2020-11-19 GnuCash IRC logs
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02:24:44 <Aussie_matt> does gnucash have a discord channel?
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07:41:37 <warlord> @tell Aussie_matt nope. We use IRC and the Email lists, not discord.
07:41:37 <gncbot> warlord: The operation succeeded.
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08:20:31 <fell> CDB-Man,about https://lists.gnucash.org/logs/2020/11/18.html#T08:54:17: There is not one GAAP, but more ore less different *-GAAPs for almost all english speaking countries. We try to stay close to IFRS instead.
08:29:21 <chris> fell: I agree ACB is Canadian specific, however, I am not sure it describes a worldwide view of the average price of a security
08:30:07 <chris> so far we have CDB-Man and Selinger both using ACB, and no one else has defined how they calculate average cost, accounting for fees/dividends/capgains etc
08:31:39 <chris> it seems to be a very fair country-agnostic method to calculate cost though
08:31:52 <chris> other countries may mandate a different view
08:32:18 <chris> and if a user wishes to understand how average-cost-base report works, they have plenty of canadian literature to refer
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11:16:26 <fell> chris, each week I have to look up "ACB" again while "cost based" would bw quite clear.
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11:19:16 <fell> Also in DE "cost based" is more common than US-GAAP's "fair value". Perhaps Frakturfreak can tell you more details.
11:21:13 <fell> But I should admit, I did not look in your algorithms. So I talk only about the principle methods.
11:24:36 <fell> And the main purpose of my rename request: If I do not understand your terms, for other translators it will be more difficult.
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11:35:53 <fell> @tell chris https://lists.gnucash.org/logs/2020/11/19.html#T11:16:26
11:35:53 <gncbot> fell: The operation succeeded.
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11:39:31 <fell> gjanssens, jralls: in https://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-de/2020-November/011869.html the user is confused by the pathes in the logs. Was it intended to have the full path of the build server?
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11:53:15 <fell> warlord, despite https://code.gnucash.org/builds/flatpak/build-logs/maint/2020-11/build-maint-2020-11-18-01-00-02.log says "Uploading flatpakref file 'gnucash-maint-C4.2-212-g4332c5841-D4.2.flatpakref'" I see no corresponding file in https://code.gnucash.org/builds/flatpak/maint/?C=M;O=D of that date. Was it intended, unchanged versions get overwritten?
11:58:47 <warlord> It was gjanssens who wrote that upload code. I don't know his intentions.
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12:06:19 <gjanssens> fell: re the full paths, are you referring to the aqbanking source file paths ? I don't think we control those
12:07:12 <gjanssens> As for the f latpakref, it is there now ?
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12:25:08 <fell> gjanssens, yes, but in the windows builds
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12:30:48 <fell> In Flatpak they are of the form: * 18:29:34 ERROR <aqbanking> provider_user.c: 110: Error creating user for backend [none], ignoring
12:36:00 <fell> So in Flatpak we use the Filename, in Windows the full path of the reporting file.
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14:19:39 <gjanssens> fell: I don't think we explicitly control that. Perhaps there's an option on the Mingw compiler that is set differently by default between Windows and linux ? Or it may have to do with a different binary format (linux is ELF, I *think* Windows/Mingw64 is DWARF). These may have different specifications.
14:28:07 <CDB-PHONE_> [11:19] (@fell) Also in DE "cost based" is more common than US-GAAP's "fair value". Perhaps Frakturfreak can tell you more details.
14:28:18 <CDB-PHONE_> cost basis and fair value are separate concepts
14:28:55 <CDB-PHONE_> cost basis is, essentially, your effective total purchase costs
14:29:06 <CDB-PHONE_> fair value is the value if liquidated today
14:29:45 <fell> To be specific in DE we have several different strong "low-value" principles - depending on the type of asset.
14:30:03 <CDB-PHONE_> Hmm
14:30:21 <fell> And low-value implies cost-based
14:30:34 <CDB-PHONE_> for IFRS there's 1 primary definition of cost basis
14:31:39 <CDB-PHONE_> for stocks, the cost basis is in simple terms all cash paid to acquire the stocks. the actual price per share plus any commissions and fees paid
14:33:01 <CDB-PHONE_> the report that Chris has been writing is a report to calculate the cost basis of stocks, using the average cost method of calculation
14:33:13 <CDB-PHONE_> as opposed to a FIFO method
14:33:54 <CDB-PHONE_> the output of the report would be an input into the stock transaction tool, if you were to use the tool to enter a sales transaction
14:35:16 <CDB-PHONE_> the sales transaction required minimum inputs are the cost basis, the total net cash received in hand, and any fees paid
14:36:51 <CDB-PHONE_> example, if you paid $50 for the stock which sold for $100, and you paid $10 in commissions for net cash in hand of $90 the inputs would be a) $50 cost basis, b) $90 cash in hand received, c) $10 fees paid
14:36:58 <fell> So the difference is for the assumed base for sells, right?
