2020-11-22 GnuCash IRC logs
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05:38:25 <chris> jralls fwiw I don't like the use of lots of FIFO/LIFO nor average, as suggested by policy.c too fragile
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06:12:49 <gjanssens> .
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09:34:21 <chris> Interesting re: 798015 - the error is an exception in C however it's caught by guile an reported in backtrace
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13:14:13 <jralls> chris, Lots might be fragile but it's the correct way to do it.
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13:25:32 <jralls> chris C doesn't do exceptions, that's C++. What's happening is that the gnc_numeric returned by gnc-pricedb-convert-balance-nearest-price-t64 is returning an error value. GnuNumeric error values are represented as -n/0 and apparently the code in gnc:exchange-by-pricedb-nearest doesn't check gnc_numeric_error() and just tries to convert it to a number with a 0 denominator and that causes Scheme to throw a numeric-overflow exception.
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16:07:19 <CDB-Man> chris: ive never really understood how to read or navigate these mailing lists.... it's all very confusing to read, as it's not a straight line like a forum
16:07:31 <CDB-Man> this is why i dont take part in them at all
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16:29:27 <jralls> CDB-Man, most mail clients are able to group emails by thread or conversation (same thing, different names). Otherwisse you can use nabble.com which preesnts mailing lists like a web forum.
16:30:09 <CDB-Man> i know re: conversation view, gmail does just that
16:30:30 <CDB-Man> but it's still nigh difficult to follow, esp when people don't reply to the last item, and there are lots of forks
16:30:46 <CDB-Man> in any case, i have zero intention of ever participating in a mailing list
16:31:19 <CDB-Man> if we had a forum, that would be something different
16:31:38 <CDB-Man> phpbb or anything actual forum-like
16:32:57 <fell> That was a nice thing, when I bought my first modem, ;-)
16:35:19 <fell> Today I am always annoyed searching BBS. Important parts a too often hidden by morere recent, but meaningless posts.
16:36:28 <fell> But tastes are different.
16:37:44 <CDB-Man> the discountinuity in mailing lists is the most jarring
16:38:42 <fell> Parallel threads in IRC log are harder to read than in mailing lists.
16:39:16 <CDB-Man> thankfully, most of the time, IRC is only 1 topic being discussed at a time
16:41:28 <fell> For the ML I usually use this view: https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2020-November/thread.html
16:42:15 <CDB-Man> ...... yep, keep me away from that
16:42:16 <fell> In my email client I collaps all other threads than the interesting.
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16:43:36 <fell> Threads with new posts are highlighted.
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16:44:43 <CDB-Man> the forking of threads is what jarrs the most
16:44:56 <CDB-Man> I want a single continuity of all messages on a subject, and that's what a forum does
16:45:11 <CDB-Man> and if there's anything that gets into a side topic, it gets split into a new thread
16:45:22 <CDB-Man> which is all why I don't use mailing lists
16:46:53 <CDB-Man> its even worse that various emai lclients trreat them differently
16:47:00 <CDB-Man> some amending new messages to the top, others to the botttom
16:47:44 <fell> and in some you have the choice of order.
16:48:09 <CDB-Man> mailing lists do not have a single source of truth in the purest sense... since everyone' mail provider isn't responding in real time
16:48:36 <CDB-Man> s/real time/single time
17:03:48 <CDB-Man> chris: hmm, maybe instead of using the "dividend" activity flag, i should use the "dist" flag for ROC and NDs
17:03:53 <CDB-Man> i will give it thought
17:07:46 <CDB-Man> chris: hmm, it looks like if I have a sale where the proceeds goes into an account OTHER than the selected proceeds accpount in the report options, you simply record nothing other than the change in # units. i would have ecpexted that you would still compute the ACB of sale, combined with null proceeds, resuolts in a gain pre commissionf of a giant loss
17:08:17 <CDB-Man> also lets rename all "acb" references to "average cost basis"
17:09:06 <CDB-Man> i know, it coincidentally has the same acronym "acb", but "acb" in particular is canadian terminaology that means something else -- "adjusted cost basis"
17:12:44 <CDB-Man> screenshot: https://ibb.co/LQwkVVp here is the report, where acb of sale was not computer, and therefore no gain computed -- eve though it did not find the proceeds due to me using a different account, it stil recognized "close long" in the notes. so i would have expected the acb of sale still to be calculated
17:13:02 <CDB-Man> screenshot: here are the journal entries https://ibb.co/jg5yhvm
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17:25:15 <CDB-Man> if you are wondering what this transaction actually is.... it is a stock that is dual-listed in both CAD and USD, so I purchased it with USD and sold it in CAD
17:26:37 <CDB-Man> since gnucsh does not play nicely with 2 stocks in the same transaction... I essentially have to "sell" my USD stocks into a USD holding account that's a regular asset account. then i net this USD holding account against a CAD holding account. From the CAD holding account, I transfer the value into a CAD stock account which counts as a "buy", so that i can eventually sell the stock from the CAD stock account
17:27:01 <CDB-Man> it's the only nice way ive figured out how to do it
17:28:18 <CDB-Man> i suppose i could send the proceeds directly into a CAD cash account from the USD stock.... dont know how well that would work out
17:30:32 <CDB-Man> perhaps it will be alright with better root currency support
17:30:54 <jralls> What about two DLR-U.TO accounts, one whose parent is a USD-denominated account and the other a CAD one, and just transfer the shares from one to the other?
