2020-11-08 GnuCash IRC logs
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00:40:54 <fell> A Summer/Wintertime bug?
00:42:55 <warlord> unlikely. that would have been an issue *last* weekend.
00:43:11 <warlord> And.. what are YOU doing up at 6:40am?
00:45:08 <fell> Drinking my 2. coffee - currently on the early wake. ;-)
00:47:14 <warlord> I am still awake after Biden's win... Watching SNL ...
00:47:38 <fell> Congrats!
00:49:10 <warlord> Thanks.
00:49:24 <warlord> So happy to finally (again) have a president that can actually be presidential.
00:49:31 <warlord> It's been a long 4 years..
00:50:01 <warlord> Only 73 more days of him
00:53:34 <fell> I heard from a producer, this year german Christmas cookies are very expensive in the US.
01:31:53 <warlord> not being Christian, that doesn't really affect me.
01:32:04 <warlord> Also, I plan to be in Aruba during Christmas :)
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09:36:35 <chris> the travis->github actions document is very well written. benefits of having paid staff to write docs
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10:55:05 <CDB-PHONE> [00:49] (@warlord) So happy to finally (again) have a president that can actually be presidential. <-- ditto for us up here in Canada
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11:27:06 <marneu56> Hallo in die Runde! ist hier Deutsch Umgangssprache?
11:27:06 <marneu56> Hi arround! is this an english spoken Community?
11:29:10 <marneu56> Is somebody able to help in a crash on Ubuntu 20.4 using GC 3.8 Build ID: 3.8b+(2019-12-29)
11:32:46 <warlord> CDB-PHONE, :)
11:33:10 <warlord> marneu56, generally english, although we do have a couple german speakers
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11:37:38 <marneu56> Thanks warlord
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11:40:28 <marneu56> Crash occurs when adding a new entry in books if the description is an already used entry before.
11:43:03 <warlord> Well, 3.11 was the most recent 3.x release, and there is a 4.2 out as well. try upgrading?
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11:46:08 <marneu56> is unfortunately not within ubuntu standard repos
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12:44:21 <marneu56> warlord, prob persists in flatpak 4.2
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12:51:54 <marneu56> warlord, a possible workaround ist to put records in CSV an import into account. After importing all changes can be done as usual.
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16:28:04 <CDB-Work> jralls: I dont see any inconsistency between GAAP, myself, or the IRS with regards to commissions paid at time of sale
16:29:37 <CDB-Work> what i am trying to point out though is that semantically, the IRS is actually saying that the commissions at sale are _expensed_ in the general sense (as in they are not accumulated in the cost basis, which would be _capitalized_) -- not expensed as a discrete line item, but expensed in that it is not capitalized (as my example in comment 110 illu
16:29:37 <CDB-Work> strates what a capitalization of sales commissions would look like)
16:30:08 <jralls> CDB-Work, OK. The issue I see is your claim that the sale costs are applied as a basis increase to *all* shares held. That's materially different from the IRS guidance to reduce the proceeds.
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16:30:56 <CDB-Work> jralls: no, perhaps poor word choice from me, but what I am pointing out is that when you said "but in the US both are capitalized" in comment 165, it's you that is inadvertantly claimin the example i describe in comment 110
16:31:05 <CDB-Work> due to the nuance of the semantics
16:31:11 <jralls> Ah, I see where you're going.
16:31:28 <CDB-Work> comment 166 of mine in reply to you, was to point this out
16:32:08 <CDB-Work> "What you're describing is proceeds are reported net of commissions, which is what my template also follows." <-- as in you in comment 165 is consistent with me and GAAP and the IRS, but you used the wrong semantic term when you said "capitalized" for sales commissions
16:32:12 <jralls> I'm looking at it from the tax viewpoint, where "expensed" means "deducted as an investment expense".
16:32:30 <CDB-Work> yeah, you are thinking itemized deductions or other similar gross deductions
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16:33:11 <CDB-Work> I am saying the word "expensed" as in "not capitalized", i.e. using expensed in the general sense, rather than the IRS "false" equivalency of "expensed" = "deduction"
16:33:21 <jralls> Right. As far as the tax man is concerned the commissions and fees aren't expenses, they're a reduction in income.
16:33:44 <CDB-Work> to be perfectly clear, I would only ever use the word "(itemized/specific) deduction" if I were to ever describe it in the IRS sense
16:34:21 <CDB-Work> indeed, the art of form of "reduction in income" =/= an allowable deduction is an IRS construct, gets to the same result, but a "display issue" as I would call it
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16:35:04 <CDB-Work> they aren't expenses, but they aren't capitalized either. they are reported net against the gross proceeds, which is reflecting it as an expense in the general sense, but not the IRS usage as a separate, specific deduction
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16:35:25 <CDB-Work> they aren't expenses +in the IRS sense of the term, **
16:36:01 <CDB-Work> side note: we lost the link to the public logs in the channel topic
16:36:40 <jralls> Oh, yeah, fell took it out when warlord's power was out.
16:37:56 *** jralls changes topic to "Free GPL Personal and Small Business Accounting || Please don't ask to ask, just ask and wait! (Possibly a few hours!!) || publicly-logged channel: https://code.gnucash.org/logs || latest stable: 4.2 || www.gnucash.org || wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/"
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17:42:09 <CDB-Work> jralls: would there be "anarchy" if we did something like remove Wm from a cc list? and/or is it possible simply to block him from being added to CC lists in general, as that would mean he no longer gets push updates? every time i hit send, the pack of my mind says that he's getting a push notification and I'm hoping to only hear silence in return
17:42:52 <chris> Water off duck's back :)
17:44:19 <jralls> CDB-Work: I don't know if he'd get a notification if you were to remove him from CC. I don't think that there's a way to set his account to not get added to CC when he comments.
