2020-05-12 GnuCash IRC logs
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01:27:10 <fell> cybertani[m]: that was the translation of the website. Because it had less than 10% translated it was disabled. Better use https://www.gnucash.org/index.phtml?lang=ca instead.
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01:30:11 <fell> To run the program in spanish, see https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Locale_Settings
01:32:06 <fell> To improve our translations, have a look at https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Translation
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09:22:03 <cybertani[m]> fell thanks! I saw them, but i would like to translate the website not the project.
09:22:56 <cybertani[m]> I would try what you mention at first. Thanks again!
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09:25:33 <cybertani[m]> Apart from that, the english locale shouldn't be "en"?
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09:38:32 <warlord> cybertani[m], es.po should be the spanish translation.
09:39:06 <warlord> english is the native, en, and "C" translations.
09:55:55 <cybertani[m]> Great! So i would try to setup the repo and make a pr changing that file
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10:22:21 <mohave> .
10:22:21 <gncbot> mohave: Sent 14 hours and 30 minutes ago: <jralls> The icons require adwaita-icon-theme. That used to be in gtk-osx-themes.modules but I moved it and its two dependencies to gtk-osx.modules and added it to meta-gtk-osx-gtk3 yesterday so you can just rebuild that (and get a bunch of other updates as well).
10:22:22 <gncbot> mohave: Sent 14 hours and 29 minutes ago: <jralls> I also changed the rpath-fix-script in the CMakeLists.txt for boost so that it changes the @rpath paths back to absolute paths.
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10:44:19 <warlord> cybertani[m], yes.
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11:33:53 <warlord> Grr. My IPv6 tunnel seems to be acting like a straw!
11:35:14 <mohave> jralls: looks good, thanks!
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11:44:16 <chris> anyone: gnc_default_price_print_info is not accessible from guile, although gnc_default_print_info is accessible. *confused*.
11:45:39 <chris> ah the former wasn't copied into app-utils.i
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12:10:45 <chris> re: "too many heap sections" wingo suggests there may be leaks -- I also wonder all these typemaps in .i -- are they really leak-proof?
12:13:00 <warlord> chris, there certainly could be bugs..
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12:39:37 <jralls> chris, There are very likely leaks in our code, but if the garbage collector is getting hold of pointers that we allocate it's more likely to cause double-free or use-after-free than leak.
12:40:42 <jralls> I wonder if the GC deadlocks are also partly down to building 32-bit. 64-bit has become the default in the last few years.
12:50:50 <warlord> How hard would it be to change over to 64-bit?
12:56:02 <jralls> Not terribly. It's mostly making a clean base directory and running setup_mingw64.ps1 with -arch x86_64. The only hard part is that I'll need to do it on my VM first and build WebKit for 64-bit.
12:57:27 <chris> meanwhile, jean_laroche is doing some interesting work... I can't review unfortunately.
12:58:25 <jralls> Yeah, it's too bad that he needs such close supervision.
13:00:10 <chris> For #720 it'll create a separate monetary->string especially for prices e.g. exchange rate renderers. regular split-amounts & totals *can* be obligatorily converted to decimal with SCU, I presume.
13:00:29 <chris> I suppose I *could* go hunt down all these price renderers.
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13:01:41 <jralls> The fact that there's more than one is itself a problem.
13:02:04 <chris> more than one?
13:02:15 <jralls> Price renderer.
13:02:23 <chris> currently prices are rendered exactly the same as amounts&totals
13:02:27 <chris> (in reports)
13:02:46 <chris> they just need to be located and converted to string.
13:03:07 <jralls> Quote: " I suppose I *could* go hunt down all these price renderers."
13:03:33 <chris> ah I meant price-renders in individual reports
13:03:55 <jralls> There should be exactly one function for doing any particular task. When there's more than one it becomes a maintenance headache.
13:05:34 <jralls> That's not one function in each report, either. It's one function in the program. All other code needing that task does calls the one function.
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13:07:57 <jralls> As for special monetary->string for prices, isn't a monetary struct {gnc-commodity*, gnc-numeric} ? AFAIK we don't have a price object, but if we did it would be struct { gnc-commodity*, gnc-commodity*, gnc-numeric}.
13:09:12 <chris> hmm in theory you're right, but the gnc-ui-util gnc_default_price_info doesn't request a target commodity
13:10:47 <jralls> It doesn't require any commodity, does it?