17:31:18 <CDB-Man> that is exacly what i have right now jralls
17:31:54 <CDB-Man> how would it be valued when you attempt to do the share to share swap
17:32:24 <CDB-Man> right now i essentially sell/buy the shares into proxy vanilla asset accounts
17:32:37 <CDB-Man> and have the positive and negative positions bet out in the proxy accounts
17:32:48 <CDB-Man> 2 proxies, 1 cad and 1 usd
17:33:21 <jralls> I don't understand why the proxy account is necessary.
17:33:55 <CDB-Man> well, I think i set them up years ago, because i tried to do a direct share for share transfer... and it dint work
17:34:21 <CDB-Man> there would be *4* currencies
17:34:29 <jralls> But you don't remember why not. That's too bad.
17:34:41 <CDB-Man> DLR (CAD), DLR (USD), CAD cash, USD cash, 4 rates
17:35:01 <CDB-Man> DLR shows up in price DB twice mind you, as DLR.TO (CAD) and DLR-U.TO (USD)
17:35:08 <chris> oohi heard about these duak-listed stocks... allow you to save on forex fees
17:35:21 <CDB-Man> since you can pull its quotaton on both CAD and USD
17:35:46 <jralls> DLR is a commodity, not a currency, and DLR(CAD) and DLR(USD) represent prices, not separate commodities.
17:35:58 <CDB-Man> chris: yes, here is a link to a canadian specific piece of literature on the topic: https://www.pwlcapital.com/norberts-gambit-rbc-direct-investing/
17:36:09 <CDB-Man> jralls: they are separate commodities
17:36:15 <CDB-Man> 2 TRADING accounts
17:36:27 <jralls> Only because you made them that way. Why did you make them that way?
17:36:41 <CDB-Man> why wouldn't I? else price DB won't pull both prices for them
17:36:47 <CDB-Man> F::Q that is
17:37:34 <CDB-Man> it's 1 physical stock, but its dual listed on 2 tickers, each with its own floating market price, in both CAD and USD, so both need to be pulled by F::Q if i want market rates in both currencies
17:37:56 <CDB-Man> at any given time, I can own DLR units in my broker account on both the CAD and USD settled side of the account
17:38:09 <CDB-Man> for example, I can hold 300 units i purchased with CAD, and 500 units purchased with USD
17:38:19 <CDB-Man> for a total of 800 units, but priced in the respective currencies
17:39:24 <CDB-Man> the broker listing shows 2 entries, on the CAD page of my statement it will show DLR.TO 300 units, and on the USD page of my statement DLR-U.TO 500 units
17:39:51 <CDB-Man> since I have 4 exchange rates, i believe gnucash cannot handle that many in 1 transaction, so i need to use prxy accounts
17:40:15 <CDB-Man> the proxy accounts cause their own problems, but that's a problem for another day
17:41:16 <CDB-Man> having root currency support means everything is valued in CAD in my case, so i would reduce to 3 rates (?) and all would be well
17:42:18 <CDB-Man> the price of DLR in CAD (pulled by FQ in CAD natively), the price of DLR-U in CAD (pulled by FQ in USD, but converted from USD ot CAD using the CADUSD rate on transaction date)
17:43:21 <CDB-Man> the USD commodity does not show its head in the transaction when i "journal" the shares from USD to CAD, the only 3 commodities that appear are DLR, DLR-U, and CAD dollars
17:44:51 <CDB-Man> chris: after you'v ehad a chance to see above on that screenshot... let me know your thoughts
17:45:11 <jralls> But your screenshot shows neither DLR nor CAD.
