2021-01-08 GnuCash IRC logs
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13:52:01 <trevdev> Hey Guys. Is there a way to do a budget report against more specific criteria? I've been using Ledger CLI and have gotten used to being able to organize budget on a person-by-person basis rathar than an account by account basis
13:52:58 <trevdev> I see that I can run a report on expense transaction descriptions, so if I add the person's name to the description, I can total their spending on "budgeted" transactions. I'm just not sure how to correlate it to an actual budget
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13:57:34 <Guest31988> what's the best way to access one gnucash file from two different computers?
13:57:53 <trevdev> On the same network?
13:58:15 <Guest31988> not necessarily. Desktop and laptop
13:59:24 <trevdev> If you're on GNU/Linux Samba is the simplest built-in system for folder/file sharing across a LAN. If you're gonna mix it up outside of your home then you may be looking at a thumb drive or perhaps some cloud sync solution
14:01:39 <Guest31988> thanks
14:04:17 <zoid> is this channel strictly for GNUCash support/development, or can I ask stupid accounting questions that are gnucash related? lol
14:06:06 <trevdev> I hope you can. If you can, I can too :P
14:08:17 <zoid> heh, I'm restarting my accounting for the new year. I've got debt (truck loan) I'm carrying over from 2020, do I add this as a debit in my expenses to account for the opening balance, or treat it as negative equity?
14:09:30 <trevdev> Great question! If it were me, I'd do what I do with all my Liabilities and just make them an opening balance and carry on as usual. It's what I did with our loans/credit
14:09:53 <trevdev> Opening Balance would come out of an Equity:Opening Balances account
14:10:20 <trevdev> Not an accountant, just been doing my own books for a little over a year now
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14:12:55 <trevdev> What's neat about doing it this way is you kinda get a quick look at your "networth" at the top of the year just by glancing at Equity:Opening Balances
14:14:45 <zoid> trevdev: thank you! That's the way I did it!
14:35:45 <trevdev> I feel like in my case if the budget system isn't going to work for me on a person-by-person basis, I'm just going to create sub-accounts for our chequing account and allocate money to them every month and track expenses from them
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14:45:06 <trevdev> Nope that won't work. Sometimes amounts are removed from budgets from sources other than the chequing account.
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14:56:40 <frakturfreak> zoid: The expense for the truck loan has already been recognized in a previous period. So the only way is dr opening balances cr loans. (Apart from the fact that fact that american accounting terminology misses a great fact, that opening balances isn’t really equity and should always be on a balance of 0).
14:57:33 <zoid> Yes, I'm unsure of why we do that here.
14:59:34 <jralls> frakturefreak Why do you think that opening balances aren't equity and what do you think they should be instead?
15:07:58 <frakturfreak> A special account type. Because for me it’s just a help account to that is a mirror image of the balance sheet and there isn’t a consolidated opening balance account. It kinda works, but doesn’t look right.
15:08:37 <jralls> There's no such thing in accounting as "special". The choices are Asset, Liability, and Equity.
15:09:40 <jralls> And the Accounting Equation, Assets = Liabilities + Equity, must be true.
15:12:48 <jralls> Opening balances isn't a helper, it's the personal equivalent to Paid in Capital or Shareholders' Equity in a corporate book.
15:12:56 <frakturfreak> I guess and also has to do with the fact, that there is no way to have accounts that depending on their balance flip side on the balance sheet. At least here in Germany when the balance of o/b isn’t zero it doesn’t get always treated as passive account but also as active.
15:13:30 <jralls> Nonsense.
15:14:22 <frakturfreak> But that’s just the way it is.
15:14:27 <jralls> If the balance of O/B was 0 then you wouldn't need it.
15:15:18 <frakturfreak> But that’s how it is done in professional accounting software in Germany.
15:15:40 <jralls> So it's always nonzero. It might have a debit balance because it's countering more liabilities than assets, but that wouldn't make it an asset itself.
