2020-06-08 GnuCash IRC logs
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01:25:01 <fell> Guten Morgen, Mechtilde! https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=797783 war uns allen bisher nicht aufgefallen, wie peinlich.;-)
01:48:50 <CDB-Man_> Hmm, is there something that can be done about blurred scaling on Windows? For example, my windows tablet is 2560*1440 , so the scaling is set at 125%. The monitor connected to it is classic 1920*1080. When I bring over to the monitor, it scales, but everything is blurry
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04:43:38 <gjanssens> .
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10:39:40 <chris> CDB-Man_: I've just pushed commits that I'm 100% sure about to master. 797786 still has some more changes to try fix FX date chosen, untested.
10:40:13 <chris> CDB-Man_: also 0.01 rounding not pushed; I'm not sure why your test produced such wide discrepancy.
10:40:38 <chris> ergo: try 797786 #c29 still!
10:41:01 <chris> (in addition to latest master)
10:42:22 <chris> jralls_afk: would you consider 797746 to be a guile bug or a wart?
10:44:51 <CDB-Man_> chris: cool, I'll try the next nightly tomorrow
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10:45:19 <CDB-Man_> Regarding the collapsing of trading account details, is the difficulty because it's grouped under equity?
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10:45:45 <CDB-Man_> If so, what if we created a 4th category, ie assets liabilities equity trading
10:46:09 <CDB-Man_> Then trading can either be 0 depth or report depth
10:51:00 <chris> too complex
10:51:13 <chris> hmm maybe
10:51:16 <chris> still ugly
10:52:08 <chris> is trading conceptually separate from equity?
10:52:30 <chris> if so does RE belong to Equity then?
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10:57:06 <CDB-Man_> [10:52:08] <+9d54b3chris> is trading conceptually separate from equity?
10:57:11 <CDB-Man_> "it depends"
10:57:44 <CDB-Man_> It's a component of equity, but typically a specific subcomponent
10:58:09 <CDB-Man_> For example under IFRS, unrealized gains on investments is recorded as AOCI
10:58:21 <CDB-Man_> Which stands for accumulated other comprehensive income
10:58:53 <CDB-Man_> Retained earnings however is definitely standard equity
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11:26:54 <chris> if so does RE belong to Equity then?
11:26:56 <chris> oops
11:30:46 <CDB-Man_> Yes, RE can stay in equity
11:33:32 <chris> that was a mistake irc comment :)
11:34:27 <chris> it's *possible* to display Trading in its own line vs UG, but I'd seriously still like to fix the UG calculator
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11:59:28 <CDB-Man_> Well yeah I agree, but until that's done, this is the easiest Band-Aid
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12:15:07 <fell> gjanssens: Some idea about the docker error in travis on gnucash-docs/master after each merge?
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12:21:39 <jralls> chris, 797746 is a guile design failure.
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12:22:40 <jralls> CDB_Man_, you've already created the money out of thin air. The problem is accounting for it.
12:23:34 <codesmythe> fell: jralls started moving the docs build to ubuntu 18 (gnucash-docs master 4bddb820) at my nudge (https://lists.gnucash.org/logs/2020/04/29.html#T20:46:02), but there are still things in the build to fix.
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12:31:39 <codesmythe> Could someone please change https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash-docs/blob/maint/.travis.yml#L6 from ubuntu-14.04 to ubuntu-18.04?
12:37:11 <fell> codesmythe, when we started the 3.x branch we decided to set that as minimal required fot that branch, IIRC.
12:38:25 <codesmythe> My bad, I meant to point to that line in master.
12:38:58 <fell> Which is the oldest living LTS?
12:40:49 <codesmythe> I'm not sure. The idea was that if gnucash/master was using ubuntu-18.04 for CI, then it made sense for gnucash-docs/master to do the same.
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12:43:40 <fell> yes, should be the same.