17:45:35 <CDB-Man> that one is only 1 side of thr transaction
17:46:48 <jralls> No, it's in split view so it's only two of three(?) transactions.
17:47:13 <CDB-Man> sorry, what i meant is that is only the DLR-U side of the series of transaction
17:47:25 <CDB-Man> https://ibb.co/mcgyCC0 here is thre DLR side
17:47:34 <CDB-Man> and the 3rd side is when i net my proxies together
17:47:41 <CDB-Man> which i'm actually just keying in right now
17:50:15 <jralls> Do DLR and DLR-U actually trade separately so that you're arbing the price difference vs. the exchange rate?
17:50:21 <chris> busy right now;-)
17:50:56 <CDB-Man> yes
17:51:06 <CDB-Man> there is potential for arbitrage
17:51:25 <CDB-Man> all of the canadian banks (royal bank of canada, TD financial, etc, are also all dual listed
17:51:32 <CDB-Man> in their case, on toronto and NYSE
17:52:02 <CDB-Man> https://ibb.co/pnGj2kq here is the eventual settlement of the CAD and USD proxy accounts, this screenshot is in the CAD proxy account
17:52:21 <CDB-Man> (dont mind the discontinuous running total... there are several transactions between these 2 screenshotted)
17:53:41 <CDB-Man> https://ibb.co/0jw5MDh and here's the USD proxy account
17:53:54 <CDB-Man> so in summary
17:55:31 <CDB-Man> 1. buy DLR-U.TO in the DLR-U.TO stock account
17:55:31 <CDB-Man> 2. "sell" it into the USD proxy. the DLR-U.TO account is now $0
17:55:31 <CDB-Man> 3. "short sell" from CAD proxy so that the DLR.TO stock account can "buy"
17:55:31 <CDB-Man> 4. actual sell in DLR.TO, this account is now $0
17:55:31 <CDB-Man> 5. net the CAD proxy short position against the USD proxy long position, both proxies now are $0
17:55:49 <CDB-Man> net effect, bought DLR-U.to, and sold it as DLR.TO
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17:57:19 <jralls> Net effect you paid your broker $20 to convert USD10816 to CAD 14253. ;-)
17:57:28 <CDB-PHONE> yes
17:57:41 <CDB-PHONE> which is a lot cheaper than the 2.5% mark-up
17:57:56 <CDB-PHONE> typical in an actual cash conversion request
17:58:03 <jralls> Yow.
17:58:36 <CDB-PHONE> also it's $10 CAD + $10 USD commission, so more like $23 CAD
17:58:54 <CDB-PHONE> as you may have already contemplated, the break even is approx $1000 CAD converted
17:59:05 <CDB-PHONE> less than that, pay the broker 2.5%
17:59:12 <CDB-PHONE> more than that, do this transaction
18:00:14 <CDB-PHONE> this transaction is so popular in Canada, it's called Norbert's gambit
18:00:27 <CDB-PHONE> named after the guy that popularized it
18:00:42 <jralls> Ah, I saw the note about that in one of the memos.
18:00:48 <CDB-PHONE> and also the the contents of the article I linked to Chris
18:01:21 <CDB-PHONE> my transactions are designed specifically not to incur any p&l impact
18:01:42 <CDB-PHONE> since in my mind I consider it a currency conversion rather than a gain or lose
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18:02:11 <CDB-PHONE> the tax man thinks differently of course, in my favour actually, since the capital loss from the fees paid becomes deductible
18:02:23 <jralls> Still unexplained is what goes wrong if you just transfer the 1070 shares between USD:DLR-U.TO and TSX:DLR.TO at a price of 1.
18:02:45 <CDB-PHONE> your would build up a trading gain loss
18:03:00 <CDB-PHONE> and the register may also crash (?)