14:37:51 <CDB-PHONE_> right, different jurisdictions and countries have different rules for computing the cost basis at time of sale
14:38:01 <CDB-PHONE_> USA uses a FIFO method
14:38:23 <CDB-PHONE_> IFRS uses average cost (for stocks at least)
14:38:43 <CDB-PHONE_> USA for tax* uses FIFO
14:39:09 <CDB-PHONE_> US GAAP is substantially the same as IFRS last I checked
14:39:28 <fell> The old german rule was HiFo, new parts are also FiFo.
14:39:41 <CDB-PHONE_> what's hifo?
14:40:04 <fell> Highest in, furst out.
14:40:54 <CDB-PHONE_> highest in... I can't visualize how that would work. I guess if you keep buying increasingly expensive stock, you'll never sell the oldest, lowest cost stuff
14:41:02 <CDB-PHONE_> so it keeps the taxable gain low
14:43:27 <fell> The rules were developed after world economic crisis to protect creditors, while the US rules protect shareholders.
14:43:40 <CDB-PHONE_> for a rising stock price, HIFO approximates LIFO
14:43:50 <CDB-PHONE_> for a falling stock, it approximates FIFO
14:44:10 <fell> right
14:46:20 <CDB-PHONE_> this is why I nixed the idea from Chris to automatically calculate a suggested cost basis value on the stock transaction tool
14:46:28 <CDB-PHONE_> too many different cost basis systems
14:47:05 <CDB-PHONE_> anything not average cost method... needs to use lot viewers
14:47:59 <CDB-PHONE_> in Canada, banks are not legally required to "officially" tell you the cost basis of any sales you make
14:48:17 <CDB-PHONE_> instead, they are required to tell you it is your responsibility to calculate cost basis
14:50:26 <fell> Because of Withholding tax they have to do it here, but I doubt most people understand their calculations.
14:53:12 <fell> Can you write down your findings in a wiki page?
14:54:00 <fell> (Ideally we should later also add them to the docs)
14:54:23 <CDB-PHONE_> I have lots of knowledge... just not the time to commit to writing anything if it can't be done from a phone
14:54:38 <CDB-PHONE_> I feel like I work 10 hours a day, 6 days a week
14:54:54 <CDB-PHONE_> before COVID that was already true, and it's now doubly so
14:55:26 <CDB-PHONE_> I'm chatting here as I'm making tea and ironing shirts while listening to a work webcast
14:55:34 <frakturfreak> fell: Actually there are also some nuiances like commercial law differing from tax law (non permament impairment)
14:55:59 <jralls> fell, I don't think our wiki, never mind our docs, should include tax advice.
14:56:39 <frakturfreak> also it heavily depends on the tax code and country.
14:57:34 <jralls> And frankly I don't think GnuCash should be implementing it either. Even in the unlikely case that chris manages to get it right, tax laws and regs change often and any code we have would bitrot very quickly.
15:00:27 <fell> No tax advice, but there had been several misunderstandings based on unclear terminology.
15:00:40 <CDB-PHONE_> definitions are what you are looking for I think
15:01:09 <fell> Right, definitions and relations between them.
15:02:29 <CDB-PHONE_> I can cook something up in the next month, or if someone has written something from my comments, I'm happy to go attempt and edit it from my phone
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15:10:16 <fell> I think that would also help to discuss Chris' PRs.
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18:04:15 <chris> .
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18:15:17 <chris> agree tax law shouldn't be codified into gnucash
18:16:04 <chris> at the very best, the ACB report will be used to obtain an exact amount for 'average price paid for stock, considering for fees'
18:16:36 <chris> at the very best (bis), a FIFO/LIFO report could be created too --
18:18:03 <chris> it should handle stock-split, shorting etc
18:18:42 <chris> and from my understanding the capgains recorded for each sell *should* match the capgains calculated via fifo/lifo/acb methods
18:20:24 <chris> hence my soft suggestion to suggest capgains if we know the user is using ACB/FIFO/LIFO -- it would require coding the whole acb-tool or fifo/lifo report into C
18:21:03 <chris> ^ this is not tax report... simply a tool to ensure the capgain recorded is accurate
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18:21:32 <chris> the difficulty is the exact capgain formula will need to consider local tax methods
18:21:49 <chris> (eg how to account for fees etc)
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19:54:16 <jralls> chris, the catch is that ACB is a creature of Canadian tax law.
19:59:03 <jralls> That aside, there is a book-keeping need to account for capital/trading gains and losses so that money doesn't magically appear or disappear from a book because of commodity conversions. That's what the bug was supposed to be about, but you and CDB-PHONE have gone down a portfolio performance rabbit hole.
20:06:13 <CDB-PHONE_> the current template is better named average cost tool
20:06:56 <CDB-PHONE_> does not need to be, and should be renamed from, ACB
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20:38:34 <CDB-PHONE_> the other benefit of this rabbit hole though, is that the tool will ensure that the eventual currency support will be utilized correctly on stock accounts and not cause its own issues
20:52:45 <jralls> CDB-PHONE_ What eventual currency support would that be? Do you mean the eventual possible change to transaction currency is always the root currency?
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21:42:26 <CDB-PHONE_> yes
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