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13:25:31 <gjanssens> fell: travis was a missed file error - the docker scripts were renamed to ubuntu-18.04, but our travis config file was still pointing at ubuntu-14.04
13:25:35 <gjanssens> Should be fixed now
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14:34:46 <CDB-Man_> jralls: given that all accounts and all entries always balance on a per entry basis, this is seemingly more a quirk for when multiple currencies are involved, for example MSFT bring priced in USD, then sub converted into CAD, so as you suggested yesterday my book is probably too complex, and this is why I previously already gave up on TB (and that's still the case today)
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14:36:05 <CDB-Man_> Hmm actually, I wonder if it's the fact that I add the stock account as a split to dividends
14:36:24 <CDB-Man_> To accumulate for APR purposes
14:36:48 <CDB-Man_> But those splits are $0
14:37:22 <CDB-Man_> I could try to validate that I don't have any single sided trading account entries, ie debit real account, credit trading
14:37:57 <CDB-Man_> It could also be how I've recorded capital gains using trading accounts to create real GL accounts
14:38:40 <CDB-Man_> Could try to find an inflection date with TB, much like how Oct 31 was the inflection date for new balance sheet
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14:51:04 <jralls> CDB_Man_, it's really no different from stocks. If you buy 100 XYZ for $10/share and sell it for $15/share the two transactions each balance internally but $500 has materialized in your book and the TB won't balance until you account for that addition with a capital gains transaction or pair of splits. The same applies if you exchange 120 CAD for 100 USD and then exchange it back for 130 CAD except the magic money is 10 CAD instead of 500.
14:51:31 <jralls> Oops, CDB-Man_ ^^^
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14:54:44 <jralls> A more complicated example might be XYZ trades in USD so you first bought $1000 USD for 1200 CAD, bought and sold the XYZ, and converted the 1500USD into 1950 CAD.
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14:58:00 <jralls> In that case you have a 600 CAD gain from the sale of XYZ and a 150 CAD gain from CAD->USD->CAD assuming the rules in Canada are that the stock gain is converted back to CAD at the cost of the USD, but probably nobody would care if you just booked the whole thing as a 750CAD gain on the stock and ignored the currency component.
15:04:08 <jralls> GnuCash sure doesn't care as long as you add that 750CAD to Equity (Income) as well as to Assets. Otherwise the accounting equation doesn't hold.
15:13:00 <CDB-Man_> I've definitely accumulated currency gains in the USD cash accounts
15:13:13 <CDB-Man_> Given that I've sold USD stocks into USD
15:13:59 <CDB-Man_> Though since it has yet to be realized back into CAD, it ought to be embedded in the average cost of the USD balance...
15:14:43 <CDB-Man_> I haven't *realized* on any currency yet, I'm a net seller of CAD, haven't bought CAD back with USD or JPY ever
15:15:05 <CDB-Man_> Which is why it seems odd it's saying I have an unrecorded currency gain
15:16:06 <CDB-Man_> Hmm, actually, I might have done it once in my old brokerage account
15:16:12 <CDB-Man_> Need to check that one tonight
15:16:45 <CDB-Man_> Though finding the cost basis in CAD will be quite difficult, to be able to book that gain
15:17:47 <jralls> The capital gains from sale of stock in your USD brokerage accounts *are* accounted for, right?
15:17:55 <CDB-Man_> Yes
15:18:32 <CDB-Man_> The screenshot from yesterday is how I record gain loss on sale, there is an explicit P&L split into income
15:18:45 <CDB-Man_> Same procedure for both CAD and USD gains
15:19:12 <CDB-Man_> For USD gains, it's recorded into a USD P&L account
15:19:32 <CDB-Man_> All splits in the transaction would be to a USD account
15:19:43 <jralls> Hmm. You have an Income:P&L--USD or something like that?
15:19:52 <CDB-Man_> (USD cash, stock account, commissions expense, gain loss, etc)
15:20:12 <jralls> What about dividends from USD investments. Do they stay in your USD brokerage account?
15:20:16 <CDB-Man_> Correct, all of my investment P&L accounts have a CAD and USD counterpart
15:20:44 <CDB-Man_> USD dividend are debit USD cash asset, credit USD dividend income
15:21:07 <CDB-Man_> The only time currency cross happens are when I transfer CAD to USD
15:21:39 <CDB-Man_> Debit USD clearing, credit CAD clearing
15:21:54 <CDB-Man_> The clearing accounts are fulfilled from CAD or USD cash ledgers
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15:24:59 <jralls> So the flow is CAD bank->CAD clearing->USD clearing->USD brokerage, with the currency exchange in the middle?
15:25:08 <CDB-Man_> correct
15:25:47 <jralls> Are the clearing accounts asset or equity?
15:26:03 <CDB-Man_> There's probably 4 more in between steps I'm leaving out... But for the purposes of this exercise it shouldn't impact...
15:26:11 <CDB-Man_> Nothing is equity
15:26:17 <jralls> OK
15:27:09 <jralls> The old brokerage account would presumably not account for the imbalance beginning last October 31.
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15:28:14 <jralls> Or did chris's changes resolve that?
