
15:07:47 <mauritslamers> Interesting... especially because the tutorial I originally used suggests that you don't have to do that...
15:07:49 <jralls> It does that by creating a transaction on the closing date that debits the revenue account by its balance and credits retained earnings the same amount one split for each account.
15:08:04 <jralls> You normally don't.
15:09:40 <jralls> But if you don't then the revenue and expense accounts grow forever and you use reports to get period snapshots of their totals.
15:09:45 <mauritslamers> There is one way to "correct" this... which is to verify manually the revenue entered at the last VAT declaration is still correct when selecting that period in the profit & loss report
15:09:56 <jralls> In you're case IIUC you're troubleshooting a missed invoice, right?
15:10:27 <mauritslamers> in my case I am actually adding a chapter to my dutch GnuCash manual for small businesses
15:10:36 <mauritslamers> on how to do the VAT
15:10:53 <mauritslamers> and the original manual of a bookkeeper makes a few assumptions that turn out not to be true
15:11:09 <jralls> OK, that's different. Have you looked at the Income and GST Statement report?
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15:14:33 <mauritslamers> jralls: yes, but that won't work, because I need to specify it on tax level
15:15:38 <jralls> chris, an enhancement request for your GST report! ;-)
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15:16:56 <mauritslamers> note: having a different language will also set different currencies as default... and the currency selector doesn't take keyboard input so it seems
15:17:35 <jralls> You can set the default in Preferences.
15:18:50 <jralls> The trick for the currency selector is to not use the arrow button. Select the whole contents of the text part and then type.
15:18:57 <mauritslamers> Ah, yes... new computer, just started using gnucash there
15:19:23 <mauritslamers> ah, yes, but almost any ui I know allows you to type to jump
15:19:37 <jralls> But not Gtk.
15:21:18 <mauritslamers> interesting... it seems that the transaction report might work after all...
15:22:38 <mauritslamers> no... it doesnt'... almost got excited there ;-)
15:23:27 <jralls> What if you run it once for each VAT level?
15:23:36 <Capt_Ahab> I have a question...Does Gnucash have an option to disable double-entries or is this still a "feature"?
15:24:13 <mauritslamers> jralls: you mean the income and GST report?
15:24:23 <jralls> Capt_Ahab, Double Entry is fundamental to both accounting and GnuCash. If that's not what you want then try KMyMoney.
15:24:53 <mauritslamers> no, it is easier to run the profit & loss report and the the trial balance in the end
15:25:11 <mauritslamers> and do some manual checking for the numbers... it only has to be done 4 times per year in the end
15:25:30 <jralls> mauritslamers, either. I've never had to deal with VAT except getting out of it when visiting a country that has it, so I'm utterly unqualified to help with that.
15:25:45 <Capt_Ahab> Does KMyMoney run on Windows?
15:25:54 <mauritslamers> jralls: hehe :)
15:26:04 <mauritslamers> Capt_Ahab: KDE does, so it might
15:26:06 <jralls> Capt_Ahab, no idea.
15:26:28 <mauritslamers> kdenlive also runs on windows, but YMMV as they say :)
15:28:01 <jralls> mauritslamers, good luck. You might try asking again early in the morning when gjanssens is here, he's a lot more knowledgable than I am about both the GnuCash business features and VAT.
15:28:34 <jralls> That's *your* morning, since he lives in Belgium.
15:28:44 <Capt_Ahab> Ahh okay...Thanks!
15:28:54 <mauritslamers> jralls: I know :=)
15:29:00 <jralls> Back in a couple of hours.
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16:11:15 <frakturfreak> mauritslamers: Assuming harmonized VAT laws in all EU countries, does the Dutch VAT law also contain provision allowing for cash based VAT accounting under certain circumstances? So paying VAT only one you got the payment and not already when providing the taxed service/posting the invoice? Because of your comment “tag an invoice that its tax has been paid”
16:13:28 <mauritslamers> frakturfreak: no, it doesn't work that way...
16:13:52 <mauritslamers> the system requires you to pay the VAT as soon as you write the invoice
16:14:04 <mauritslamers> whether or not you got paid...
