2020-04-23 GnuCash IRC logs
00:00:09 *** chris has quit IRC
00:23:45 *** chris has joined #gnucash
00:23:46 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v chris
00:36:31 *** Mechtilde has joined #gnucash
00:56:52 *** angel has quit IRC
00:57:25 *** angel has joined #gnucash
01:03:27 *** angel has joined #gnucash
01:04:01 *** fell has quit IRC
01:05:20 *** fell has joined #gnucash
01:05:21 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o fell
01:07:23 *** sbluhm has joined #gnucash
01:07:23 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v sbluhm
01:10:08 *** angel_ has joined #gnucash
01:11:25 *** angel has quit IRC
01:11:25 *** angel_ is now known as angel
01:12:37 *** sbluhm has quit IRC
01:16:07 *** angel has quit IRC
01:21:28 *** omnireq has quit IRC
01:21:39 *** omnireq has joined #gnucash
01:21:39 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v omnireq
01:29:39 *** sbluhm has joined #gnucash
01:48:28 *** angel has joined #gnucash
01:49:28 *** omnireq has quit IRC
01:49:42 *** angel has quit IRC
01:50:01 *** omnireq has joined #gnucash
01:50:01 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v omnireq
01:58:42 *** Gerd has joined #gnucash
02:01:13 *** Mechtilde has quit IRC
02:01:22 *** fell has quit IRC
02:02:21 *** gjanssens-travelling has quit IRC
02:02:41 *** fell has joined #gnucash
02:02:41 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o fell
02:09:29 *** gjanssens-travelling has joined #gnucash
02:23:09 *** suukim has joined #gnucash
02:31:58 *** omnireq has quit IRC
02:32:09 *** omnireq has joined #gnucash
02:32:09 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v omnireq
03:16:40 *** Mechtilde has joined #gnucash
03:19:18 *** gjanssens has joined #gnucash
03:19:18 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o gjanssens
03:20:35 *** Mechtilde has quit IRC
03:21:57 *** PowaBanga has quit IRC
03:23:06 *** jervin has quit IRC
03:23:13 *** PowaBanga has joined #gnucash
03:24:39 *** jervin has joined #gnucash
03:27:16 *** jervin has quit IRC
03:30:42 *** Mechtilde has joined #gnucash
03:30:53 *** jervin has joined #gnucash
03:39:26 *** jervin has quit IRC
03:51:52 *** storyjesse has quit IRC
03:58:11 *** storyjesse has joined #gnucash
03:59:46 *** storyjesse has quit IRC
04:27:37 *** ECDHE_RSA_AES256 has quit IRC
04:37:12 *** ecdhe has joined #gnucash
04:44:28 *** omnireq has quit IRC
04:45:23 *** omnireq has joined #gnucash
04:45:23 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v omnireq
04:55:33 *** Gerd has quit IRC
05:06:28 *** omnireq has quit IRC
05:07:24 *** omnireq has joined #gnucash
05:07:24 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v omnireq
05:33:28 *** omnireq has quit IRC
05:33:39 *** omnireq has joined #gnucash
05:33:39 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v omnireq
05:44:28 *** User has joined #gnucash
06:02:56 *** phoenix has joined #gnucash
06:12:20 *** FH_thecat has quit IRC
06:30:26 *** Aussie_matt has quit IRC
06:44:32 *** phoenix has quit IRC
07:24:22 *** chf has quit IRC
07:26:44 *** chf has joined #gnucash
07:48:24 *** chris has quit IRC
07:52:08 *** chris has joined #gnucash
07:52:08 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v chris
08:24:17 *** Aussie_matt has joined #gnucash
08:43:49 *** tonysoar has joined #gnucash
08:50:17 <chris> upgraded ubuntu to 20.04...
09:16:42 <fell> Congrats, chris!
09:16:56 *** phoenix has joined #gnucash
09:22:43 *** Jimraehl1 has joined #gnucash
09:27:20 *** Jimraehl1 has left #gnucash
09:29:30 *** phoenix has quit IRC
09:29:39 *** sbluhm has quit IRC
09:30:18 *** phoenix has joined #gnucash
09:43:40 <lmat> jralls: Excellent question. I haven't nailed that down yet. I was going to answer you last night, but never got my answer formulated.
09:43:54 <lmat> chris: That is very helpful. That report looks very close to what I want.
09:45:42 <lmat> jralls: I need to dr Assets:AR $100, cr Revenue:clientA, cr liabilities:taxes when I bill?
09:45:47 <chris> :)
09:46:17 <chris> by bill you mean when you create an invoice
09:46:38 <lmat> chris: Well, I do it daily every time I have billable hours. When I create the invoice, I'll invoice for the AR amount, right?