18:03:09 <CDB-PHONE> is something vague in my memory
18:03:23 * chris wish I understood tax better... it's a non zero sum game
18:03:54 <CDB-PHONE> there is no unrealized trading gain loss after my series of transactions depicted in the screenshots
18:04:00 <jralls> Yeah, but you'd have to give up both medicine and programming to have time to learn! ;-)
18:04:05 <CDB-PHONE> everything is flushed to zero
18:04:30 <CDB-PHONE> indeed, that's what I'm here for Chris lol
18:04:40 <CDB-PHONE> it's my (former) full time job
18:04:44 <CDB-PHONE> accounting and tax
18:05:03 <CDB-PHONE> soon to be walking away from both for the more profitable field of consulting
18:05:10 <chris> oooh
18:05:35 <CDB-PHONE> a GAAP accountant knows nothing about tax
18:05:44 <CDB-PHONE> and a tax accountant knows nothing about GAAP
18:05:51 <CDB-PHONE> both of them are THAT complex
18:06:40 <CDB-PHONE> (that's a hyperbole of course, they know the very basics of each... but I really mean only the very basics)
18:06:48 <chris> you must have more postnominals than me
18:06:58 <jralls> enabling the simultaneous enrichment of both accountants. That's what having friends in the legislature will do for you. ;-)
18:06:58 <chris> or jralls
18:08:05 <jralls> jralls's only postnomial, "MSIE" isn't worth bothering with.
18:08:05 <CDB-PHONE> I didn't stick around long enough in either accounting or tax to earn them all, but if I had stayed longer, for sure
18:08:27 <chris> i usually have time to review bugs and play with datafiles between clients (!) but no irc access, hence I tend to update bugzilla during my working hours
18:08:51 <CDB-PHONE> CPA, CA, LPA, CICA, CIA,
18:08:58 <CDB-PHONE> I only have the first 2
18:09:06 <CDB-PHONE> thank God
18:10:00 <chris> jralls has medals instead
18:10:34 <jralls> The US forces don't turn those into postnomials.
18:11:27 <CDB-PHONE> consider an IRC web client, CDB-Work uses kiwi IRC
18:11:29 <jralls> And I got only a few of the lowest-level attaboys. Nothing heroic.
18:11:58 <jralls> Or a phone app.
18:12:50 <chris> maybe. if work firewall allows it. it blocks all mail webapps.
18:14:26 <jralls> Do you connect your phone to the work wifi?
18:14:46 <chris> No regular 4G
18:15:24 <chris> CDB if your Norbert txns have different cash accts, no wonder it can't find them
18:16:41 <jralls> So no firewall there. There are IRC client phone apps. I use one called liteIRC on 'droid.
18:17:01 <chris> acb-tool needs to know how to analyze a txn perfectly, ie no ambiguity
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18:18:58 <CDB-PHONE> no cash accounts yes, but that's beside the lungs
18:19:04 <CDB-PHONE> beside the point*
18:19:30 <CDB-PHONE> I was expecting that the ACB of sale still calculates and reduces the cumulative basis
18:19:44 <CDB-PHONE> perhaps we need to introduce better matching rules
18:19:49 <CDB-PHONE> and I can help with that
18:19:54 <chris> oh
18:20:30 <CDB-PHONE> note on the very first screenshot the circled blank is ACB of sale
18:21:03 <CDB-PHONE> I would have expected $0 proceeds minus non zero ACB equals a gross loss
18:21:09 <CDB-PHONE> instead it's all blank
18:22:20 <CDB-PHONE> and we need to start saying average cost (basis) rather than ACB, as the acronym confuses everyone
18:22:32 <CDB-PHONE> and also happens to overlap with a Canadian tax term
18:22:41 <CDB-PHONE> that includes renaming the report
18:24:02 <CDB-PHONE> are you using Android or iPhone?
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18:24:15 <CDB-PHONE> I use AndroIRC on phone
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18:31:44 <chris> what's the best (basic accounting) definition of basis?
18:32:58 <CDB-PHONE> cost basis is the cumulative inputs to bring an asset into use, that are not immediately recognized as an expense
18:33:19 <CDB-PHONE> the biggest component typically being the purchase price of the asset itself
18:33:43 <chris> fwiw most of my medico colleague are both risk-averse to tax, and averse to keeping records. to our shame :( failing in our moral duty to legally minimise tax burden.
18:34:58 <CDB-PHONE> they are not alone
18:35:11 <CDB-PHONE> it's why so many people just pay their accountants
18:35:24 <CDB-PHONE> and also why so many bad accountants get away with things
18:36:56 <chris> for your Norbert gambit may I suggest populating spreadsheet with a typical txn?