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16:14:53 <mauritslamers> my comment was in a way meant as a different kind of tag: a tag that it had been tampered with or changed after the VAT accounts had been rebalanced.
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16:16:24 <mauritslamers> so, more of a tag like "I paid the required VAT on this invoice to the tax authorities", rather than "someone paid the VAT to me, so now I can pay it to the tax authorities"
16:18:09 <mauritslamers> frakturfreak: what I am not sure of is the system where the VAT obligation is being transferred to a different party, is that what you mean by "cash based VAT accounting"?
16:20:29 <frakturfreak> mauritslamers: No I mean the standard system here in germany is the same as in the netherlands you have to pay once you write the invoice. However if you made under 600k revenue in the last year or work in certain service oriented job like lawyer you can make an request at the tax authorities to pay the VAT only once you got the money from your customer.
16:22:10 <mauritslamers> frakturfreak: that is interesting... going to look that up...
16:23:22 <frakturfreak> For us it’s § 20 UStG My guesswork of dutch texts doesn’t work with your laws though …
16:24:18 <frakturfreak> For your problem I’d always book the VAT prepayment as liability at the end of the period to pay.
16:24:33 <mauritslamers> frakturfreak: I do, so that is not the issue
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16:25:12 <frakturfreak> Oh I see, so whether you have send a corrected vat return?
16:25:21 <mauritslamers> sort of, but not really
16:25:39 <mauritslamers> when you send in the VAT, you also have to declare the revenue that VAT was based on
16:25:50 <mauritslamers> for every VAT level separately
16:26:17 <mauritslamers> but what happens when you enter a new invoice, which is dated in the previous VAT period
16:26:33 <mauritslamers> the VAT gets added to the cumulative VAT accounts, so that is fine
16:26:46 <frakturfreak> same same (ok not in the last 6 months because of the rate cuts, it will be fun checking the next yearly vat declarations)
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16:27:06 <mauritslamers> but there is no way to have it added to the revenue as well
16:27:44 <mauritslamers> as in: it gets added to the revenue of the previous VAT period
16:27:52 <frakturfreak> Well technically it has to go to the last period output vat wise input vat wise you can always say that you got it later
16:28:15 <frakturfreak> But it should be if you’re working accrually it’s revenue of that period
16:28:28 <frakturfreak> the previous period that is
16:28:43 <mauritslamers> it should, techically
16:29:19 <mauritslamers> but the dutch system allows you to take it forward if the total amount is below 1000@
16:29:23 <mauritslamers> €1000
16:29:41 <mauritslamers> you only have to send in a correction if it gets above that
16:30:13 <frakturfreak> Cool, but that’s only VAT-wise right for income tax you still have to put it in the right period?
16:30:14 <mauritslamers> but in the current reports there is no way to even detect or see that you missed an invoice on the revenue side
16:30:59 <mauritslamers> income tax is a different story, because that is a yearly basis anyhow, and need to be done here before may 1st
16:31:33 <frakturfreak> What about using a special revenue account for these invoices, but no that over complicates matters
16:31:44 <mauritslamers> exactly, way too complex...
16:32:01 <mauritslamers> the easiest is simply checking what you entered as revenue the previous period
16:32:32 <mauritslamers> check whether that matches the total revenue, and if not add the bit extra that you missed before, because of the belated invoice
16:33:25 <mauritslamers> only if you see that it is more that € 1000, you should file a VAT-correction
16:34:53 <frakturfreak> So a corrected VAT report that list the differences between the reported vat, the would be new vat return and an optional button to move these revenues to the next period if the difference is small enough?
16:35:09 <frakturfreak> Btw is it 1000 € per invoice or in total?
