2020-11-14 GnuCash IRC logs
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00:13:19 <Robert847> OK, I ran fsck, Ubuntu rebooted, and now I need to see if anything important is missing
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00:44:18 <Robert847> I lost November 12 stock prices
00:52:31 <Robert847> Luckily, I am concurrently running that instance of GnuCash 2.6.19 beside GnuCash 3.8 on another computer, so any loss is recoverable if needed.
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04:12:26 <chris> CDB-PHONE https://imgur.com/l4MudZz.png
04:16:16 <chris> it'll create well-crafted stock txns but can't edit old ones.
04:16:43 <chris> if jralls is happy we could merge this feature hidden behind an --extras parameter
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04:59:13 <chris> Hi gjanssens! See log - thinking of merging stock-editor behind --extras for beta testing
05:08:13 <gjanssens> chris: I see no issue in that
05:08:46 <gjanssens> Assuming there's no interference with other code ?
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05:11:22 <chris> not at all
05:13:48 <chris> the idea may conflict with the internal tagging of capgains splits
05:14:08 <chris> but certainly no dataloss can occur
05:16:56 * gjanssens has no experience at all with stock transactions, so there's not much he can say about this.
05:17:21 <gjanssens> A conflict does raise concerns in general though
05:17:40 <chris> it's all from 797796 for light reading
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05:19:57 <chris> ireally wonder if/how this conflict is genuine. stock capgains must be input manually, and the built-in cap-gains.c seems to be about auto-cap-gain splits
05:21:57 <gjanssens> I'll kindly pass on this one...
05:22:50 <chris> lo
05:22:52 <chris> lol
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06:21:54 <chris> CDB-Man_ https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/pull/818 if you wish to comment. IMHO this could be merged anytime soon.
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06:27:53 <chris> ideally we wouldn't need to merge yet and CDB-man would install from flatpak
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09:57:31 <chris> warlord: what's the story behind sixtp
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10:35:16 <warlord> chris, huh? the car rental company?
10:36:11 <chris> lol libgnucash/backend/xml/sixtp.cpp
10:36:34 <chris> obv before your time
10:36:37 <warlord> Oh, it's a wrapper around libxml's sixtp interface.
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11:08:40 <CDB-PHONE> @tell Chris [06:21] (@chris) CDB-Man_ https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/pull/818 if you wish to comment. IMHO this could be merged anytime soon. <-- I wish to comment yes, just don't have time to comment this weekend at least
11:08:40 <gncbot> CDB-PHONE: Error: "06:21" is not a valid command.
11:09:11 <CDB-PHONE> [11:08] (+CDB-PHONE) @tell Chris CDB-Man_ https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/pull/818 if you wish to comment. IMHO this could be merged anytime soon. <-- I wish to comment yes, just don't have time to comment this weekend at least
11:09:20 <CDB-PHONE> ... oops
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11:09:33 <CDB-PHONE> @tell Chris CDB-Man_ https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/pull/818 if you wish to comment. IMHO this could be merged anytime soon. <-- I wish to comment yes, just don't have time to comment this weekend at least
11:09:33 <gncbot> CDB-PHONE: The operation succeeded.
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11:26:03 <chris> gjanssens: you may opine on usability for stock txns - if they're crafted via dialog, then they could be edited via dialog but I'd only allow it if they're locked from editing and have special TXN-TYPE-STOCK
11:27:24 <chris> CDB-PHONE: ok np. The branch could be merged which would create win32 builds for testing. If you had time for flatpak then you could get my beta builds.
11:33:01 <gjanssens> chris: you mentioned earlier of a possible conflict with manually crafted transactions. What is different about those that your dialog can't handle ?
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11:47:41 <chris> gjanssens: I don't anticipate conflict.
11:48:12 <chris> dialog-stock-edit.c serves only to assist create well-crafted stock - this includes dividends/capgains/fees etc.
11:48:45 <chris> the conflict lies within my approach to *store* the stock's associated dividend/capgains/fees accounts -- if we don't store then user has to select these acounts every time.
11:48:52 <chris> ...
11:49:14 <chris> apparently cap-gains.c serves to recalculate a priced-account split capgains
11:49:26 <chris> it does so via tagging the capgains split somehow.
11:49:53 <chris> So: I don't plan to tag splits yet - I plan to tag STOCK acct.
11:50:19 <chris> The question is whether there's conflict at all -- from my cursory reading of cap-gains.c there's none
11:50:32 <chris> The next issue is:
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11:50:43 <chris> how do we edit manually crafted stock txns with my dialog?
