2020-11-03 GnuCash IRC logs
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02:55:17 <gjanssens> chris, jralls, warlord: I noticed the same confusing message from travis-ci. And I also wondered if this applies equally to travis-ci.org
02:55:45 <gjanssens> When considering alternatives, like chris I immediately thought of gitlab.
02:56:00 <gjanssens> It apparently comes with ci built-in
02:56:52 <gjanssens> We could consider selfhosting it like other big projects do (gnome, kde, ...) or we could go with the free OSS tier of gitlab.com.
02:57:56 <gjanssens> OTOH, github is currently the biggest social code network by a large margin, so migrating to gitlab may impact network effect benefits.
02:58:42 <gjanssens> That is, many potential contributors probably already have a github account, which makes forking gnucash for a first, one-off PR very low barrier.
02:59:00 <gjanssens> Asking users to do the same on a self-hosted gitlab would take much more effort.
02:59:24 * gjanssens wishes gitlab implemented a federation mechanism
02:59:48 <gjanssens> That way, independent gitlab implementations could cross-authenticate
03:00:56 <gjanssens> Of course, other than fully migrating away from github we can also look for other CI integrations. I have seen appveyor (used by flathub), but don't know of the capabilities.
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03:01:56 <gjanssens> Or we could also just start by asking Travis for clarification wrt to the gnucash repos. Perhaps that would solve our current worry already
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08:51:15 <warlord> @op
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09:43:31 <neku> fell, frakturfreak ich hab jetzt mal einige Standard-Buchungsstätze notiert, die ihr in das Wiki einbinden könnt. https://mibpaste.com/YYdA5e
09:44:10 <neku> Wäre nett wenn ihr die DInge, die mir noch unbekannt sind genauer schildern könntet
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09:57:00 <neku> fell, ich habe ein pastebin geschickt
09:57:07 <neku> https://mibpaste.com/YYdA5e
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10:11:45 <chris> jralls: any objections to merging #805? it LGTM
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12:09:01 <jralls> gjanssens Setting up gitlab doesn't necessarily mean dropping github.
12:09:44 <gjanssens> jralls: indeed we could combine both as we currently do with code and github.
12:11:02 <gjanssens> I have been curious to gitlab ever since gnome decided to switch to it.
12:12:34 <jralls> I've been using gitlab ever since gnome switched. It's actually pretty similar to github in a lot of ways on the frontend. I've no idea about the backend, especially setting up the CI part.
12:13:10 <jralls> And after 2+ years I still think that BZ is a much better bug tracker.
12:14:13 <gjanssens> I can see why. My main argument against it these days is its lack of integration with platforms such as github or gitlab
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12:15:32 * gjanssens has to reboot - his mouse has died...
12:15:37 <gjanssens> See you in a bit
12:15:44 <jralls> I haven't dug into it yet but ISTM if CI is all we want a standalone CI server is probably a better path than gitlab. And BTW gitlab's issue tracking integration is not great.
12:15:46 <jralls> OK.
12:16:07 <warlord> Would it make sense to set up e.g. a travis VM?
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12:16:22 <warlord> (or a couple)
12:16:37 <jralls> Is the travis SW Free?
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12:17:19 <warlord> that is a good question
12:17:32 <jralls> If so and it's not too hard to set up then that would be a pretty quick fix.
12:18:15 <warlord> From the wikipedia page: The source is technically free software and available piecemeal on GitHub under permissive licenses. The company notes, however, that the large number of tasks that a user needs to monitor and perform can make it difficult for some users to successfully integrate the Enterprise version with their own infrastructure.[5]
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12:19:28 <jralls> We wouldn't need the enterprise version but even so it sounds like it might be too much work. Looks like Jenkins is the more common Free solution.
12:20:38 <warlord> ... which is certainly widely available on fedora.
12:21:25 <jralls> Even better.
12:21:58 <warlord> What I DON'T know is whether we can use one VM for Jenkins or if we need multiple VMs.
12:22:28 <warlord> And we would probably need a Win32 Jenkins builder, certainly... Dunno how we'd handle a Mac.
12:24:07 <jralls> We don't do mac CI now, though it would surely be nice to have. Interestingly one of the reasons that Travis gave for pushing FOSS to pay was the "special care and feeding of macOS builds".
12:25:10 * gjanssens has heard of jenkins but doesn't know it in any detail
12:25:19 <jralls> You've been threatening to set up a mac for nightlies for years. OTOH I'd think Jenkins could be coerced to send jobs to me.
12:25:45 <jralls> gjanssens, join the club! We're all in for a learning experience.
12:25:54 <gjanssens> It appears to be a java application
12:26:18 <gjanssens> And from what I see it integrates with lots of external services in one way or another via plugins.