18:38:07 <CDB-PHONE> the spreadsheet lacks the capability to show all the mechanics
18:38:18 <CDB-PHONE> and also not what the spreadsheet is for
18:38:43 <CDB-PHONE> the spreadsheet would simply show buy 100 units USD, sell 100 units CAD
18:38:50 <CDB-PHONE> and all the magic works
18:39:21 <CDB-PHONE> the fact that in actuality you need 2 stock accounts, already disqualifies use of the cost basis tool
18:39:32 <CDB-PHONE> which necessarily only works on 1 stock account
18:40:42 <chris> i'll need to see how to fix during the week.
18:42:14 <chris> jralls: gnc-numeric-error - so the error is possibly in swig which should convert gnc-numeric-error into #f
18:43:19 <jralls> chris, Yes, it should at least do that.
18:43:26 <chris> jralls: wrt lots for calculating fifo/lifo gains - I appreciate it's the gnucash way of doing it, but isn't it fragile in needing scrubbing regularly? I'd have thought it's easy to scan the stock acct everytime we want to calculate capgain during a sale.
18:45:39 <chris> the error is in gnc-engine-guile.c -- gnc_numeric_to_scm which does scm_divide therefore throws a scheme exception appropriately
18:46:40 <chris> it should do: return gnc_numeric_check (arg) ? SCM_BOOL_F :
18:46:42 <chris> scm_divide(scm_from_int64(arg.num), scm_from_int64(arg.denom))
18:47:03 <jralls> chris, GnuCash didn't invent lots, it's an accounting thing. Consider that if you have a series of buys and partial sells where the sell amounts don't break on buy boundaries then to use FIFO or LIFO you have to keep track of which shares at what price have already been sold so that you can apply the right basis to the next sale. That's what lots does.
18:48:44 <jralls> chris, OK, assuming that division is exact and returns a scheme rational.
18:50:16 <chris> i saw in advanced-portfolio how to scan stock and maintain a basis list to find lots remaining
18:55:14 <jralls> Oh, mta wrote his own? Not a big surprise, capgains.c & policy.c are a bit of a mess and really ugly code. It would be better to have only one version though.
18:57:56 <chris> see: https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/blob/150bfc8d1b0f55c62f19fc3ed30c0da69a076a65/gnucash/report/reports/standard/advanced-portfolio.scm remove-from-head to SELL the head lot
19:01:22 <jralls> OK.
19:02:03 <chris> of course these nice well-written functions are mine, and needed to be revert to his ugly mess
19:02:15 <chris> because I was breaking advanced-portfolio.cm
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19:02:58 <jralls> It's only well-written if it works! ;-)
19:02:59 <chris> see his basis-builder
19:04:03 <chris> ^ in maint
19:05:11 <chris> still my view remains - the stock has data, the lots have data, the capgains calculator needs to rely on lots having updated and accurate data. it could scan the stock acct directly. if user messes up lots using the lot viewer, then capgain calculator will produce garbage.
19:05:41 <chris> fifo/lifo are imv simple enough and don't need jurisdiction specific tweaks
19:06:12 <chris> I don't think I'll be able to create capgain calculator myself so my view is moot
19:06:59 * chris needs to get read
19:07:03 * chris needs to get ready soon
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19:27:14 <CDB-Man> [2020.11.22 18:40:42] <chris> i'll need to see how to fix during the week. <-- i take it to mean the thing about no acb of sale being calculaed?
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20:08:14 <CDB-Man> jralls: i forgot to ask, so after that explanation of the dual-listed stocks, know if any better way than the 5-step process i currently go through?
20:08:25 <CDB-Man> i dont think there's a better way, unil we have root currency support
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20:51:50 <AndroUser> CDB: yes
20:52:01 *** AndroUser is now known as chris-phone
20:52:19 <CDB-Man> dont forget to register nickserv to group it to your main chris
20:52:30 <CDB-Man> . /nickserv group chris <pwd>
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21:31:19 <chris-phone> Advanced portfolio calls these ROC/ND txns "spinoff"
21:32:55 <chris-phone> No, I think ROC is called spinoff
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21:48:17 <chris-phone> What I may do to advanced portfolio is to copy to experimental and refactor there
21:48:46 <chris-phone> Best on a private branch
22:22:06 <CDB-Man> RIP as spinoff.... yeah... idk how MA ca,me up wit hthat term
22:22:10 <CDB-Man> nothing obvious comes to mind
22:22:48 <CDB-Man> chris-phone: don't forget to group your phone nick with your main one via /msg nickserv group chris <pwd>
22:23:14 <CDB-Man> ROC as spinoff*
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