11:51:09 <chris> answer: not easy! manually created txns have no safeguards on accounts, amounts, values, etc
11:51:53 <chris> it's nigh-impossible to have comprehensive heuristics which can classify a manually-created txn into a classification: "buy" "sell with capgains" "dividends" etc
11:53:49 <chris> a manually created txn may have the fees split in an unsuitable currency, e.g. Asset:USDBroker:MSFT but has expense as Expense:EUR:BrokerFees
11:54:14 <chris> a crafted txn will forbid using a EUR fees account when STOCK's parent is USD
11:55:56 <chris> the dialog is designed for the retail end-user investor - I do not anticipate CDB-Man_ has designed his spreadsheets for the mutual fund manager
11:56:05 <CDB-PHONE> correct
11:56:12 <chris> so, it'll be limited in what it can do.
11:56:32 <CDB-PHONE> and hey, my phone successfully got highlighted there! \o/
11:56:40 <chris> woo
11:57:06 <CDB-PHONE> the spreadsheet is only for retail investor cost basis using the weighted average unit
11:57:29 <CDB-PHONE> granted a find manager probably COULD use it for their "routine" transactions
11:58:16 <CDB-PHONE> the spreadsheet can handle people that flip options (it's no different than regular stocks), but it cannot handle option exercises/assignments
11:58:57 <CDB-PHONE> I would also comment that I would not use stock accounts for options, there's no benefit since finance quote can't pull option prices anyways
11:59:28 <CDB-PHONE> the options trader is not a "regular' person, so no need to create anything tailored to their needs
11:59:41 <chris> ok gtg sleep now
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12:14:51 <gjanssens> chris: I'm fine with it being limited. And at the same time history has shown that requests for more features will follow quickly...
12:15:38 <fell> CDB-PHONE, chris: One Example: my currency is EUR, I ask my traditional european bank to buy IBM shares for me. They give the order to a New York based broker, which buys the shares for USD and their fees in USD.
12:15:49 <gjanssens> The possible 'incompatibilities' you mention may be worth giving some more thought.
12:17:20 <fell> In the next step my bank buys USD to pay them and calculates their fees in EUR.
12:18:39 <fell> So finally for my USD noted stocks I have fees in USD and EUR.
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12:22:14 <fell> From the tax law both fees are cost in this year, but for my personal calculation they are part of the investment. But the personal is less important as it can be done in a spreadsheet.
12:28:17 <CDB-PHONE> for ease of operation, I would suggest we simply record the EUR fee as it's own transaction entry rather than introduce a third currency in an already complicated transaction split setup -- fell Chris
12:29:02 <CDB-PHONE> Dr IBM USD, Cr cash EUR
12:30:05 <CDB-PHONE> Chris just needs to pickup this in the report, and it should be flagged fee so that it gets accumulated as a capitalized fee if capitalization is enabled
12:40:49 <fell> About additional flags for links, there started also a discussion with https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=797836#c12, but is mostly in https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/pull/762. We should avoid to implement different technics.
12:54:03 <jralls> chris, I haven't even looked at what you have as a code review except for the bitfield of strings, but unless you've redone that part of the design it's definitely not ready for merging.
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13:00:10 <jralls> Since I have a pretty big stock-trading history in my book I'll also do some compatibility testing.
13:00:24 <jralls> But not this weekend, I won't have time.
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16:45:48 <chris> fell: is your USD-priced shares under Asset:EURBank:USDshares?
16:46:08 <chris> fell: how do you record Capgains/Dividends/Fees? in EUR or USD?
16:46:19 <chris> ditto Sales
16:47:32 <chris> jralls: this feature is for stock data entry rather than for stock data editing
16:47:49 <chris> jralls: for analysis etc you'll want acb-tool.scm
16:49:49 <chris> fell: if all your USD share activity is in USD first and foremost, and converted to EUR by your bank, then you'd set the hierarchy as Asset:USDProxy:USDShares and record all Income:USDDividends, Income:USDCapgains, Expense:USDfees in USD IIUC CDB-Man_
16:51:00 <CDB-PHONE> Chris, he's saying that to buy a USD share, he pays fees charged in both USD and EUR
16:51:09 <chris> jralls: the only reason to merge now is to create a win32 build for CDB-Man to test
16:51:43 <chris> CDB-Phone: so, two different fees.
16:51:55 <CDB-PHONE> the USD fee is the commission charged by the US broker, and the EUR fee is an extra commission charged by the German bank
16:52:32 <CDB-PHONE> if anything, enter all the USD parts using the stock tool, then separately in another transaction entry the EUR fee as Dr IBM, Cr cash EUR
16:53:21 <chris> ^ or edit the transaction to add the extra fee
16:54:10 <CDB-PHONE> bad idea
16:54:15 <CDB-PHONE> too many currencies
16:54:26 <CDB-PHONE> IBM units + USD + EUR
16:54:30 <CDB-PHONE> 3 way conversion
16:54:56 <CDB-PHONE> won't become a good idea until we get proper currency support to always translate everything into home currency
16:55:53 <CDB-PHONE> but if you're willing to put up with that headache, then yes that's possible, manual edit the transaction to add the EUR fee
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17:51:07 <jralls> CDB-PHONE wrote "won't become a good idea until we get proper currency support to always translate everything into home currency"::: Which was the original problem documented by https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=797796. This entry tool is a side-track.
