2020-04-15 GnuCash IRC logs
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03:50:41 <gjanssens> .
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07:59:42 <fell> win32/build-logs:*** module aqbanking not built due to non buildable xmlsec ***
08:00:46 <fell> *** Error during phase clean of xmlsec: ########## Error running make -j 3 clean *** [4/16]
08:05:52 <fell> gjanssens, jralls: I am clueless ^
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08:47:00 <gjanssens> fell: 'make clean' for xmlsec apparently fails. From the logs it appears that command is trying to chmod non-existant files and directories.
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08:52:44 <gjanssens> Reading the makefile it does so right before trying to remove these directories.
08:53:12 <gjanssens> I presume the underlying idea is that if such a directory has non-writeable files, rm -fr would fail
08:53:30 <gjanssens> However that's poor reasoning because now the command fails if the directories don't exist.
09:00:14 <fell> there is xmlsec-1_2_29. We could consider to updrade.
09:03:15 <fell> but I see no change in Makefile.am
09:03:54 <gjanssens> Neither do I so I doubt it would make a difference
09:04:34 <gjanssens> I have triggered a manual xmlsec build on the build server. Apparently that doesn't trigger the 'make clean' step
09:05:08 <gjanssens> Once the package is built it should rebuild properly as from then on the files and directories it tries to chmod do exist
09:05:56 <fell> ... until our next cleanup
09:06:05 <gjanssens> Sure
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09:43:16 <gjanssens> fell: patch added to gnucash-on-windows to prevent this on future cleanups
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09:43:33 <fell> thanks!
09:44:22 <gjanssens> I've also restarted the master build as it appeared to hang for the last half an hour
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09:48:28 <FH_thecat> what is this file for?
09:48:29 <FH_thecat> .local/share/gnucash/accelerator-map
09:48:53 <warlord> FH_thecat, it's the map for accelerator keys (hot keys)
09:49:51 <FH_thecat> what is it for /
09:51:55 <fell> gjanssens: How about offering the patch to https://github.com/lsh123/xmlsec?
09:53:05 <fell> H_thecat: https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Keyboard_Shortcuts
09:53:53 <gjanssens> fell: done while you were writing your request...
09:54:07 <fell> cool!
09:54:55 <fell> FH_thecat ^
09:58:50 <fell> I will go for the 2.6.21 links on www now.
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10:12:15 <gjanssens> fell: did you already push changes for the 2.6.21 links ? It looks correct to me on the downloads page
10:12:52 <fell> But it opens "https://sourceforge.net/projects/gnucash/files/"
10:13:57 <fell> SF redirects https://downloads.sourceforge.net/sourceforge/gnucash/ into that place
10:14:00 <gjanssens> If you wait long enough that page will then start downloading 2.6.21. It does on my system
10:14:55 <gjanssens> Oh, hang on
10:15:04 <gjanssens> The one on our main page doesn't work right
10:15:24 <gjanssens> The one under "Older versions" of the program download page works correctly
10:15:36 <fell> Ah, the SF-delay "Please read our ads!"
10:16:24 <gjanssens> There's a typo in the one on our main page.
10:16:38 <gjanssens> It has a '-' instead of a '.' between 21 and setup
10:16:51 <gjanssens> Sorry, the other way around
10:17:43 <gjanssens> I'll add a fix
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10:25:59 <fell> it is the filename on SF, which is not conform to the rest.
10:28:05 <gjanssens> It conforms to the old standard. It looks like jralls decided to change this at some point. I guess for more consistency with the other downloads.
10:28:25 <gjanssens> Older 2.x packages had a dash instead of a dot as well.
10:28:48 <gjanssens> It may also be this was accidentally introduced when we switched to mingw64.
10:29:13 <fell> I watched in 2.6:odd:"-" .even:"."
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10:29:42 <gjanssens> It doesn't really matter. The old names will no longer change and with the 4.0 release on the horizon soon all relevant packages will have a .
10:31:26 <fell> No: Some people, like the user from the ML, search versions for their offline-Oldtimers. :-)
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11:16:20 <gjanssens> fell: that's not the issue. They can find the packages regardless of their name. They have to go to sf anyway for that.
11:16:32 <gjanssens> The issue is more with our code to provide convenience links
11:17:06 <gjanssens> Most of it is automated and generalized, which would make it more difficult to write correct links everywhere (as we witnessed here)
11:17:57 <gjanssens> However if 2.6 falls of the list of "old stable", that issue is reduced to the links for "last version on unsupported platforms" (like Win2K)
11:18:19 <gjanssens> Those links are frozen so once they're set (correctly) they won't change any more.
