2020-09-22 GnuCash IRC logs
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04:57:54 <andreas^> hello.
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10:05:28 <daniel_j> back in 98 there was a vote to determine the new name for xacc (https://www.gnucash.org/mirrors/www.cs.hmc.edu/~rclark/xacc/merger.html) - a friend and i are interested to know if the results for the voting were ever released and still known today?
10:05:33 <daniel_j> searching found nothing
10:11:19 <daniel_j> also interested generally of when it was taken in as a gnu project
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11:44:05 <jralls> linas, can you answer daniel_j's questions?
11:54:28 <chris> not here !
12:03:35 <daniel_j> https://lists.gnucash.org/logs/2015/02/17.html this log clears up the gnu project question!
12:06:33 <daniel_j> well not entirely, but it satiates my curiosity
12:08:24 <daniel_j> also since found the mailinlist archive that i should have found earlier.. trawling it for the other answers
12:17:04 <raftoral> Hi!
12:17:04 <gncbot> raftoral: Sent 3 days, 8 hours, and 56 minutes ago: <chris> trial balance will always show imbalance unless you use average-cost IIUC jralls may be able to explain why
12:17:05 <gncbot> raftoral: Sent 3 days, 8 hours, and 54 minutes ago: <chris> IIUC the imbalance in trial-balance is the unrealized gains
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12:17:38 <raftoral> Thanks chris for your answer
12:18:48 <raftoral> I've changed to use average-cost but trial balance is unbalanced as well
12:20:24 <raftoral> If the imbalance is due to the unrealized gains, I don't understand why the report is balanced up to a point when I register a new transaction
12:21:25 <jralls> raftoral does that transaction involve more than one commodity?
12:21:41 <raftoral> I mean, the currency account in USD, where I register the transaction, has several transactions and the trial balance is balanced
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12:23:50 <raftoral> Those transactions are for receiving USD from an account in EUR and for buying and selling several stocks
12:24:30 <raftoral> jralls, thanks for the answer. No, the transaction only has a stock in USD
12:24:51 <jralls> That's two commodities, the stock and USD.
12:25:00 <raftoral> Yes, right
12:25:49 <raftoral> And the base currency is EUR
12:25:50 <jralls> If you're selling the stock there's nearly always a gain or loss. You need to book that gain/loss in order for the trial balance to balance.
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12:26:12 <raftoral> No. In this case, the transaction is for buying
12:27:01 <raftoral> So, I suppose there shouldn't be any gain/loss
12:28:02 <jralls> Ah, foreign currency stock transactions. See https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=797796
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12:29:22 <jralls> The TL;DR is that there's an implicit conversion of USD->EUR->XXX where XXX is the stock. GnuCash doesn't know how to handle that.
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12:31:05 <raftoral> Thanks, jralls, but I don't understand. What means TL;DR?
12:31:18 <jralls> Too long; didn't read
12:31:39 <raftoral> Ah, OK, sorry
12:32:54 <raftoral> In this case, the transaction is for buying the same stock that I bought before and it's already registered with any imbalance
12:33:24 <raftoral> So, I don't understand why in this case is different
12:37:37 <jralls> What does "registered with any imbalance" mean?
12:38:35 <jralls> Regardless, I don't have enough information to know why this case might be different, and the only way for me to get it would be to audit your book.
12:38:54 <raftoral> Yes, I mean the trial report is balanced when I registered before other buy for the same stock
12:39:48 <raftoral> Yes, maybe it's the only solution
12:40:49 <raftoral> But, are you able to do that?
12:40:55 <jralls> But consider that the report is trying to compute the average cost not in USD but in EUR, your book currency. There are therefore two conversions to compute the average of, USD->EUR and XXX->EUR. GnuCash fails at that.
12:41:18 <jralls> No, I'm not willing to do that for you. Hire an accountant in your jurisdiction.
12:41:38 <raftoral> OK, thanks
12:42:20 <raftoral> What you mean 'GnuCash fails at that'?
12:42:30 <raftoral> Is a GnuCash error?