09:47:14 <lmat> chris: But yes, bill=invoice roughly.
09:47:19 <chris> Income:Sales -$100, AR +$110, Taxes:Collected -$10
09:47:29 <chris> and when you get paid, AR -$110, Bank +$110
09:47:48 <lmat> chris: And when i do taxes, I say "I made $100 in gross revenue"?
09:47:58 <chris> depends what you mean by Gross
09:48:26 <lmat> chris: Hmm... what could I mean?
09:48:32 <chris> "Gross" is a very loosely defined term
09:48:52 <chris> Gross can mean, including tax i.e. Gross Sales, Net Sales
09:49:02 <chris> Gross can mean, excluding tax, i.e. Gross Income, Net Income
09:49:10 <chris> A.V.O.I.D
09:49:39 <chris> Usually for tax purposes you'd say "Sales = $100, plus tax 10% = $110 collected from client"
09:49:50 <chris> Usually for business tax purposes you'd say "Sales = $100, plus tax 10% = $110 collected from client"
09:50:14 <chris> But for personal tax purposes you'd say "Income = $100, my income tax = 33% = $33, my net income = $67"
09:50:19 <chris> get confused:)
09:51:10 <lmat> personal taxes would be Income = $110, income tax = $36.3, net income $73.7 ?
09:51:28 <chris> No; the $10 was never your income; you'd remit to the govt during the year
09:51:32 <lmat> okay.
09:51:58 <chris> IIUC the $10 you mean is a tax collected by businesses, remitted to govt during business activity
09:52:12 <chris> it's a "luxury tax", and usually basics like bread are exempt
09:52:19 <lmat> chris: The issue is: I'll have to fill out a government form to decide how much taxes to pay (social security tax, medicare tax, income tax withholding, unemployment tax, etc.). I think the top number needs to be $110.
09:52:33 <chris> ah that's different, you're not running a business
09:52:40 <lmat> chris: By the way, I'm not selling any products, only services in case it matters. I'm a software developer :-)
09:52:51 <lmat> chris: Yes I am.
09:54:17 *** tonysoar has quit IRC
09:54:19 <lmat> chris: Sorry if I've been unclear up till now! My questions are about my business and how it should handle these things. I'm an employee of my business. When I work for the business, the business AR increases.
09:54:43 <chris> you can try the income-gst-statement but it's designed for business tax
09:55:01 <chris> the numbers are fine, just the headers may not be exactly what you mean
09:55:21 <chris> it simply splits transactions into income vs tax columns
09:57:07 <lmat> chris: So when the hours come in, dr AR $110, fed unemp tax $5, state unemp tax $5, medicare $5, social security $5, fed income tax withholding $5, state inc tax wh $5, Revenue $<the rest>
09:57:36 <chris> ok where Revenue = whatever goes into your bank
09:57:57 <chris> but why/how use AR
09:58:07 <chris> AR means you're sending an invoice
09:58:15 <lmat> chris: yes. The client will pay the AR amount.
09:58:16 *** Gerd has joined #gnucash
09:58:31 <chris> I think you got it wrong
09:58:40 <chris> the client pays $110 to the business, as part of services rendered
09:58:54 <chris> the business *can* pay $110 to an employee as part of payroll
09:58:58 <chris> don't confuse the two
09:59:04 *** Mechtilde has quit IRC
09:59:36 <chris> are you employee or contractor?
09:59:39 <lmat> The client will pay the business the AR amount. The business will pay various governmental tax departments, then pay an employee.
09:59:42 <lmat> Employee.
10:00:06 <chris> and you're keeping the datafile for the business, or for yourself the employee?
10:00:16 <lmat> Business.
10:01:07 <chris> are you in USA?
10:01:11 <lmat> yes.
10:01:30 <chris> so your business will invoice the client $300+sales tax I think
10:02:03 <lmat> chris: There is no sales tax.
10:02:08 <chris> ok
10:02:21 <chris> the $300 is business income, to be disbursed to shareholders or employees as the owner wishes
10:02:32 <chris> owner can decide to pay $110 payroll to employee
10:02:52 <chris> getting paid, and paying employee, are very different business transactions
10:03:01 <chris> they don't get lumped into 1 transaction
10:03:12 <chris> IMHO, IIUC etc
10:03:50 <lmat> "the $300 is business income, to be disbursed to shareholders or employees as the owner wishes" Much of it goes to taxes.
10:04:46 <chris> anyway I stand my point... to mix AR and Payroll will lead to to trouble
10:06:40 <lmat> Yup. Thanks, Chris! You have been helpful as always!