15:20:00 <jralls> I think it would be more accurate to say that that's how you (mis)understand how professional accounting software in Germany handles opening balances, but there are two problems with that. First, it's obviously wrong. Second, professional accounting software is intended for companies and a business wouldn't have an opening balances account.
15:22:01 <frakturfreak> No it needs an equity account as long as they don’t to cash based accounting.
15:23:11 <frakturfreak> if you want to take a look: https://download.datev-shop.de/3617qqicGNiMqlrMQMKrJMytGq4TSBOh
15:24:01 <frakturfreak> 9000: Balances brought forward G/L accounts is listed as “Other accounts“.
15:24:05 <jralls> Of course it needs an Equity account; in fact it needs at least two: Shareholders' Equity if its a corporation, paid in capital if it's not and Retained Earnings.
15:24:25 <jralls> That link wants to download something. What is it?
15:25:25 <frakturfreak> The english tranlation of the SKR03 from DATEV, the de facto standard CoA for tax advisors and sme in germany
15:26:52 <frakturfreak> the “real“ equity accounts begin at 0800
15:28:25 <frakturfreak> For the download button: https://www.datev.de/web/de/datev-shop/material/skr-03-englisch/
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15:29:48 <jralls> Yup. And look at 0857, which goes on the balance sheet as Opening Balance, Private Account.
15:33:34 <frakturfreak> Well not in the german version. where it’s listed under reserves
15:34:33 <frakturfreak> Someone made a translation error there, but if you look at their names there all reserve accounts.
15:34:50 <zoid> I've been idling in this channel for a very long time, probably because I use GNUCash on a daily basis for my personal finances... but I have to say, this channel is pretty entertaining, and helpful. lol
15:38:55 <frakturfreak> Technically it also would like to have secondary account types so that if a bank account is on overdraft it isn’t displayed as an asset but as a liability.
15:39:15 <jralls> They are. And reserves are Assets, not Equity.
15:42:02 <jralls> Technically one should have a separate Overdraft liability account.
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15:46:22 <jralls> Anyway, someone messed up the balance sheet line for the reserve accounts. *Those* are assets, but 086X are retained earnings and 087x and 088x are owner's capital (including 0881 which is also designated for Opening Balances) and 09x is Partner Loans, another asset.
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15:47:07 <frakturfreak> These kind of reserves are equity.
15:47:45 <jralls> Because they balance actual asset accounts?
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15:49:34 <frakturfreak> There a equity reserves as contra accounts in equity for the corresponding changes in assets value due to following new regulatins.
15:51:27 <frakturfreak> yes there are there to balance actuall asset accounts
15:55:06 <frakturfreak> And in case of those „BilMoG“ accounts will only be used for just some years to show that you’ve complied with the new regulations until the will be listed on the usual equity accounts
15:56:11 <jralls> Sorry, BilMoG?
15:57:45 <frakturfreak> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilanzrechtsmodernisierungsgesetz
15:59:02 <frakturfreak> An umbrella law that changed some legal things on commercial accounting in Germany
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16:00:43 <frakturfreak> To help to make balance sheets arcording to german commercial law to give a better view on a company’s position
16:00:58 <jralls> So accounts that don't take part in the accounting equation but are used for computing additional balances to make sure that the accounting controls are working.
16:01:16 <jralls> A sort of triple-entry accounting if you like.
16:01:50 <frakturfreak> So yes there are techical accounts
16:02:30 <jralls> Not modelled in https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/blob/maint/data/accounts/de_DE/acctchrt_skr03.gnucash-xea
16:02:57 <frakturfreak> But not triple entry. The journal entries for these accounts are just the same as everyone else.
16:05:35 <frakturfreak> Isn’t that the SKR03 that still lists 16 % as standard VAT rate that ended in 2007 (ok was brought back now for half a year for the pandemic). So those accounts can’t be in there because the law i’ve linked above is from 2010.