12:26:38 <gjanssens> There's a few plugins related to github, though I have no idea they do what travis-ci currently does
12:27:02 <gjanssens> And there's plugins to interface with docker (which is how we currently run our tests on travis), so that may be helpful
12:27:06 <jralls> warlord does (or did) java in his day job...
12:27:22 <gjanssens> That that's a good start :)
12:28:20 <jralls> Not that we'd necessarily need to do any coding on it ourselves. It seems to have plenty of knobs and sliders, plus all of those plugins.
12:29:19 <jralls> I found a comparison with travis at https://www.guru99.com/jenkins-vs-travis.html. It says it's compatible with libvirt. Is that the same as ovirt?
12:29:50 <warlord> ovirt is built on top of libvirt.
12:31:37 <gjanssens> By the way, I still think we should clear this up with travis first. Reading their billing page seems to suggest there's no problem for us (unless we want to include mac builds)
12:31:40 <gjanssens> https://docs.travis-ci.com/user/billing-overview/
12:32:22 <gjanssens> There are two plans: a concurrency based plan (free for all up to 5 concurrent jobs) and a usage based plan in which you have to buy minutes
12:32:31 <jralls> That would seem to be obsolete in light of yesterday's announcements.
12:35:48 <gjanssens> ...and I'm reading it wrongly :(
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12:36:36 <gjanssens> I have now logged in to my account on travis-ci.com and the 1 concurrent plan costs $69/month
12:37:55 <gjanssens> Interestingly, if I log into my account on travis-ci.org, there's no mention of plans there.
12:38:09 <gjanssens> So perhaps it's really a travis-ci.com only thing
12:38:33 <gjanssens> I know a while back there was a push to migrate projects from .org to .com.
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12:39:08 <gjanssens> In hindsight that seems to have been a calculated move...
12:39:27 <jralls> You missed chris's post yesterday where they said travis-ci.org is shutting down on 31 December.
12:39:45 <gjanssens> Oh, I did miss that indeed :(
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12:40:38 <gjanssens> So then it appears even more like a deliberate move to be able to charge more from all users.
12:41:00 <gjanssens> That's what happens when depending on cloud services I suppose
12:41:05 <warlord> Well, right now there is $23k in the tip jar.
12:41:14 <warlord> $23163.74 to be exact
12:41:27 <jralls> Right. Open source projects can beg for credits.
12:42:41 <warlord> https://github.com/jenkinsci/ghprb-plugin
12:42:43 <gjanssens> Indeed I saw that as well.
12:42:51 <warlord> Jenkins / GitHub Pull Request Builder Plugin
12:43:18 <gjanssens> Got to go...
12:43:25 <warlord> Have a good evening, gjanssens
12:43:41 <gjanssens> Thanks!
12:43:50 <jralls> Goodnight!
12:46:36 <jralls> warlord, $23K will pay for a lot of build minutes and continuing to use travis would avoid the occasional outages at your server farm. OTOH Jenkins would give us more flexibility, for example we could convert the nightly windows builds to CI builds.
12:47:27 <warlord> Travis had its own multi-day outage in March of last year. ;)
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12:47:48 <jralls> True, I'd forgotten that.
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12:50:36 <warlord> With $23k I could easily buy 2 more ovirt servers so I never have "server downtime" (only guest-OS downtime).
12:51:12 <warlord> So the only outages would be planned (for OS updates) or acts-of-God (power outages > 2-4 hours, fiber cuts, etc)
12:52:31 <jralls> It's the unplanned ones that seem to bite us in the rear. Don't forget ISP goofiness.
12:53:59 <warlord> Yeah. Well, power outages at this new place are rare (at least according to neighbors). But I can assure you if there is another one "soon" we will absolutely get a generator. I was also considering an LTE backup to protect against fiber cuts.
12:54:47 <warlord> The ovirt server was ~$5k. But I would have to go re-price it if we wanted to augment it.
12:54:51 <jralls> re generator, yeah, I bet you will. 2 days in the dark is no fun at all.
12:55:28 <warlord> Exactly. But if it really is a once-every 6-7 years occurrence, the $8-10k investment has a negative ROI.
12:55:56 <warlord> (at least in terms of actual financial loss, like spoiled food, etc).
12:56:14 <warlord> Certainly lost time & productivity isn't readily calculable.
12:57:21 <jralls> I guess. I got one back in 2002 when California screwed up privatizing the grid. (Remember Enron?) We generally need it only once or twice a year and usually only for a few hours. But we haven't yet had The Big One.
12:58:38 <warlord> Yeah. At the last house we had outages even more frequently than that, which is exactly why we had a generator installed. Here we plumbed for a generator, so installation should be relatively easy if we pull the trigger.
12:59:41 <jralls> Mine's a diesel. Part of the 2002 fiasco was that PG&E was going bankrupt thanks to Enron's shenanigans and there was a risk that the natural gas would be shut off too.