12:44:45 <jralls> Yes, that's what the bug I linked earlier is about.
12:44:57 <raftoral> OK, perfect
12:45:46 <jralls> warlord, https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=797951 is spam. Can you remove it, or at least the link, from the db?
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12:46:36 <raftoral> So, I'll be waiting for the bug solution and see if that solves the problem
12:46:44 <raftoral> Thanks for the support!!
12:47:25 <raftoral> It was very helpful! Cheers!
12:49:02 <jralls> You'll have a long wait. Fixing it requires some pretty big changes in the way GnuCash handles foreign currency.
12:52:14 <warlord> Ugh. Editing that DB is so hard. Hold on, let me dust off those memories.
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12:52:42 <raftoral> OK, thanks for the information. So, I'll take it with calm and forget the trial balance is unbalanced!!!
12:55:15 <warlord> done
12:55:26 <andreas^> when building gnucash you are recommending me to install into /opt.
12:55:40 <andreas^> just making sure that's what you mean.
12:56:07 <jralls> andreas^ I don't think anyone here recommends that.
12:56:41 <andreas^> jralls: https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Building_On_Linux#System_wide_multiuser_installation_locations
12:56:50 <andreas^> look at /opt
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12:58:16 <raftoral> Sorry, jralls, just one more question
12:58:47 <jralls> andreas^ Unfortunately mediawiki doesn't have 'blame' so it's not possible to learn quickly who wrote that.
12:59:00 <jralls> raftoral, go ahead.
12:59:12 <raftoral> For registering foreign currency, what is it recommended, to use a currency account or a bank account?
12:59:26 <andreas^> I tried installing into /opt, it just laid everything like /opt/bin /opt/share etc.
12:59:42 <andreas^> it said on the wiki that the build environment would lay everything in order.
12:59:57 <andreas^> just to make clear, you recommend /usr/local
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13:01:53 <warlord> andreas^, I think it is somewhat of a personal preference. I like /opt, because it keeps gnucash nice and contained. If you install into /usr/local then it is possible to have build vs install conflicts.
13:02:02 <jralls> raftoral, "registering" doesn't make sense in that context and GnuCash doesn't have a currency account type. But for most cases an account of type Bank is what you want.
13:02:43 <andreas^> warlord: problem for me is that it didn't lay the structure into a "gnucash" folder.
13:02:46 <jralls> andreas^ And I prefer to install into my user directory so that I don't have to sudo ninja install.
13:02:59 <jralls> andreas^ did you tell it to?
13:03:09 <andreas^> no.
13:03:39 <jralls> Well then why were you expecting it to do something different than what you told it?
13:04:09 <andreas^> because the wiki instructed me to do that command.
13:04:29 <andreas^> I didn't know I needed to tell it.
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13:07:00 <raftoral> Are you sure that GnuCash doesn't have a currency account type? Because I can see that type in my book
13:08:54 <jralls> Ah, probably a translation issue: There's a Cash type and that could be translated to something that round-trips back to "currency". It's intended for accounts that reflect physical bank notes and coins, like "Cash in Wallet".
13:10:02 <raftoral> Maybe. I'm using GnuCash in English language and the type is 'Currency'
13:11:29 <raftoral> In any case, I follow what you say and use the bank account type
13:11:36 <jralls> Umm, where do you see that?
13:12:18 <raftoral> When I edit the account
13:13:24 <raftoral> You'll see Account Type field... 'Currency' between others types
13:14:25 <jralls> I see Bank, Cash, Asset, Credit Card, Liability, Stock, Mutual Fund, Income, Expense, Equity, A/Recievable, A/Payable, and Trading. No Currency.
13:16:39 <raftoral> You're right but I realized that if you edit a stock account you'll see a Currency type
13:18:14 <jralls> Oh, that's interesting.
13:19:33 <raftoral> Maybe, there is something weird
13:19:51 <jralls> The comments at https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/blob/maint/libgnucash/engine/Account.h#L132 say that it's deprecated since GnuCash 1.7.0. Maybe it's time to remove it.