16:35:21 <mauritslamers> per period afaik
16:35:54 <mauritslamers> I am not a bookkeeper, I just got this info from the site of a bookkeeper, but it might be that that info is old
16:38:18 <mauritslamers> and it is not old... luckily :)
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16:44:56 <frakturfreak> and your vat law does contain cashed based vat provision (article 26) my ministerial decree some groups that don’t sell to businesses can be allowed to do this
16:49:45 <mauritslamers> frakturfreak: interesting... haven't been able to find anything about it yet
16:50:12 <frakturfreak> Maybe there is no such decree
16:52:00 <frakturfreak> The funny thing is originally in the german VAT law of the 1950ies it was the other way around, cash based vat was the standard but in this system you had no input vat so and also it if the tax authorities can get the money before you have it the better for them
16:52:57 <mauritslamers> there is indeed an article 26 about that
16:53:13 <mauritslamers> 1968
16:55:40 <frakturfreak> That’s the year it’s originally from but it’s been changed many times
16:55:55 <mauritslamers> there is an active system indeed
16:56:13 <frakturfreak> But I couldn’t find 1000 € anywere in this law in regards to correcting the vat return
16:56:55 <mauritslamers> there are two systems: invoice system and cash system
16:57:36 <frakturfreak> so it might be a special additional law like it’s for us with the special prepayment for getting an extension to do the return or what constitues a minimal value invoice
16:58:11 <mauritslamers> if you use the invoice system, you need to do a so called "suppletie" if the difference in what you registered is either 1000 up (you have to pay) or 1000 euros down ( you need to receive)
16:58:22 <mauritslamers> anything inside that margin: just add to the next period
16:58:44 <mauritslamers> it is even more interesting: the cash system is obligatory for a number of people
16:58:57 <mauritslamers> quite a list as well
17:00:10 <mauritslamers> it would be very difficult for a market salesmen to do VAT on an invoice system
17:02:13 <frakturfreak> For us they wouldn’t have to do accrual accounting so if he’s cash based income tax wise they’re also for vat purposes
17:02:53 <frakturfreak> because theoretically they have no A/R (the fun begins once they do but that is another matter)
17:03:05 <mauritslamers> A/R?
17:03:50 <frakturfreak> accounts receivable i.e posting invoices to the accounts and not just directly debiting a cash account and revenue once the payment is made
17:04:46 <mauritslamers> ah, clear
17:06:04 <frakturfreak> the only way those can correct their vat payment is by input vat because the laws governing this are the same for all groups
17:08:59 <frakturfreak> you either have to have gotten the service and the corresponding invoice or gotten the service and made the payment in the correct period. (For the first part some tax offices are as mean as to look to look for an inbox date stamp and if it’s in the next month you have to post these input vats to temporary account)
17:10:10 <mauritslamers> :S
17:11:46 <frakturfreak> Same goes for something like invoices for telefphone services for december dated 03.01.2021 and payed by sepa direct debit on 10.01.2021 you’re out of vat luck there
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17:13:34 <frakturfreak> 4technically income tax wise these belong in the previous year but since the amount small enough to not make much of difference, tax offices will look the other way)
17:15:13 <mauritslamers> interesting... as far as I know the date of the invoice determines in which period they go
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17:15:38 <mauritslamers> so even if it is an invoice for use in december, but the date on the invoice is january, it belongs to january, not to december
17:16:08 <frakturfreak> Well that’s what we tell our clients for most the year unless it’s like the situation mentioned before
17:16:31 <frakturfreak> because it’s easier to remember (and quite frankly we also book this way)
17:17:15 <frakturfreak> but in recent years some tax accounting programs got an extra date/period of service input field to put these in the right period
17:18:58 <mauritslamers> interesting... I got something the other way around: I ordered something in december, but the date on the invoice is january
17:19:10 <mauritslamers> better: I ordered and paid in december
17:19:17 <mauritslamers> but the invoice states january
17:19:33 <mauritslamers> still, I will book it under december... :)
17:19:34 <frakturfreak> And got the delivery in december?
17:19:46 <mauritslamers> yes, delivery also in december
17:19:53 <frakturfreak> i think it’s article 13 for you
17:20:03 <frakturfreak> that regulates when to pay vat
17:25:32 <frakturfreak> interistingly it’s also article 13 for us
17:25:44 <mauritslamers> ah... found it...