12:59:53 <warlord> Oh. Wow.
13:00:53 <jralls> And of course when The Big One hits the gas will get shut down. It was gas pipes that took out most of SF in 1906 and caused a bunch of fires in 1989.
13:01:04 <warlord> I was looking at possibly getting a 9kW portable (gas) generator..
13:01:20 <jralls> Get diesel, it's safer to store.
13:01:40 <jralls> Although it about doubles the cost of the generator.
13:01:50 <warlord> I always store ~10-15gal gas for my other power tools.
13:02:11 <jralls> That's a lot of lawn-mowing!
13:04:21 <warlord> Actually it's a lot of blowing and pressure washing. But my point is that I don't mind storing some gas (I have 2 5-gal and 1 2.5-gal container... plus a 1gal 2-stroke 50:1)
13:05:02 <jralls> OK.
13:05:04 <warlord> BUt a 9kW for $700 is pretty good, but I would have to figure out how to wire it all up properly.
13:05:32 <warlord> But it's much cheaper than whole-house which is $4500 + install (so $8-10k)
13:12:07 <jralls> Most of the portables just have outlets so you make a double-ended extension cord and plug it into the wall.
13:13:49 <jralls> For a whole-house you need a bus transfer between the meter and the distribution panel.
13:13:52 <warlord> Not sure that it really the best option considering I want to power of specific circuits that live on different panels, but obviously can't power my ACs or other significant users.
13:14:23 <warlord> I know how whole-house goes -- had that at the last place. It's how to deal with a portable and get to the circuits I want to fire up.
13:14:35 <jralls> You probably can power everything with 9KVA. That's probably more amps than you use.
13:14:55 <warlord> Originally I was thinking I would just power up my freezer, kegerator (as a backup fridge), and then somehow get power down to the machine room rack.
13:15:27 <warlord> Nope. It's not. My "max" usage is around 16-20kW,
13:15:35 <warlord> I would have to turn off a bunch of things to run on 9
13:15:54 <jralls> Yow! Do you have a substation in the back yard? ;-)
13:16:06 <warlord> hahaha... nope.
13:16:27 <warlord> But I did use 3999 kWh last month
13:16:35 <warlord> 4633 the month before
13:17:17 <jralls> That's only 6.4KW.
13:17:17 <warlord> I don't have per-circuit data, so can't really see where that power is being consumed.
13:18:41 <jralls> So the hard part for the portable is that it will have a bunch of 20A outlets and you need to connect each one to a separate 20A house circuit to be able to get all 9kw into the house.
13:18:44 <warlord> Sure, but that's the average over 31 days. Obviously it goes up and down. I would need to keep the peak below 9, which means turning off the stuff that is using all that power. Probably ACs and Pool.
13:19:14 <warlord> The one I was looking at had a bunch of 20A, a 30A, and a 50A.
13:19:49 <jralls> Do you have an electric clothes dryer?
13:20:04 <warlord> https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newegg.com%2Fpulsar-g12kbn-12-000w-generators%2Fp%2F0MC-00M0-00004%3Fsdtid%3D14492174%26item%3D9SIA08C88W7564%26nm_mc%3DAFC-RAN-COM%26cm_mmc%3DAFC-RAN-COM%26utm_medium%3Daffiliates%26utm_source%3Dafc-Slickdeals%2520LLC%26AFFID%3D208164%26AFFNAME%3DSlickdeals%2520LLC%26ACRID%3D1%26ASUBID%3D281927ac1d2c11ebaf447a9ca9f050150INT%26ASID%26ranMID%3D44583%26ranEAID%3D208164%26ranSiteID%3Dlw9MynSeamY-KJN7Bn5r_ho
13:20:04 <warlord> bqNAOr8dQLA%26fbclid%3DIwAR0ItaXbjYKylzuzi9Kb9cYWpd8_8NopufNFdJvx3g0GC-_cewm2meZi8eQ&h=AT2T9t4Em2ilaeY9l7eivzxRtPqG6BYfzxoJ89m2-k5K5Au7hj1VgZ9FHUkPvZDczGqmEz0pwB4cu4Aw6y_jFcM4Fxmo4v08QUiLfGdZcyiJBric0OhV_6_EdA&__tn__=-UK-R&c[0]=AT1jzH-afVStJqllyJbh0bWjo_TXuXPWAShJ0CRzGWgDVWs025W8n0OfhK4k02dE5P8HN2po4pivE-M5rH1eA5rhud3Z_oTqUOyuRKahv112hkeBwgFCK8m_RJ2YbPQGPWy7NfLtFcYd9B1wpQtnHq01247R5hhsftc4oxeMdg9bcBj2quzHcwRmMX5AwpAdCR3H7XD7EMiK2YJ6JPVJ4-CQAmQqZTvZm24Q
13:20:07 <warlord> u7rX
13:20:15 <warlord> Oops, that was a bit longer than expected.