15:28:51 <CDB-Work> well, chris has yet to resolve that issue -- his temporary band-aid is merely to replace his new logic wholesale with the legacy report's logic
15:29:17 <CDB-Work> the old brokerage account was liquidated in 2018, so that should not be it
15:29:33 <CDB-Work> unless that liquidation is what crystallized the gain?
15:29:49 <CDB-Work> in any case, the difference in BS if $58... is separate from the difference in TB of $~2k
15:31:46 <jralls> Right. You might do the same exercise with TB and dates to see if it's consistent or fluctuates over the last couple of years.
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15:46:30 <CDB-Work> indeed, I'll try to pinpoint an inflection point date some time this week
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16:15:55 <jralls> @tell mohave chris I've worked out a better way to fix the dependency flow in reports and pushed the changes.
16:15:55 <gncbot> jralls: The operation succeeded.
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19:14:15 <chris> CDB-Work: I'm not 100% sure of the current BS FX dates. While writing it I was not aware of the tiny nuances of choosing fx-date.
19:15:16 <chris> CDB-Work: 797793 wants closing-entries to be non-zero in equity, and RE to take closing entries into account. Is this correct?
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19:20:10 <chris> jralls: with your recent Xcode fix, there's still circular (use-modules) logic. Wouldn't it be better to untangle it as well?
19:22:58 <CDB-Work> chris: for 797793, indeed, if I have posted a closing entry, for example Dr Retained Earnings, Cr Expense, such that expense is now $0, then yes I would expect "retained earnings" to be zero. Closing entries dated 2019-12-31 or earlier would remove all prior year P&L amounts, so that retained earnings will only accumulate current year P&L, and the
19:22:58 <CDB-Work> refore equal net income per the income statement
19:24:00 <CDB-Work> it's not technically a "GAAP" or "IFRS" thing, but the general procedure in doing closing entries is to zero out the P&L accounts, so that P&L registers only include current year amounts
19:24:57 <chris> CDB-Work: so you expect the closing entires to be visible as part of the Equity section?
19:25:27 <CDB-Work> if by "visible" you mean "my retained earnings equity account is something other than $0", then yes
19:25:56 <CDB-Work> which is how the legacy report operates
19:26:56 <chris> shucks.
19:27:33 <CDB-Man_> As a more general comment, from an accounting mechanics perspective, the legacy report is generally correct
19:28:13 <CDB-Man_> You could complain about how the back end is poorly written, or how the layout could use an update, but otherwise mechanics it was fine
19:29:40 <chris> "my retained earnings equity account is something other than $0"... I mean for a *very* recently closed book, today's balance-sheet should show RE=$0 and Equity has Closing-Entries?
19:29:44 <CDB-Man_> Can't comment on anything other than nearest in time though... As that is the only fx option I will use
19:29:54 <CDB-Man_> As that best approximates GAAP
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19:31:39 <CDB-Work> If today I recorded Dr: McDonald's expense $10, Cr. Cash $(10). then I closed the books also today via Dr. Retained Earnings $10, Cr. McDonald's Expense $(10), I would expect to see on my balance sheet:
19:32:06 <CDB-Work> Cash $(10) CR, Equity $10 DR, RE $0
19:32:22 <CDB-Work> hmm, maybe using an expense was a poor example...
19:32:29 <chris> got the idea.
19:33:32 <CDB-Work> If today I recorded Dr. Cash $10, Cr: Interest income $(10). then I closed the books also today via Dr. Interest income $10, Cr. Retained Earnings $(10), I would expect to see on my balance sheet: Cash $10 DR, Equity $(10) CR, RE $0
19:37:57 <CDB-Man_> I'm actually kinda curious how you managed to exclude closing entries
19:38:28 <CDB-Man_> Perhaps naively, I would think that just iterating through all the accounts you would pick them all up by default
19:38:37 <CDB-Man_> And excluding was a conscious choice
19:39:44 <CDB-Man_> In something like an income statement it makes sense to ignore closing entries... As otherwise your income statement would by definition return $0
19:39:58 <chris> the closing-entries strategy was chosen because BS and P&L use common code.
19:40:26 <CDB-Man_> Ah
19:40:42 <chris> fao jralls it may be better to revert balsheet-pnl back to beta until CDB-Man is finished kicking it
19:41:14 <CDB-Man_> Yep, definitely cannot use the same logic! IS wants ignorance, which is opposite to BS
19:41:23 <chris> :-/
19:42:22 <CDB-Man_> Hmm, I think the legacy IS, excluding closing entries is optional?