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17:54:26 <jralls> chris, I understand that PR818 is only about entering new transactions. But to avoid a snowstorm of bugs those transactions should work with lot scrubbing and ideally with the APR.
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19:20:36 <chris> ok. I'll await your review. CDB-Thing is busy anyway.
19:21:06 <CDB-PHONE> 😊
19:21:09 <CDB-PHONE> :-)
19:26:28 <chris> I wonder how the home-currency thing will work with auto-capgains tracking if daily x rates are not available.
19:27:02 <chris> I also wonder if CDB will be able to solve the double-capgains tracing with foreign stocks.
19:27:25 * chris steps back!
19:31:09 <jralls> chris, good question. My guess is that it doesn't work well regardless of the availability of rates, but I don't remember ever trying.
19:31:47 <jralls> CDB-PHONE have you ever tried lot scrubbing to compute cap gains?
19:40:26 <CDB-PHONE> never ventured into testing lots
19:40:38 <CDB-PHONE> [19:27] (@chris) I also wonder if CDB will be able to solve the double-capgains tracing with foreign stocks.
19:40:55 <CDB-PHONE> not an issue, when everything is in home currency, the FX portion is built in
19:41:07 <CDB-PHONE> which is what's also required for most tax justifications
19:41:13 <CDB-PHONE> jurisdictions*
19:41:30 <CDB-PHONE> to compute the gain exclusively in home currency, and therefore including FX gain
19:42:17 <CDB-PHONE> all cost basis is accumulated in home currency using the rate(s) on the purchase date(s)
19:45:43 <chris> This would mean the home currency cannot *ever* change in a book.
19:47:16 <chris> e.g. if I stay in UK for 10 years, buy some stock, then move to FR for more years, buy some more stock. I'll keep the UK and FR books separate, tracking their values and capgains etc in their home currencies (GBP and EUR).
19:58:41 <chris> jralls: maybe there has to be an API for 'official-fx-rate' which is populated from ECB etc and *not* from split amount/value
20:00:24 <jralls> chris, I suppose that would be adjunct to the pricedb. The split amount/value prices are necessary for trial balance and for calculating unrealized gains.
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20:02:45 <jralls> ECB and various FX rates are at best averages, often averages of the wrong thing (as in of 90-day futures). Actual transactions need to be priced at the actual rate/price for that transaction, but that gets complicated when more than one currency is involved--as you've surely learned from the long discussion on 797796/
20:05:35 <CDB-PHONE> [19:45] (@chris) This would mean the home currency cannot *ever* change in a book.
20:06:10 <CDB-PHONE> in principle yes, GAAP contemplates a "change in functional currency" as a "major change in accounting policy"
20:06:11 <jralls> chris, yes, making "home" currency immutable would be necessary. Changing the transaction currency to always be the home currency is another deep architectural change. I think it's the right thing to do but it will have to be introduced carefully and at a major release with lots of user preparation.
20:06:44 <CDB-PHONE> you would probably close your books are start a new one if you need to change currency
20:07:37 <jralls> CDB-PHONE I think for GnuCash's purposes the policy would be that one would close out the old book and start a new one with the old book's ending balances being opening balances in the new book with the new home currency.
20:07:37 <CDB-PHONE> a transition tool would be suggested, one that allows you to export your entire account tree, with a home currency change
20:07:51 <CDB-PHONE> agreed
20:08:07 <CDB-PHONE> aligns with what I said above
20:08:36 <CDB-PHONE> fortunately for GAAP, corporations generally don't get up and move all the time like humans do
20:10:01 <jralls> It does. Unfortunately for GnuCash it's for natural persons rather than corporate ones.
20:12:23 <jralls> An export-to-new-currency tool would be tricky: ISTM Equity should be in the home currency and automagically converting it so that the new book balances won't be easy.
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20:44:19 <CDB-PHONE> right, equity in home currency for certain
20:44:38 <CDB-PHONE> the equity section is where a lot of FX magic happens
20:45:19 <CDB-PHONE> "cumulative translation adjustment" is a special purpose equity line item that exists in IFRS and USA GAAP
20:46:04 <CDB-PHONE> I have 1 client I deal with that has this issue, and every year it causes me grief, this account
20:46:47 <CDB-PHONE> if everything is always recorded in home currency though at the per transaction level, it shouldn't be an issue
20:47:24 <CDB-PHONE> you would have a USD equity account where the units are USD, but the value is always expressed in CAD for example
20:49:15 <CDB-PHONE> effectively transaction currency always CAD, and every account in the register is a stock type account and they are all having a CAD parent
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22:44:27 <chris> jralls CDB-PHONE: in your plans Id hope we can account for non-stock priceditems eg a house, an antique, and some BTC...
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