11:18:40 <gjanssens> New stable and old stable then all consistently will use the dot notation.
11:19:01 <gjanssens> That's what I really meant with it doesn't really matter soon
11:26:12 <fell> OK, something else: can you review in https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash-docs/pull/128 the automake change and provide the corresponding Cmake change?
11:27:25 <fell> After that PR is finished, I would like to start the long expected crossref between both docs.
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12:24:48 <jralls> gjanssens, fell, should we even keep the "oldstable" in the download box when we release 4.0? They'll both have the same supported OS versions, right? Or are we dropping Win7 & 8 for 4.0?
12:27:25 <jralls> I guess we should remove the references to GfA too. It's pretty clear that Ngewi doesn't support it any more.
12:28:40 <fell> Jralls, I suggested a few years ago https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash-htdocs/blob/f1af690df7ee7f40c4f79655080f5720e75975bd/externals/global_params.php#L6
12:29:11 <jralls> We also need to explain more clearly that GnuCash is Free-as-in-freedom software, written and maintained entirely by volunteers.
12:29:39 <gjanssens> jralls: I would drop support for Windows 7 just as Microsoft has
12:29:44 <jralls> fell: I don't think we should do what that fixme implies.
12:30:04 <gjanssens> What's the Microsoft stance on Windows 8 ?
12:30:29 <jralls> EOL 10 Jan 2023.
12:30:51 <jralls> Free support ended in 2018.
12:31:41 <gjanssens> Ok, and what's gtk's position on Windows support? Do they still claim to support Windows 8?
12:32:17 <gjanssens> I agree we should remove references to GfA.
12:33:02 <gjanssens> As for fell's suggestion: that is what we did with Windows 2000: our download page lists the last version we support there.
12:33:03 <fell> I know many people running there old chests until they die. with the origial software, offline of course
12:33:09 <jralls> I think they still support Win2K, but I'd have to look through gdk/win32 to be sure.
12:33:29 <gjanssens> Well they have more manpower than we do :)
12:33:36 <jralls> fell: I'm not at all confident that they're offline.
12:34:01 <fell> 2k < XP
12:34:37 <jralls> Yes, and WinNT 3.51 was before Win2K. So?
12:34:38 <fell> Where is the problem to keep the historical link list?
12:34:50 <fell> They are unsupported.
12:35:14 <gjanssens> As we still have the older versions on sourceforge I don't mind informing the users what was the last version we claimed to have worked on older unsupported platforms
12:35:36 <gjanssens> Not on the home page, but on the donwloads page, where it's clearly marked as such.
12:35:54 <gjanssens> downloads*
12:36:36 <fell> The archeologist will find it only on the hard way by trial.
12:37:27 <fell> Yes I am talking about the download page.
12:37:28 <gjanssens> jralls: As I can still build and run current master on my (now unsupported) Win7 box, I'm fine with "supporting" 4.x for Windows 8.1 still
12:38:01 <fell> I thought, we should move XP/Vista now there.
12:38:17 <fell> from the main page
12:38:52 <gjanssens> By the time we are at 5.x, 8.1 will be more or less out of extended support as well. That's the time to drop support for that one then.
12:39:17 <jralls> fell, I'm all for removing the link from the main page. I'm not for encouraging people to use obsolete operating systems.
12:39:46 <gjanssens> jralls: agreed though we won't be the ones to stop them
12:40:20 <gjanssens> Instead if we don't mention somewhere what was the last version that would run on their obsolete system, they'll go ask on the mailing list.
12:40:25 <jralls> We won't indeed. But there's no reason to expend any effort to help them, either.
12:40:41 <gjanssens> Someone there than has to give them a sermon and the right version.
12:40:49 <gjanssens> That's time wasted on volunteers as well.
12:41:22 <fell> What does it cost us tokeep taht info at the bottom of the download page?
12:41:23 <gjanssens> I doubt we'll be able to just say "sorry your operating system is no longer supported, go find an upgrade"
12:41:32 <jralls> We put the sermon in the FAQ and when someone asks we reply with a link to it.
12:41:41 <gjanssens> :D
12:41:49 <jralls> fell: It still has to be maintained every time SF changes their download URIs.
12:42:13 <gjanssens> You're the one mostly seeing that. Does that happen often ?
12:42:42 <jralls> Seems to be every two years or so.
12:42:55 <gjanssens> Hmm, that's annoying indeed.
12:43:04 <fell> Our pathes would need a cleanup, too. there is much redundancy.
12:43:19 <jralls> Paths?