13:11:12 <chris> no!
13:11:41 <chris> used in the stock register; allows e.g. 1AAPL=$1020.3456
13:12:06 <jralls> My point is that if it's a monetary it's an amount or a value. If you're using a monetary for a price that's a bug.
13:14:42 <jralls> The fact that there isn't a GncPrice object with two commodities, a ratio (as a gnc-numeric or a GncRational), and a GncDateTime is a design bug, but like most design bugs fixing it is a major task. There's not time to fix that for 4.0 and maybe not for 5.0.
13:15:43 <chris> yes: monetary objects have been used to render the Exchange Rates in reports. See balance sheet (old or eguile) - Exchange Rates are rendered as "1 STOCK = $1,234.56"
13:16:13 <chris> with #720 complete it'll be "1 STOCK = $1,234.5612" or "1 STOCK = $1,234 + 34567/78901"
13:17:50 <chris> on that note gtg
13:18:08 <jralls> OIC, converting the price to an amount in the other commodity. A hack, but in the absence of GncPrice acceptable. Bye.
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14:34:25 <fell> I wonder, if we should distinguish Price (buy/sell) and Quote (query a ratio) more clear.That might also solve several translator issues.
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14:37:40 <fell> e.g. I translated "Price database" with "Kurs-Datenbank",which would be translated back "Quote database".
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14:45:12 <jralls> fell, except that we put both prices and quotes in it.
14:46:38 <fell> IMHO each price has also a quote, but not all quotes are related to prices.
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14:52:02 <fell> warlord, how about setting 'blah www.gnucash.org' in announcehtml on bugzillas general params?
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14:55:06 <jralls> fell, *is* rather than *has*, but OK. Perhaps entries in the Glossary to go with it:
14:56:10 <jralls> Price: The ratio between amount (in the split's account's commodity) and value (in the transaction currency) in a particular split.
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14:57:44 <jralls> Quote: An offered, historical, or average exchange rate between two commodities.
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15:04:34 <fell> Sounds good. Reviewing the GUI and the docs is the more complex part.
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16:16:03 <warlord> fell, I can look into that.
16:16:12 <warlord> (or jralls can try it, I think he has full admin privs)
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16:17:18 <fell> I believe, I could change it, too. But what do we want to display?
16:18:12 <fell> Probably we want something similar like the topic here?
16:20:00 <warlord> I don't think it needs as much information as the /topic here
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16:22:41 <jralls> Something like <h2><a href="https://www.gnucash.org">GnuCash</a> Bug Tracker</h2>?
16:24:14 <fell> and a link to https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Bugzilla?
16:24:38 <fell> For instructions see ...
16:25:26 <jralls> I think it goes into the left end of the blue banner so we might want to keep it concise. But let's try and find out...
16:25:59 <warlord> Where is the "Welcome to Bugzilla" string coming from (if you go the main page at bugs.gnucash.org)
16:27:10 <jralls> I think it's hard-coded, but I'm not sure.
16:27:51 <jralls> Meanwhile my GnuCash Bug Tracker heading appears only on that page, not on every page.
16:28:17 <warlord> I think that's okay...
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16:28:24 <warlord> At least, it is better than nothing.
16:28:43 <warlord> I never looked into theming and adding the gnucash logo to the banner.
16:30:11 <warlord> There is a "HOME" link on the top-level that has no text (or, on my screen, the text is the same color as the banner)
16:30:23 <jralls> My mistake, forgot to reload. it's on every page below the blue banner as well as on the main page, where it looks quite ugly.
16:31:54 <warlord> FWIW, bugzilla.redhat.com says "Welcome to Red Hat Bugzilla". So it's changeable, although could still be hard-coded.
16:32:54 <warlord> Looking in the sources, I see only this: /usr/share/bugzilla/template/en/default/welcome-admin.html.tmpl:[% title = BLOCK %]Welcome to Bugzilla[% END %]
16:32:55 <jralls> The instructions for the announcehtml field talk about skins/standard/global.css and skins/custom.global.css.
16:33:28 <jralls> We're on BZ 5, right?
16:33:32 <warlord> Right.
16:33:41 <warlord> 5.0.4
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16:34:00 <fell> https://bugzilla.readthedocs.io/en/5.0/integrating/templates.html?highlight=Title#particular-templates
16:34:21 <warlord> There is an upgrade to 5.0.6
16:35:14 <jralls> https://pluto.coe.fsu.edu/bugzilla/docs/en/html/integrating/templates.html
16:35:43 <jralls> Eh, fell's link is probably better.