10:06:40 <chris> np
10:06:40 <chris> I'd write the txns as
10:06:40 <chris> (1) Income->AR $300 - send invoice
10:06:40 *** warlord has quit IRC
10:06:40 <chris> (2) Bank->AR $300 - gets paid
10:06:45 *** warlord has joined #gnucash
10:06:50 <chris> (2) AR->Bank $300 - gets paid, oops
10:07:40 <chris> (3) Bank->expenses:employee + tax:employee_tax_withholding + etc - pay the employee
10:08:12 <chris> (4) tax:employee_tax_withholding -> expenses:govt - pay the govt on behalf of employee
10:08:58 <chris> (5) bank -> expenses:business_tax - pay business taxes
10:09:26 <lmat> That makes sense.
10:13:15 <lmat> chris: I think the GST is not the report I need. I'm wanting a payroll report with columns summing expenses:employee, employee_tax_withholding, business_tax, total cost, and maybe some others.
10:13:52 <lmat> jralls: I think the answer to your question, "how are you storing that information in GnuCash?" is: I'm flexible. or I don't care.
10:14:50 <chris> well there's no payroll report; with careful use the GST report will still split the transactions into columns for you
10:16:14 <chris> many small businesses will outsource payroll to an accountancy firm
10:16:20 <chris> safer this way
10:24:58 *** omnireq has quit IRC
10:25:46 *** storyjesse has joined #gnucash
10:25:53 *** omnireq has joined #gnucash
10:25:53 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v omnireq
10:42:53 <lmat> chris: I was outsourcing. Paychex go is pretty incompetent. Their web app barely usable.
10:44:25 *** phoenix has quit IRC
11:01:27 *** Aussie_matt has quit IRC
11:07:28 *** omnireq has quit IRC
11:07:39 *** omnireq has joined #gnucash
11:09:40 *** omnireq_ has joined #gnucash
11:10:53 *** omnireq has quit IRC
11:34:25 *** sbluhm has joined #gnucash
11:34:25 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v sbluhm
11:37:09 <chris> lmat I think I now understand your business, it's similar to RCTI in Australia
11:37:33 <chris> business invoices client X hours, $Y/hr
11:38:11 <chris> business pays employee (X*percentage) hours and deducts business cost, taxes, social security
11:38:25 <chris> RCTI combines invoice and payroll
11:51:25 *** Gerd has quit IRC
11:53:47 *** sbluhm has quit IRC
12:06:10 *** guak has joined #gnucash
12:12:20 *** storyjesse has quit IRC
12:20:44 <jralls> lmat, what's your company setup? Is it a corp that files its own taxes or do you file on sked-C?
12:37:42 *** guak has quit IRC
12:38:43 *** guak has joined #gnucash
12:43:28 *** omnireq_ has quit IRC
12:43:39 *** omnireq_ has joined #gnucash
12:59:25 *** suukim has quit IRC
13:04:28 *** omnireq_ has quit IRC
13:04:39 *** omnireq_ has joined #gnucash
13:11:31 *** Han has joined #gnucash
13:18:59 *** jervin has joined #gnucash
13:25:28 *** omnireq_ has quit IRC
13:25:39 *** omnireq_ has joined #gnucash
13:40:40 *** Mechtilde has joined #gnucash
13:43:27 <warlord> Wow, I am very soon coming up to my 21'st anniversary of subscribing to the gnucash-devel mailing list!
13:43:36 <warlord> (well, soon meaning this fall)
13:43:46 <warlord> I clearly missed my 20-year anniversary.. :-(
13:47:55 *** Han has quit IRC
13:48:52 <lmat> jralls: s-corp.
13:50:56 *** lcanaska has joined #gnucash
13:51:00 <lmat> warlord: Wow, cangratulations! Gnucash is much in your debt.
13:52:33 <finster> jralls: fair enough. but why the hell would one want to use the python 2.7 that ships with macos, for example? (I'm developing python a bit).
13:52:44 <finster> jralls: that's where homebrew comes in handy
13:53:43 <jralls> finster: Not really, you can get a latest-and-greatest python Mac binary direct from python. Besides, Catalina has python3.
13:54:34 <jralls> The reason I said "for the moment" about that yesterday is that Apple's Catalina release notes suggested that they might be removing all scripting languages from MacOS in the future.
13:54:40 *** angel has joined #gnucash
13:56:21 <jralls> I agree whole-heartedly about py2.7. Apple should have converted their python scripts years ago.
14:02:49 <jralls> lmat, are you the only employee?