16:08:39 <frakturfreak> I’ve wanted to make a comment on the sheer number of possible accounts but then thought about that you’d just select the ones you need in the wizard.
16:09:53 <jralls> Dunno about that. I wouldn't think that an account template would have a tax rate in it, but OTOH there's https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/commit/d64446ed7dcd356c60a73540af3f64f426447076#diff-2dab79f9963b18c0104011f6f58aa375c445af82d76ab06ba6d988e6a3686c31 titled "Adapt german SKR03 account template to updated tax rate." in 2014.
16:10:58 <jralls> So it seems to be getting some maintenance. OTOH any entity subject to BilMoG isn't going to be using GnuCash.
16:11:17 <frakturfreak> jralls: Yes that what I’ve also thought
16:11:39 <frakturfreak> the tax rate on the accounts is for convience reasons.
16:12:20 <frakturfreak> and for the tax office to check if the vat return is correct.
16:13:00 <jralls> Surely the tax office knows what the rate is!
16:13:37 <frakturfreak> There are two rates
16:14:43 <jralls> Only 2? IIRC the UK has several dozen, depending on the product.
16:16:22 <frakturfreak> Technically 4 for 2016: 19/7 (as standard) and due to covid19 16/7 from july till december. They’ll have fun auditing these returns because there said fuck it just put everything under the input field other rates.
16:16:43 <frakturfreak> So they will for sure need the balances of those accounts.
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16:18:39 <jralls> I guess two income statements, one for 30 June and one for 31 December would do it.
16:18:51 <frakturfreak> It gets even harder because instead of introducing new revenue accounts for the 5 % rate they’ve just decided to continue the old reduced rate account for 7 % so good luck checking that.
16:19:06 <frakturfreak> There will be no seperate incoming statement
16:19:32 <jralls> Good thing Germans never cheat on their taxes, eh? ;-)
16:19:57 <frakturfreak> Well our software handles it correctly on a transaction based method
16:20:24 <frakturfreak> But you can’t calculate back from the vat return or the balance sheet to check this year.
16:20:34 <jralls> And you probably have to remit rather more often than annually I expect.
16:21:10 <frakturfreak> jralls: Yes, that’s why there are sections on tax fraud in the german tax code ;)
16:24:14 <frakturfreak> jralls: Well always annually and addionally every quarter if the paid vat for the previous year exceeds €1000 and every month for over €7500 and if you’ve start you business for two years (but the last part got recently removed again, which I don’t really like because it helps to make new entrepreneurs tax complient).
16:25:10 <frakturfreak> Also you can choose to file monthly if your yearly return exceeds 7500 (mainly because you do zero rated exports or work in a reverse charge sector).
16:29:14 <jralls> So back to opening balances. Section 9 of SKR03 seems to be a bucket of all sorts of accounts, some of which aren't even money (9101: Selling days or 9103: Number of Employees) others are expenses (9159: Private taxes, solidarity surcharge, 9200: Direct Labor costs) or assets (9245-9247 Receivables from asset sales) or income (9287, interest for postings via recievables). There are a bunch of contra accounts for the prec
16:29:14 <jralls> eding account so I guess those are just for reporting of some sort.
16:30:41 <frakturfreak> Yes there just there for reporting and in some cases might just be there from DOS times because nowadays you can have these fields in the company data section where the reports pull those information.
16:31:26 <jralls> By DOS you mean MSDOS? Lol!
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16:33:04 <frakturfreak> yes that’s how old this is, sometimes I thing it’s a bloated mess and there still adding and changing accounts
16:33:43 <jralls> I think you have a good argument for bloated mess.
16:36:13 <jralls> I don't think you have a good argument that an Opening Balance account isn't Equity. I'm not sure that you can make a good argument that any account belongs in any particular major category based on that document. It seems to be very jumbled. No doubt there's a voluminous law (we call that kind of law a Code in English) that details how to use each account.