17:46:03 <CDB-Work> chris: i replied (twice now) to the ticket, adding a new problem, then solving it myself, then adding another one again... so it comes back to we need to use flags for fees
17:47:58 <CDB-Work> jralls: well that's disappointing to hear. and I certainly don't want to go test that theory on a live ticket
17:48:13 <chris> being inconsistent in flag vs account is not ideal but is the best method available
17:49:01 <CDB-Work> the mike alexander adv portfolio exclusively looked for EXP accounts if i remember right.... i attempted to decipher the scheme myself a few years back
17:49:28 <CDB-Work> I was triggered to look when my capitalized expenses were not being picked up in his cost basis
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17:50:11 <CDB-Work> hmm, we could test the CC removal thning by having one of you remove me from cc, and then i'll go add myself back after seeing if there was an email or not
17:50:23 <CDB-Work> or it might be a user setting, so it renders it a meaningless test
17:50:47 <CDB-Work> ... yep it's a user setting
17:51:56 <jralls> There is a button to disable bug mail on the user settings in admin but I think that he can easily put it back. It looks like *by default* only the reporter (you in this case) gets mail when the CC field changes, but that's also configurable by the user.
17:52:21 <chris> jralls CDB-Work: if we can decide on a general stock template, then it's IMV a nice idea to have a UI to add a transaction to stock acct. I may try it myself.
17:52:37 <CDB-Work> https://i.ibb.co/rZkxsRb/image.png preference setting
17:53:03 <chris> I find the stock acct register UI very confusing
17:53:08 <jralls> Oh, missed that one.
17:53:40 <CDB-Work> looks like it's a user setting, so yes, meaningless as he can easily re-enable it (if he notices)
17:54:14 <chris> CDB-Work: remember warlord owns the database, and has power to do as he likes with the data :)
17:54:57 <CDB-Work> chris: I THINK the actual splits required in a transaction for a purchase or a sale are the same for both average cost and FIFO, so that can work. the methods for calculating cost basis to not affect how they are (ought to be) recorded from a transaction split basis
17:55:45 <CDB-Work> and of course, FIFO would need a very different CG report than the one you are building now for average cost. average cost being more IFRS compliant though naturally makes this one the higher priority target (and hence all this work that's going into ti)
17:56:50 <CDB-Work> chris: well there's fine line between "applying controls" to a troublesome user, vs just may as well eliminating them altogether... and it looks like bugzilla has limited controls
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20:12:21 <chris> CDB-Work: what's the use case for needing multiple Asset:Proceeds, Inc:Capgain, Inc:Dividends, Exp:Fees accounts for 1 Stock acct?
20:12:43 <chris> IMHO the Stock-acct could have metadata describing its relationships
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21:04:36 <CDB-PHONE> on a per stock account basis, it ought only to report to 1 each of capital gain, fees, and dividends yes
21:04:56 <CDB-PHONE> ah I see what you're getting at
21:05:28 <CDB-PHONE> there's multiple of those accounts across the entire portfolio, but only 1 ought be applicable to each individual stock account
21:08:45 <chris> it would make sense for ACB-tool to limit to 1 Stock acct
21:09:17 <chris> hence any stock assistant (eg stock split) will use the metadata
21:09:47 <chris> we can have buy-assistant, sell-assistant, dividend, return capital, etc
21:12:26 <chris> Next Qu: for a generic SELL txn, is there a formula we can use to calculate the Inc:Capgains amount, assuming we know we're using ACB? or FIFO/LIFO?
21:21:34 <chris> FIFO/LIFO would need some lot traversal annoyance, but acb should have a ready-to-use formula somewhere
21:57:37 <CDB-Work> well even acb needs to traverse
21:57:52 <CDB-Work> since you need to cumulate all previous purchases and sales
21:58:02 <CDB-Work> there isn't a formula, just a simpler traversal
21:58:45 <CDB-Work> i've yet to come up with a method for calculating cost basis using the average method.... that's simpler than that excel spreadsheet
22:05:58 <chris> Am referring to the SELL txn CAPG split. There's no formula?
22:10:18 <CDB-Work> well the CAPG is by definition proceeds - cost basis, so to have a formula for the division, you need a formula for its components
22:10:28 <CDB-Work> which means a formula for the cost basis
22:10:52 <CDB-Work> CASH = basis (SELL SPY) + gain/loss (CAPG)
22:11:16 <CDB-Work> CASH is known, CAPG is calculated as a reminder of CASH - SELL
22:11:25 <CDB-Work> and SELL is known via the traversing
22:16:13 <CDB-Work> i would effectively run the report to find out my current basis
22:16:20 <CDB-Work> before entering the next sell
22:19:52 <chris> Ok. Lots of work. So, no formula should be offered :)
22:22:08 <CDB-Work> indeed; the formula is run the report prior to recording your sale!
22:22:33 <CDB-Work> it's why i maintain my ENTIRE portfolio in excel still
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23:54:37 <CDB-Work> chris: "NC" in your attached template is actually ND for notional distribution?
23:58:36 <CDB-Work> did you need help filling in the truth table for NC ROC split? NC should have 1's in value and dividend. ROC in value and cash, and stock split in units only