13:20:23 <warlord> Yes. And an EV Charger.
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13:20:58 <warlord> Try this link: https://slickdeals.net/f/14492174-pulsar-g12kbn-12-000-9500-watt-dual-fuel-portable-generator-799-99
13:22:00 <warlord> Or this one: https://www.newegg.com/pulsar-g12kbn-12-000w-generators/p/0MC-00M0-00004
13:22:35 <warlord> So 9.5kW, 12kW peak. Still won't quite meet my whole-house needs, but would work in a pinch for most of my usage.
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13:25:39 <jralls> It says 12KW but it really means 12KVA. They're the same only for non-reactive loads like dryers and stoves. Anything with coils or capacitors (think motors) has a power factor, usually around .7 so 12KVA becomes 8400 KW.
13:25:57 <warlord> Ideally, this is what I would want for a whole-house install: https://www.generac.com/all-products/generators/home-backup-generators/guardian-series/24kw-7210-prwview-transfer-switch-wifi-enabled
13:26:22 <jralls> Yeah, generac pretty much owns the whole-house NG business.
13:26:35 <warlord> I had a generac before. It was great.
13:28:19 <jralls> Too bad you didn't get a transfer switch put in when you were remodeling. The transfer switch itself is pretty cheap and the labor would have been low since the electricians were wiring everything anyway.
13:30:57 <jralls> Anyway, the easiest way to get the power into the house would be to get a 50A extension cord made with a dryer plug on one end and whatever the generator's 50A receptacle takes on the other.
13:31:46 <warlord> Actually the easiest would be a 14-50, to plug into my EV ports. However, I would still need to manually disconnect from line service.
13:32:03 <warlord> As for the transfer switch -- the installation was designed to make it easy to install later.
13:32:36 <warlord> the main panels are right where the generator would be -- so I only need about, oh, 6' of wire from the generator to the panel.
13:32:52 <warlord> But I do need 2 transfer switches (one for A, one for B).
13:33:09 <jralls> A and B? You have two meters?
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13:38:20 <Nick_> Question: When you enter a new customer invoice and you upcharge say for a part how do you specify this in gnucash ?
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13:41:23 <warlord> jralls, no, but 400A service off 1 meter, so the A and B 200A sides. So a xfer switch needs to jump in between the meter and the A&B sides, which means 2 200A switches.
13:42:01 <warlord> Nick_, you assign the cost to the customer .. GnuCash keeps track of both prices for the line-item.
13:42:09 <warlord> (or do you not mean by a chargeback?)
13:42:32 <Nick_> no, not a chargeback.
13:43:37 <Nick_> How exactly do I go about doing that though ? If you could break it down a little more I would appreciate it :)
13:47:30 <jralls> warlord, I guess meaning that your SE has two 200A breakers feeding separate distro panels and just bus bars between the meter and those 2 breakers so no way to insert a transfer switch.
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13:49:36 <warlord> Chargeback: vendor bill for the item (when you buy it), charge-back to the customer, and then you invoice the customer for the item (at potentially a different price)
13:50:48 <warlord> jralls, pretty much yes. Or, rather, there are 4 wires that come from the meter to the 2 master switches -- on the other side of the wall (the meter side) I suspect it's a bus.
13:51:18 <Nick_> warlord: ok
13:52:20 <warlord> alternatively, Nick_ , you can buy the item (into Assets), and then "sell" it from Assets. You will need to manually account for the gain/loss
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14:03:43 <jralls> warlord Or you could do a 400A transfer switch and split to the two master breakers from there.
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14:20:37 <warlord> I think 2x 200A TSes are cheaper
14:20:51 <warlord> Especially the Generac automatic transfer switches.
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14:25:55 <fell> I just found https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_continuous_integration_software
14:28:34 <frakturfreak> neku: try again, most of it is wrong
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14:35:37 <warlord> jralls, it's like $700 vs $2600 for a 200A vs 400A, so $1400 for 2x 200A..
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15:13:08 <frakturfreak> neku: https://bpa.st/4HAA
15:13:42 <jralls> warlord, OK.
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21:07:48 <chris> warlord wouldn't it be worth dockerizing code so it could be deployed in the cloud? AFAIU everything inside can be encrypted
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21:15:40 <warlord> chris, I dont see the value in that.
21:15:50 <warlord> especially if it's not *just* code..
21:16:03 <warlord> And moreover, where would it (they) be "deployed"?
21:59:35 <chris> locally of course, to start with
22:21:31 <warlord> There is also an actual cost of running in the cloud. Running in my house, yes, there is a cost (electricity), but it's something I can just handle. If there is an external cost, then it needs to come from somewhere to pay for it.
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