16:38:08 <frakturfreak> Well in english you’ve have to place it under equity because you don’t do it as we do and differentiate into active and passive balance sheet accounts
16:38:48 <frakturfreak> but instead go to the subdivision of these account types directly
16:39:48 <jralls> Yes, but unless you have another subdivision that we don't it still has to go to Equity. It's not a liability.
16:41:12 <frakturfreak> I’d have to reboot to windows to check with our software but I’m sure it’s listed as neither.
16:42:02 <frakturfreak> also for our companies software
16:42:07 <jralls> Check your accounting textbook or any published corporate balance sheet.
16:43:54 <jralls> Everything I've seen says Active has one subsection, Assets, and Passive has two, Liabilities and Equity.
16:43:54 <frakturfreak> hm …
16:44:23 <frakturfreak> Active as two basic subsections: fixed assets and current assets
16:44:55 <jralls> No, *assets* has to subsections, fixed and current. Active has one subsection, Assets.
16:46:43 <jralls> Liabilities similarly has current and long term, and Equity has income, expense, retained earnings, and capital.
16:46:52 <frakturfreak> https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/hgb/__266.html
16:49:04 <frakturfreak> based on the size of the company some of those sections can be ommitted and be listed in other sections but you always have at least the for sections I’ve mentioned
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16:55:50 <jralls> OK, Google Translate translates Aktiv as Assets and Passiv as Liabilities but also Verbindlichkeiten as Liabilities. If one translated Passiv as "Liabilities and Equity" then it would look just like a US balance sheet except we put Equity after liabilities instead of before.
16:57:30 <jralls> We also put prepaid income and deferred taxes under Liabilities (and Prepaid expenses under current assets).
16:59:44 <frakturfreak> I think in the swiss they do it like in the us in regards to the order of liabilities and equity
17:00:28 <jralls> Note that those 9000 accounts from SKR-3 would go in (3)A IV Gewinnvortrag/Verlustvortrag. ISTM opening balances goes in (3) A 1 Gezeichnetes Kapital.
17:01:24 <jralls> I believe you're right about Swiss ordering; we had a recent enhancement request about that for the Balance Sheet Report that chris made a report option for.
17:03:15 <frakturfreak> ISTM?
17:03:23 <jralls> It Seems To Me.
17:03:56 <jralls> Oh, in US GAAP Rückstellungen goes under Verbindlichkeiten too.
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17:04:20 <frakturfreak> Yes Gewinnvortrag/Verlustvortrag would be better suited
17:04:57 <frakturfreak> because gezeichnetes kapital is a limited company’s equity according to their statutes
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17:05:51 <frakturfreak> Well it’s a kind of liability, same goes for your remarks to prepaid expenses and revenue
17:06:33 <jralls> Right. The accounting is the same, it's just minor categorization differences.
17:06:34 <frakturfreak> the hgb just chooses to list them a seperate
17:07:18 <frakturfreak> As you’ve said
17:09:53 <frakturfreak> It would be hard if the basic principles of accounting were different.
17:12:18 <jralls> But do individual people think of themselves as having Gewinnvortrag/Verlustvortrag? I sure don't. I don't think of having retained earnings either, though I suppose that could be applied to unspent wages.
17:16:24 <frakturfreak> Those subdivisions are only used for corporations
17:17:17 <frakturfreak> you don’t see retained earnings on a sole propretiors balance sheet nore for simple partnerships
17:18:16 <jralls> Really? I did when I was running a simple partnership, to separate the amount that each of the partners had contributed at startup and the accumulated profits.
17:19:28 <jralls> Because we shared the profits based on the ratio of contributed capital and not keeping that separate would have made calculating the payouts harder.
17:19:43 <frakturfreak> Of course you can
17:20:41 <frakturfreak> for partnerships there can up to 3 equity accounts per partner depending on the statutes
17:20:46 <jralls> Ah, you meant that it's not required for reporting. Right, I saw that section 267a companies can report a single Equity line on their balance sheets.