12:43:57 <fell> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash-htdocs/blob/f1af690df7ee7f40c4f79655080f5720e75975bd/externals/global_params.php#L6
12:44:06 <gjanssens> Although we have to update our non-obsolete download links as well in those cases. I'd assume the base url would be the same for all, so I see only one single change: externals/global_params.php
12:45:43 <fell> $stable_path vs. $download_path
12:45:57 <fell> $unstable_path
12:47:24 <gjanssens> Looking at other free software packages...
12:47:30 <jralls> Ah, got it. Yes, as gjanssens says we need to make a single $base_path and derive the others from that.
12:47:43 <gjanssens> Here's what libreoffice shows: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/System_Requirements#LibreOffice_on_other_OSes
12:48:44 <jralls> BTW, the note at line 67 is because downloads.sourceforge.net redirects to www.sourceforge.net if the UA is for a browser. downloads.sourceforge.net is for automated retrieval tools like curl.
12:49:21 <fell> How about a comment about that?
12:49:45 <jralls> How about just removing the two lines? They're irrelevant for www.gnucash.org.
12:50:13 <fell> or so
12:54:18 <gjanssens> Firefox and Gimp support Windows 7 and up. I can't immediately find links to what was the last version of these packages to run on older Windows versions.
12:55:36 <fell> We do not support them, but to get the info can be a day of research.
12:56:51 <fell> the benefit of www against wiki: we have a few translations.
12:57:59 <gjanssens> Can we define a base url for downloads on wiki as well ? If so I'm not against storing this info in the wiki somewhere instead of on our official website
12:58:09 <gjanssens> That's what libreoffice does as well.
12:58:38 <fell> see templates
12:58:59 <fell> all pages prefix template
13:00:11 <fell> BTW I think we should replace sizing by Geerts video of the growing tree.
13:00:21 <gjanssens> Regardless of location, the info should clearly state we strongly discourage use of unsupported operating systems and only add the info for historical completeness. No support whatsoever will be given for this.
13:00:31 <gjanssens> :)
13:01:25 <gjanssens> If we want to be a bit more stubborn we can even forgo linking to the packages, just mention them. For historical interest that can be sufficient.
13:02:10 <gjanssens> If someone is really determined to install gnucash on unsupported historical operating systems they can nagivate to sf themselves to find the appropriate version.
13:02:24 <jralls> +1
13:03:02 <jralls> I just pushed a path cleanup.
13:03:17 <fell> I needed a half day to find out, which was the last for 2k.
13:03:47 <jralls> What about NT3.5? ;-)
13:04:09 <fell> The port was not ready to ship.
13:05:34 <jralls> IIRC, and perhaps incorrectly because it's been a long time, that the API for 2K wasn't different enough from NT3.5 to cause problems.
13:06:28 <jralls> The big difference was that NT3.5 had the UI in user-space and that caused some performance problems, so they moved it into kernel space for 2K.
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13:08:58 <jralls> Now what about GfA?
13:09:55 <jralls> Any reason to keep it?
13:12:47 <fell> jralls: watch you cleanup at https://www.gnucash.org/
13:13:23 <fell> download_path was used in indec and download
13:13:31 <fell> index
13:16:12 <fell> You could try to replace it by $base_path
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13:21:11 <fell> are spaces allowed around . concat?
13:24:40 <jralls> They are in naked php. Not so sure here.
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13:26:44 <jralls> That wasn't it.
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13:30:24 <fell> semicolon behind the base_path line?
13:31:09 <jralls> I didn't change that. I just replaced "download_path" with "stable_path".
13:31:22 <fell> because I see a syntax error in the next line: Unexpected ...
13:31:54 <jralls> Ah, wrong page, I see it.
13:32:50 <gjanssens> ftr, the xmlsec project rejected my PR and chose another solution. I'm fine with the solution but fairly annoyed by the half-assed reason for refusal.
13:32:55 <jralls> That was it.
13:33:16 <gjanssens> https://github.com/lsh123/xmlsec/pull/286
13:33:49 <gjanssens> The owner claims my find command could potentially effect ALL files instead of only the ones his command would trigger.
13:34:12 <gjanssens> For the life of it I don't see where that comes from and the owner so far refuses to explain.
13:34:35 <gjanssens> That's frustrating. I don't mind being wrong, but I do want to learn if I am.
13:38:12 <jralls> I don't think you're wrong, I think he doesn't know how find works.
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13:39:47 <fell> But the one-liner is easier to maintain.