17:25:48 <mauritslamers> I am not allowed to do that
17:26:24 <frakturfreak> That’s bonkers (income-tax-wise)
17:26:55 <frakturfreak> And you don’t have something like pre-payment invoices?
17:27:27 <frakturfreak> So a pro forma invoice with all the required data and the request to pay before the goods are deliverd?
17:28:25 <mauritslamers> "You calculate the VAT you deduct (because you paid to another business) on the basis of invoices which you received in the period on which you delcare. The date on the invoice decides in which period the VAT goes. You can only deduct the VAT when you received the invoice, also in case the supplier sends you the invoice too late"
17:29:53 <mauritslamers> So, even if the goods are delivered in december, if you get the invoice in january, you deduct the VAT you paid in the new VAT period
17:30:14 <frakturfreak> Yes bummer it’s the same here
17:31:03 <frakturfreak> (1) The entrepreneur can deduct the following input tax amounts: 1. the tax owed by law for deliveries and other services that have been carried out by another entrepreneur for his company. The exercise of the input tax deduction presupposes that the entrepreneur has an invoice issued according to §§ 14, 14a. Insofar as the separately shown tax amount does not apply to a payment
17:31:05 <frakturfreak> before these transactions are carried out, it is already deductible when the invoice is available and the payment has been made;
17:31:21 <frakturfreak> So that’s why I mentioned pro-forma invoices
17:31:36 <mauritslamers> yes, the only thing I have is an order confirmation
17:32:34 <frakturfreak> Well for us an invoice doesn’t have to be titled invoice if it has all required data it can be seen as invoice
17:33:03 <frakturfreak> but it it’s just an order confirmation with very little data and just the amount to pay
17:33:15 <frakturfreak> you’d also be out of luck here
17:33:49 <mauritslamers> ehm, I think I might actually be lucky
17:34:44 <frakturfreak> Did you in fact get two invoices?
17:35:45 <mauritslamers> I got a complete confirmation on the 24th of december with all the VAT info, the only thing missing was an official invoice number it seems
17:37:39 <mauritslamers> saves a lot of trouble :)
17:37:41 <frakturfreak> But an invoice has to have a number (I don’t whether you have the same sub law to the vat law that if the amount is low enough you don’t have to)
17:37:56 <frakturfreak> I guess you do because you seem happy
17:39:25 <frakturfreak> And I think technically there is a number for your so called invoice the order number
17:42:36 <mauritslamers> yep, and I might actually have an invoice on paper as well... have to go and look for it... but I already put it in the administration using the order number... just a small correction
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18:33:39 <chris> mauritslamers: not sure what you're trying to find out in your VAT mishap
18:34:07 <mauritslamers> chris: invoices that are entered with a date of a VAT-period that already has been declared
18:34:23 <mauritslamers> after that VAT has been filed
18:35:27 <mauritslamers> Those invoices are counted towards the accumulative VAT accounts, but they are still part of a previous period, so they won't show in the revenue accounts if you take the new VAT period
18:37:41 <chris> ah uh the report will obligatorily use the posted_date to both net-amount and vat-amount
18:38:15 <chris> s/report/income-gst-statement
18:39:10 <chris> interesting dilemma. i've fixed such mistakes in the past in my VAT/GST return by resubmitting it for the previous period.
18:39:27 <chris> (before doing it I fixed the old invoice - technically cooking the books)
18:39:46 <chris> (my tax authority allows amendments of previous VAT declaration)
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18:43:21 <chris> ths type of invoice/transaction tagging is unfortunately not supported
18:44:14 <chris> fwiw I wouldn't tag invoice; I'd tag transacton -- because I'd record business expenses + VAT paid using simple non-bill transactions
18:58:26 <frakturfreak> Is there a way to filter by taxtable used?
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21:00:56 <warlord> .
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22:01:23 <chris> mauritslamers: if I was writing a VAT bridge I'd use the reconciliation flag to tag VAT splits as 'Frozen' after they're submitted
22:02:19 <chris> frakturfreak: no because 1 invoice can have several entries each with differet taxtable. You can filter by tax account instead. Or in Income GST Statement enable Display / show tax accounts to show them separately.
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