17:26:39 <frakturfreak> And also note that section 266 para 1 setence 1 is the only relevant part for partnerships and sole propretiors. The rest legally only concerns limited corporations. But since they’ve provided such a nice modell it’s also adopted for them.
17:27:02 <jralls> OK.
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17:33:40 <frakturfreak> But in regards to your point to partnerships it just that at least our software has built-in module where you can tally up the equity, even it’s all just 2 accounts so one for each partner
17:35:59 <jralls> How is that different from GnuCash where you might have Equity:Partners:PartnerA and Equity:Partners:PartnerB?
17:36:17 <frakturfreak> Not in any way
17:37:48 <frakturfreak> but you’ve talked about an example where you’ve subdivided those accounts even further into the ammount they’ve contributed at the startup and the accumulated profits
17:38:24 <frakturfreak> the same is true here, you can do that if you want to be specific in the balance sheet without running a seperate report.
17:39:22 <frakturfreak> you can also add a third subdivision if you’d regulate the withdrawal of profits
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17:39:42 <jralls> No, the accumulated profits were Equity:Retained Earnings. We'd periodically declare a dividend from retained earnings and divvy it up based on each partner's share of the partner's equity.
17:40:40 <frakturfreak> ok
17:42:23 <jralls> But I see where you're going: The unpaid retained earnings can be allocated to each partner so that they maintain a proportional share of the overall capital and if one decides to take a dividend that reduces their overall share.
17:42:26 <frakturfreak> but what about private deposits/withdrawals just for one partner, wouldn’t those screw their sahre
17:44:53 <jralls> That didn't come up but yes that would have affected the partner's paid-in-capital account and changed the payout ratio.
17:46:06 <fell> About the statistical data: If you want a credit you often have to show the form BWA and for that, you need that numbers: Revenue/employee, …
17:47:00 <frakturfreak> Depending on the statutes of the company it can by based on persons or a fixed perencentage but your model is also possible
17:47:14 <jralls> OK. I think jamming all of that stuff into a balance sheet is a bit weird.
17:47:33 <frakturfreak> fell: Do you really book those fields with datev? in our software there usually input fields in company data
17:49:50 <fell> It is not implemented in Gnucash, but in case someone wants to create the BWA stuff…
17:50:30 <frakturfreak> with cost centers …
17:50:47 <jralls> Let's not...
17:51:28 <frakturfreak> and inventory for fixed assets with every (tax) depreciation method there is in the world …
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18:04:15 <fell> jralls: The attorney will be intereested in your private withdrawals short before you filed bancrupcy. ;-)
18:04:53 <jralls> Yes he would. The court would generally make me give them back.
18:09:43 <frakturfreak> I’m going to bed, it was fun talking with you.
18:12:23 <jralls> Likewise. Good night!
18:12:27 <fell> About the order of accounts: it is country specific, either long term assets+Equity first or short term assets+liabilities first. That would allow a glimpse about the liquidity. https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/De/Referenz#Bestandskonten
18:12:56 <fell> Sweet dreams!
18:28:44 <chris> jralls: progress in QR -- didn't know how easy to tell cmake to load qrencode. now how to convert char* to SCM list? see #845 - C segfaults
18:33:31 <jralls> For the first you have to find its CFLAGS and LDFLAGS either with pkg-config or Cmake FindLibrary, then add the result to the target's dependencies.
18:34:24 <jralls> Aren't you going the other way, converting the SCM string that you want to encode into a char*?
18:34:40 <chris> no, char* -> SCM list
18:35:01 <chris> (back later going to dentist myself)
18:37:50 <jralls> OK. SCM bar = scm_list_1(scm_from_utf8_string(foo));
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20:21:26 <chris> can't use scm_from_utf8_string - it's bytes rather than chars
20:21:30 <chris> can't use scm_from_utf8_string - it's bytes rather than utf8
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20:39:02 <chris> I did it \o/
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23:00:12 <chris> #845 works \o/ warlord jralls
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