19:42:42 <CDB-Man_> Reason it's optional rather than default, is because non ignorance has its uses
19:43:07 <CDB-Man_> Running an IS that includes closing entries is a great way to identify an account you forgot to close
19:43:32 <chris> legacy IS ignores Closing Entries
19:44:20 <CDB-Man_> No need to add such a layer of complexity then, as it can be done via other means
19:44:30 <CDB-Man_> Just ignoring is fine
19:46:27 <CDB-Man_> In any case, some reports give the option to pattern match for closing entries, since having the option to include or exclude can be useful
19:47:19 <chris> ok gtg soon. the UG & FX is still unsolved.
19:48:06 <CDB-Man_> Yeah, those issues will be much harder
19:49:45 <chris> if you're 1/2 familiar with scheme I'm happy to help you decode balsheet-pnl.scm whenever you want!
20:01:01 <CDB-Man_> I'm only familiar with tax schemes :)
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20:33:55 <jralls> chris, re use-modules loop: Yes. Where is it?
20:34:50 <jralls> chris re balancesheet-pnl OK. It sounds like it perhaps needs a bit of a re-think.
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20:36:07 <jralls> chris are there other new reports where you changed the accounting?
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21:29:01 <CDB-Man_> jralls: hmm, going back to Dec 2015, the TB is still out of balance, so it looks for sure ot be relating to USD balances, doing some mroe digging
21:30:57 <CDB-Man_> back in 2010 when i defined an opening balanc esomewhere of $1,100 as my only balnace... the TB balances here!! :)
21:34:29 <CDB-Man_> hmm, my initial hypothenis is that at year-end, i need to remove all USD balances back to CAD, usin gthe historic average cost fx rate, then re-book the year-end USD balance using the year-end actual Fx rate
21:34:48 <CDB-Man_> that or, there's some sales of USD back nito CAD that i've yet ot discover
21:45:05 <CDB-Man_> hmm, from beginning to 2014-06-01 the TB blances, but on 2014-06-02 it goes out of balance.... let's see what happened on June 2nd
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21:47:17 <CDB-Man_> okay, that is the day i started buying USD stocks
21:47:44 <CDB-Man_> i funded the USD broker account on 2014-05-29, but I didn't make any purchases until 2014-06-02
21:47:53 <CDB-Man_> and that's when all hell breaks loose
21:49:28 <CDB-Man_> the out of balance goes from $0 to $2,097.67
21:50:30 <CDB-Man_> the total value of purchaes that day is USD $1,902.02
21:50:33 <CDB-Man_> now to get this in CAD...
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21:56:13 <CDB-Man_> okay, the exchange rate in effect at that time is $0.9065 USD per 1.00 CAD, to the CAD value is $2,097.67
21:56:29 <CDB-Man_> in other words... my out of balance comres from the fact that I purchased USD stocks with USD cash???
21:59:52 <CDB-Man_> if this is saying i need to wash all my USD purchases through a CAD clearing account first.... ugh
22:00:03 <CDB-Man_> that seems like a fundamental flaw
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22:01:15 <CDB-Man_> yep, the out of balance is exactly equal to the balance of the trading accounts
22:01:33 <CDB-Man_> I think in order for the TB to wor, it also needs to include trading accounts at average cost values....
22:04:35 <CDB-Man_> jralls: https://i.imgur.com/CGu6VFY.png $15,987.30 + 5.98 = $15,993.28, agrees to TB total debit column. $18,090.95 + $74.88 = $18,090.95, equals the TB credit column. out of balance is $18,090.95 - $15,993.28 = $2,097.67, which agrees to the balnace in TRADING of $2,097.67
22:11:36 <CDB-Man_> jralls: here is the transacton data: blob:https://imgur.com/343877ee-2a4b-4070-b028-23994334c81c - the TB and account summary were run with average cost, and therefore the numbers line up to transaction date of course
22:12:43 <CDB-Man_> i think the solution is that even on average cost mode, trading accounts need to be included, but displayed at average cost as well
22:13:47 <CDB-Man_> its either that... or every time i spend US, i need to "sell" it back into CAD and realize a (very difficult to calculate) gain or loss on FX, then "buy" the stock with CAD instead of USD
22:13:57 <CDB-Man_> which seems absurd/silly
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22:15:16 <CDB-Man_> when i run the account summary on today's date, i can see the trading accounts at average cost equal the difference observed
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