13:21:13 <raftoral> Ah, OK. So, I'll change the type
13:23:14 <raftoral> Thanks again for your support
13:23:26 <raftoral> I've got to go. Bye!
13:23:31 <jralls> OTOH it will display an amount and price column register with a currency, something users have asked for recently.
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13:25:26 <warlord> The currency-type account dates back to the days when accounts had both commodity AND currency and this was a currency "trading" account.
13:30:10 <jralls> Not to be confused with Trading accounts... But if someone is doing Forex speculation it sort of makes sense to have an account type for it.
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13:33:54 <jralls> warlord, fell, gjanssens I'm inclined to remove https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Building_On_Linux#Locations_to_which_GnuCash_may_be_installed in light of the andreas's comments. I don't think we should be giving sysadmin advice in our wiki, especially given that we can't even get it right.
13:36:42 <warlord> jralls, or fix it to make it right? ;)
13:36:53 <warlord> When we used configure it was much easier.
13:37:05 <jralls> How so?
13:37:32 <jralls> Are you referring to Cmake's goofy handling of etc?
13:38:31 <warlord> yes.
13:42:37 <jralls> So what's right? IMO it's "If you're a knowledgeable sysadmin then you know what to do. If you're not, then you shouldn't be messing around outside your home directory."
13:49:41 <warlord> Well, giving the correct cmake magic to get it to work like ./configure --destdir=/opt would be a good minimum, IMHO.
13:56:45 <jralls> I think you mean --prefix=/opt. DESTDIR is for make install to do a two-step installation. That magic doesn't exist. We need GNUINSTALLDIRS to get the CMAKE_INSTALL_XXX variables and that performs unnatural acts on /opt/foo/etc.
13:59:05 <warlord> Yeah, see, it's been so long I forgot the syntax
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14:02:00 <fell> jralls removing it from the wiki will ,mean you will have to correct answers on questions on the mailing lists again and again.
14:03:14 <jralls> fell How's that different from now?
14:03:44 <fell> warlord, did you also recommend $HOME/opt or was that a misunderstanding by mixing / with /home?
14:04:27 <jralls> *I* recommend $HOME/gnucash unless the user knows what they're doing.
14:05:29 <fell> yes, but if the spouse wants to use your fresh build GC, too?
14:05:42 <jralls> Get a mac.
14:06:20 <jralls> Or a Windows machine. Or install with flatpak.
14:06:38 <reactormonk> When using the CSV import, I have a csv that has a deposit column, and a withdrawal column. Sadly the withdrawal column has the amount as -5.00, so everything gets added as a deposit
14:07:39 <jralls> reactormonk, if the signs are flipped, flip the labels. IOW tell GnuCash that it's a deposit column.
14:08:04 <jralls> IIUC it's OK to have two deposit columns.
14:08:27 <fell> the wiki page has links to FHS an XDG specs, so the readers can get more details..
14:09:04 <jralls> Specs are for the experienced. They're unintelligible to noobs.
14:09:25 <fell> At least I would not add them to every email.
14:10:42 <jralls> If you can find a good "How to be a Unix Sysadmin" site, we could point them there.
14:16:28 <warlord> fell, no, I did not recommend /home/opt or $HOME/opt
14:18:56 <fell> I believe, it was DaveC49: https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/index.php?title=Building_On_Linux&diff=prev&oldid=15362
14:36:55 <fell> Locatoin /opt has the comment "Requires installation under a directory with the packagename e.g. /opt/gnucash […]". If they can not read, it is a separate problem.
14:37:46 <jralls> fell, no the problem is "The GnuCash build process handles this requirement if you choose /opt as the CMAKE_INSTALL_PREFIX location." That's not true.
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14:38:55 <jralls> The other problem is that using an install prefix beginning with /opt puts the environment file in /etc/opt/.../etc/gnucash and GnuCash doesn't know to look for it there.
14:40:09 <warlord> I still consider that a SIGNIFICANT cmake bug.