13:41:19 <jralls> Only if you know what it does. ;-)
13:43:16 <gjanssens> Turns out he *is* right -- in theory. Though my find command could have been fixed as well by adding a maxdepth=0
13:43:32 <gjanssens> I don't care that much. As long as our build stops failing
13:47:11 <warlord> gjanssens, he did seem to answer you 10 minutes ago.
13:47:18 <warlord> so about 5 minutes after you posted here.
13:49:39 <fell> Back to www: IMHO "The GnuCash team recommends the GnuCash for Android app" is no longer the case.
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13:51:23 <fell> "Once upon a time there has been ..."
13:52:13 <jralls> fell, I think it better to just remove it.
13:53:16 <fell> we are still linked in uservoice and sourceforge
13:53:43 <fell> People could ask after tey see it there.
13:54:21 <jralls> Well, I'd like to get rid of Uservoice, too. I don't think that there's ever been a useful suggestion there, and people try to ask for support and report bugs there.
13:55:17 <fell> BTW, recently I had set "solved" instead of "invalid".
13:55:52 <jralls> Where's the connection on SF?
13:56:35 <fell> But I see, we have currently not the man power.
13:57:07 <warlord> fell, side question: were you able to access the win32 build server?
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13:57:54 <fell> OH,it was after midnight. I did n't try until now.
14:00:22 <fell> https://sourceforge.net/projects/gnucash/files/Gnucash%20for%20Android/
14:07:20 <warlord> jralls, I just got a weird email about a wiki update?
14:07:26 <warlord> ... from SF?
14:08:08 <jralls> Yeah, I just removed the wiki tab from the SF page. Someone had tried to get it to point to our wiki, but it doesn't work that way.
14:08:53 <jralls> It adds whatever you put in the URI box to "https://sourceforge.net/projects/gnucash".
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14:13:53 <warlord> Haha. ok.
14:14:05 <warlord> I guess you can't cause it to redirect?
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14:16:23 <jralls> I don't think so. I could make a tombstone with a link, but that seems pointless, we've already got a link on the support tab.
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14:21:40 <fell> I fear every visitor got an invitation.
14:26:41 <jralls> An invitation to what?
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14:27:52 <jralls> BTW, for translation commits I'd rather they say "Translation" instead of "L10N" in the summary. L10N should be used for changes to code affecting L10N, like c-holtermann's Python PR.
14:28:22 <jralls> The reason is that there's a separate line on the release notes for updated translations.
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15:06:00 <fell> jralls, your new page https..wiki.gnucash.org.wiki.GnuCash@wiki.gnucash.p.re.sourceforge.net
15:07:12 <jralls> Huh?
15:08:02 <fell> No, Holtermanns PR is I18N (preparation)
15:08:50 <fell> I fear all visitors of gnucash at SF got that invitation.
15:09:43 <jralls> Did you get one?
15:09:54 <fell> yep
15:10:05 <fell> and just forwarded to you
15:17:05 <jralls> So that's probably limited to the developer list on the site... for those who's emails haven't changed. Probably not to every person who's ever visited the gnucash page while logged in to SF.
15:21:50 <jralls> I wonder, though, if we should prune that list of the folks who are no longer involved.
15:26:39 <fell> Prehaps I should replace cm?
15:27:16 <jralls> As admin? Yeah.
15:28:00 <jralls> Done.
15:28:45 <jralls> cmarchi is still a dev, he was on the list twice.
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15:51:25 <fell> jralls: how about adding Chris?
15:52:44 <jralls> I think we should reduce the list, not add to it. There's actually no reason for anyone but the release tech to routinely access SF, we use it only to distribute files.
15:55:38 <fell> downgrade to member, who is no longer in core?
15:57:40 <jralls> Just remove who isn't an active admin. I don't see any reason for anyone to be in the developer group, there's nothing useful to do at that level.
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16:14:12 <fell> perhaps that have been other times, when people were proud to have xyz-dev@SF in their CV.
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16:23:15 <fell> Developer group dissolved.
16:31:10 <jralls> Thanks. I've just gotten the AQB-5.2.0beta build started on Windows.
16:32:27 <fell> Aqb6/gwen5
16:35:09 <fell> jralls, do you consider cstim and warlord as active admins?
16:36:04 <jralls> cstim's not active at all. warlord might not be active on SF, but he's sure actively administering everything else.
16:37:38 <jralls> I've forgotten, did cstim decide to withdraw from core? If not I think we'd hurt his feelings if we dropped him from SF without telling him first.
16:38:44 <jralls> He got mad last year when I asked him to submit PRs instead of pushing directly and even reverted one of my commits that he decided he didn't like.
16:45:44 <fell> I sent a mail @devel
16:46:45 <fell> He is in some way the secretary general (mod, ...)
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