14:02:53 <lmat> jralls: yes.
14:06:01 <jralls> Why bother with withholding at all then? Just do a K2 with income and expense and pay tax on the profit along with self-employment (both halves of FICA).
14:06:48 <lmat> jralls: Will do more research. Thank you.
14:07:22 <jralls> IANAA so you should definitely talk to a CPA or enrolled agent.
14:08:09 <lmat> jralls: Would you link to K2?
14:08:40 *** sbluhm has joined #gnucash
14:09:01 <jralls> Sorry, don't understand what you mean by link.
14:09:18 <lmat> Here's K-1: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1065sk1.pdf
14:09:51 <jralls> Sorry, that's what I meant. Got confused between taxes and skis, I guess.
14:09:59 <lmat> jralls: No sweat.
14:10:48 *** angel has quit IRC
14:42:24 *** jervin has quit IRC
14:48:52 *** Gerd has joined #gnucash
15:25:09 *** sbluhm has quit IRC
15:29:28 *** omnireq_ has quit IRC
15:29:43 *** omnireq_ has joined #gnucash
15:33:30 *** bertbob has quit IRC
15:38:17 *** jervin has joined #gnucash
15:51:29 *** Gerd has quit IRC
15:58:48 *** bertbob has joined #gnucash
15:58:48 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v bertbob
16:09:30 *** foobaz has joined #gnucash
16:09:31 *** foobaz has left #gnucash
16:10:58 *** omnireq_ has quit IRC
16:11:09 *** omnireq_ has joined #gnucash
16:12:08 *** lcanaska has quit IRC
16:18:14 *** jervin has quit IRC
16:27:41 *** Mechtilde has quit IRC
16:43:43 *** gjanssens has quit IRC
16:47:28 *** omnireq_ has quit IRC
16:47:39 *** omnireq_ has joined #gnucash
17:03:33 *** KaiForce has quit IRC
17:45:35 *** User has quit IRC
17:46:23 <lmat> jralls: Let's see...I have an S-Corp owned by my wife. I'm told the IRS expects the business to pay me a "fair wage" on which Social Security and Medicare will be levied for the business and me. Retained earnings converted to owner equity, and will be taxed on the owner's 1040 (whether or not the owner actually withdraws the money).
17:46:58 *** omnireq_ has quit IRC
17:47:02 *** oozer has joined #gnucash
17:47:31 *** omnireq_ has joined #gnucash
17:47:48 <lmat> jralls: If I'm understanding properly, the answer to your question ("Why bother ... Just do a K1 ... and pay tax on the profit..?") is "There is tax advantage to doing it otherwise."
17:49:17 <lmat> jralls: Beyond that, a corporation is required to withhold money in some circumstances (https://www.irs.gov/businesses/small-businesses-self-employed/income-tax-withholding-assistant-for-employers) although I haven't figured out how often it has to be paid to the IRS :-/
17:50:56 <lmat> (Ah, perhaps Publication 15 specifies when the withholdings have to be deposited: https://www.irs.gov/publications/p15#d0e3964 )
18:43:41 *** gjanssens-travelling has quit IRC
18:45:39 *** gjanssens-travelling has joined #gnucash
18:46:10 *** Aussie_matt has joined #gnucash
18:51:26 *** jervin has joined #gnucash
18:57:46 *** jervin has quit IRC
18:59:32 *** jervin has joined #gnucash
19:08:10 *** lcanaska has joined #gnucash
19:22:20 *** jervin has joined #gnucash
19:22:37 <jralls> lmat, sorry, I was focussed on code. IIRC remittances for FICA and FITW must be made monthly. I think the tax advantage applies to C-corps which are taxed at the corporate rate as opposed to S-corps that are pass-through and so not taxed themselves. Both wages and profits are taxed at your regular income rate. But it's been a long time since I had an s-corp and the law has changed quite a bit.
19:49:18 *** jervin has quit IRC
19:50:13 *** jervin has joined #gnucash
19:50:32 *** jervin has quit IRC
20:12:00 *** omnireq_ has quit IRC
20:13:31 *** omnireq has joined #gnucash
20:22:56 *** guak has quit IRC
20:33:23 *** omnireq has quit IRC
20:33:33 *** omnireq has joined #gnucash
20:42:03 *** oozer has quit IRC
20:48:49 *** chf has quit IRC
20:53:30 *** chf has joined #gnucash
21:03:52 *** omnireq has quit IRC
21:04:03 *** omnireq has joined #gnucash
21:58:00 *** TownsendHardware has joined #gnucash
23:34:39 *** jervin has joined #gnucash