14:40:42 <jralls> They're following the FHS: https://refspecs.linuxfoundation.org/FHS_3.0/fhs/ch03s13.html
14:41:54 <jralls> And if you consider that /etc is supposed to be for system files it sort of makes sense that those shouldn't be buried somewhere in /opt.
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14:42:22 <warlord> Well, it depends how you view /opt
14:42:51 <warlord> Historically, /opt has always been for self-contained packages, so /opt/<pkg>/etc has, for decades, been the norm.
14:44:20 <warlord> From that page: "Generally, all data required to support a package on a system must be present within /opt/<package>, including files intended to be copied into /etc/opt/<package> and /var/opt/<package> as well as reserved directories in /opt." So cmake installing it into /etc/opt is wrong.
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14:44:38 <warlord> It should be put into /opt/etc and then a post-install hook "copies" it to /etc/opt/.
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14:52:22 <fell> warlord, we are not talking about the original istallation, but the required postprocessing linking.
14:53:38 <jralls> I think warlord means that that's what cmake should do with /opt/.../etc, /opt/.../var, and /opt/.../run.
14:54:45 <jralls> warlord, Cmake's bug tracker is https://gitlab.kitware.com/cmake/cmake/-/issues. I don't see a dupe, why don't you file a bug?
14:55:59 <fell> IIUC somewhen FHS changed it: use /etc/opt/$PACKAGENAME direcly instead of /opt/$PACKAGENAME/etc (and additional linking.
14:57:35 <fell> and we need to look there
14:57:42 <jralls> Meanwhile, we could detect CMAKE_INSTALL_PREFIX begins with /opt and set(CMAKE_INSTALL_SYSCONFDIR ${CMAKE_INSTALL_PREFIX}/etc). Hmm, actually we could just do that
14:58:11 <jralls> regardless because in all other cases it's what cmake will do anyway.
14:58:48 <jralls> The bit warlord quoted doesn't say link, it says copy.
14:59:42 <fell> oK, to save the original against changes.
14:59:43 <warlord> True, but I think it's perfectly safe to ln -s /opt/gnucash/etc /etc/opt/gnucash
15:01:16 <jralls> It would make more sense to ln -s /opt/gnucash/etc/gnucash /etc/opt/gnucash because for non-opt it's $PREFIX/etc/gnucash.
15:01:53 <warlord> I've got about 25 pages of proposal to write this week, so dont really have time to properly formulate a bug report.
15:02:22 <warlord> true, but again, /opt is special. You're not going to have /opt/gnucash/etc/emacs/...
15:04:55 <jralls> No, but if you link it your way the environment file path will be /etc/opt/gnucash/gnucash/environment.
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15:09:57 <warlord> Why? Isn't the e.g. environment file installed as /opt/gnucash/etc/environment ?
15:10:27 <warlord> so if you link /etc/opt/gnucash to /opt/gnucash/etc, then you'd find /etc/opt/gnucash/environment -- which is what you'd expect from an /opt file
15:14:04 <jralls> It's normally installed as $PREFIX/etc/gnucash/environment... and when I tried to install to /opt just now without sudo I got "file cannot create directory: /etc/opt/gnucash/gnucash"
15:16:15 <warlord> Back in the day, configure treated /opt special.
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15:16:22 <warlord> I know that logic was removed
15:17:10 <jralls> Was that an autoconf/automake macro or was it our code?
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15:27:06 <fell> jralls, https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/blob/maint/README#L2, 4. Probaly more to adjust?
15:29:16 <jralls> grep says that's the only one.
15:29:50 <fell> No mayor dep change there?
15:30:23 <jralls> It says to look at README.dependencies which I've already updated.
15:32:53 <jralls> Hmm, except it doesn't say boost program options and that has a shared lib too.
15:36:17 <jralls> Both fixed & pushed.
15:37:58 <fell> Thx, I updated https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Release_Process#Source_preparation
15:40:10 <jralls> I knew you would! ;-)
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21:23:58 <warlord> jralls, in response to your question from 15:17ET, I believe it was an autoconf macro that set the #defines for the paths in our code. But it's possible it could have been a combination of autoconf and header-defines. Maybe Geert remembers.
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