16:36:12 <warlord> I guess this is something I'm going to have to change locally, huh?
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16:36:47 <jralls> I think so unless you want to wrap the BZ in a git repo like www is.
16:38:23 <warlord> I'll think about that. Obviously there will be an issue on upgrades regardless of what approach we take.
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16:42:05 <jralls> Not necessarily. If we follow the template/en/custom route the upgrade process shouldn't overwrite it and if the BZ devs are really nice it will do any necessary migration.
16:43:53 <warlord> So you're suggesting just to put template/en/custom into git?
16:44:54 <warlord> (BIAB)
16:46:11 <jralls> We could make a customization repo with custom templates and css and have symlinks from the appropriate BZ directories.
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17:20:23 <jralls> feil: I linked the banner from the website and added links to the wiki's Getting Help and Bugzilla pages. What do you think?
17:31:57 <fell> Looks fine.
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17:34:26 <fell> Although behind Contact or AboutI would expect: Which item is responsible, email if the admin, ...
17:35:38 <fell> But I think we can improve Getting_Help in that direction.
17:35:48 <jralls> I don't understand "which item is responsible"...
17:37:43 <fell> If I see parts of the page are illegal, whom can I accuse?
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17:40:05 <fell> In Germnay "Impressum" is common as websites are considered publication under the press law.
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17:43:00 <fell> or like a whois entry a) techinical and b) legal responsible.
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17:44:09 <jralls> Sounds like a good reason to keep the hosting in the USA. That sort of nonsense is severely frowned upon by courts here.
17:44:37 <jralls> Starting with the very concept of "press law".
17:47:52 <fell> that construct begins with the constitutional censorship id dissolved, but you must not lie, ...
17:49:43 <jralls> Who gets to decide what is truth?
17:50:00 <jralls> That's a very slippery slope.
17:50:54 <fell> I tried only to sketch the basic thougts.
17:52:17 <jralls> In common law countries (the UK and former colonies using their legal tradition) all of that is civil damages law: If you do someone harm by saying untrue bad things about them they can sue you. Thanks to our free speech protections the bar is a *lot* higher for getting an award than in most other common law countries, especially England.
17:53:00 <jralls> Criminal penalties for lying are limited to doing so under oath before a court or legislature.
17:53:54 <jralls> And curiously to law enforcement. You have the right to say nothing but not to lie.
17:55:41 <fell> Before EU harmonization you were not allowed to write "My product is better than yours" in an ad.
17:56:59 <jralls> That's nuts. "My product is better than yours" is clearly an opinion. Prosecuting someone for expressing it is way beyond the pale.
17:58:27 <fell> OTOH "My product fulfills A, B and C." is more informative.
17:58:37 <jralls> Anyway, back to contacts: There's no corporate entity so there's no way to have a "deliver legal service here". In a way that leaves Linas and Derek rather exposed because an investigator would trace the IPs to their houses and serve them.
18:00:15 <jralls> But someone can go to the cops, say "fell's product doesn't fulfill B" and the government takes your company apart to gather evidence.
18:00:49 <fell> Perhaps Getting Help should start with somethin containing "volunteer driven organisation" as a disclaimer.
18:01:41 <jralls> That would be a good start. I think we need to do that in big bold text on the www home page too.
18:01:57 <fell> yep.
18:02:01 <jralls> And it's not just volunteer driven, it's all volunteer.
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18:03:19 <jralls> I'm a bit tired of the flywires of the world who scream "GnuCash doesn't do exactly what I want, rewrite it from scratch just for me!"
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18:05:10 <fell> That is perhaps because we make it not clear enough, Gnucash is double-entry accounting, which is in some ways different from an household-book.
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18:09:57 <jralls> Some? Lots. And our description on www is perhaps a bit misleading about it. It's easy to read that and think we're more like Quicken than Quickbooks.
18:10:30 <jralls> Maybe we should tell people who want something like Quicken to use KMyMoney.
18:10:44 <fell> Why not?
18:15:07 <fell> In the wiki, I think we should create About[_Gnucash_org] as a template used in most starting points.
18:15:56 <jralls> What have you in mind for starting points? FAQ and wiki home?
18:18:25 <fell> yes, and I will create the same for De_*
18:18:43 <jralls> OK
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19:00:22 <dougr> Hi all, i have tried installing 3.10, 3.9, 3.8 on windows. All three crash on strartup. Details in the bugzilla report. https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=797749 Any ideas for a workaround?
19:00:57 <dougr> i am thinking a missing dll or something.
19:06:32 <jralls> The Windows diagnostic says it's a General Protection Fault, i.e. trying to open a memory location outside of its allocated space.
19:06:47 <dougr> The trace files are 0 bytes.
19:07:45 <jralls> OK. Does the splash screen come up?
19:08:08 <dougr> no splash screen.
19:09:33 <dougr> just dies immediately.
19:09:47 <jralls> Try setting debug. You can either edit the shortcut and put --debug at the end of the command or open a cmd or powershell window and tell it "c:\Program Files (x86)\gnucash\bin\gnucash" --debug.
19:10:20 <jralls> That might still produce an empty tracefile.
19:10:40 <jralls> fell, I'm going to leave flywire's editor request to you.
19:11:07 <jralls> Which will tell us that it's dying before logging starts up.
19:11:07 <fell> OK
19:14:35 <dougr> jralls: Still prouces empty trace file.
19:15:06 <fell> My impression: He is very enthusiastic, but as a Windows user still lacks our culture.
19:17:19 <jralls> fell, there are lots of Windows users who have no problem with our culture. How about "Sorry, we don't think that you have enough experience with GnuCash yet to have edit on the wiki."
19:18:55 <dougr> i don't even think gnucash is getting to main. I can put a command line argument -doug and it just silently does nothing (other than the crash reportin the event log).
19:20:38 <dougr> the other apps in te directory will start (i.e. memcard) if I truy and run them from teh command line.
19:21:01 <jralls> For that to be true it would have to be GPFing in the linker. That doesn't seem likely.
19:21:13 <jralls> The part about not getting to main, I mean.
19:21:57 <jralls> But GnuCash does a bunch of setup before it tries to parse the command args.
19:24:17 <jralls> Including starting a Guile interpreter. Hmm, there was a problem some time ago where startup was crashing because Guile choked on the Vietnamese locale. What are your locale settings?
19:24:34 <jralls> That's Settings>Region & Language.
19:24:43 <dougr> i get slightly further if ii run as administrator - "* 16:22:38 INFO <gnc.gui> [main] System locale returned en_US
19:24:43 <dougr> * 16:22:38 INFO <gnc.gui> [main] Effective locale set to English_United States.1252.
19:24:43 <dougr> "
19:25:06 <jralls> OK, not locale then.
19:27:33 <jralls> That message is line https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/blob/maint/gnucash/gnucash-bin.c#L906.
19:28:59 <jralls> So the command line has been parsed but nothing is tested yet.
19:32:46 <jralls> How do you feel about getting a stack trace? https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Stack_Trace#Windows
19:33:29 <dougr> when i run as admin I get this as well. https://pastebin.com/U70c1XTf
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19:35:42 <dougr> i would install mingw? i have visual studio as well, though I do't imagine it would help. I haven't used VS in 20 years though I installed a recent one.
19:37:45 <jralls> Unfortunately GnuCash is compiled with gcc which makes the wrong kind of debug symbols for the VS debugger. But you don't need mingw, the link is to a stand-alone gdb.exe.
19:42:31 <jralls> I'm about out of time for today. If you can get a stack trace and post it to the bug I can look at it tomorrow morning.
19:42:48 <dougr> jralls: copy that
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20:01:03 <dougr> https://pastebin.com/BPcs2DsZ
20:01:27 <dougr> is the stackgrade. note i am attempting to run gnucash 3.8
20:01:38 <dougr> jralls:
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20:11:31 <fell> dougr: https://lists.gnucash.org/logs/2020/05/12.html#T19:42:31
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20:17:27 <dougr> fell: understood jralls is busy till the morning, just posting the info they requested.
20:17:47 <fell> right
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22:22:22 <linas> OK jralls -- I see you tagged me --- I read surrounding chat -- will read email "real soon now"
22:26:03 <linas> re legal entities I can set up an LLC here in Texas to create a legal entity; its stunningly easy to do, it affords some protection, it makes banking easier ...
22:26:28 <linas> will pursue by email shortly...
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