2020-04-02 GnuCash IRC logs
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02:02:30 <chris> @tell gjanssens the budget liability is particularly annoying because it also cascades onto the eventual fix and handling of unreversed-amounts planned in master
02:02:30 <gncbot> chris: The operation succeeded.
02:12:42 <chris> @tell gjanssens even more particularly annoying is that my initial implementation on #630 was correct
02:12:42 <gncbot> chris: The operation succeeded.
02:14:21 <chris> @tell gjanssens i'm quite tempted to ask that we disable budgets in 3.9, and enable only the unreversed_budgets feature in 4.0, with no backward compatibility. anyone using budgets would recreate them.
02:14:21 <gncbot> chris: The operation succeeded.
02:30:01 <chris> @tell gjanssens also would like your view on how to handle 'invalid reconciled_date' issue -- I think my suggested fix on devel is acceptable
02:30:01 <gncbot> chris: The operation succeeded.
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02:56:27 <chris> @tell gjanssens and jralls - could we add https://pastebin.com/raw/ygxgV0se to v3.9 release notes?
02:56:27 <gncbot> chris: The operation succeeded.
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05:10:50 <gjanssens> .
05:10:50 <gncbot> gjanssens: Sent 3 hours and 8 minutes ago: <chris> the budget liability is particularly annoying because it also cascades onto the eventual fix and handling of unreversed-amounts planned in master
05:10:51 <gncbot> gjanssens: Sent 2 hours and 58 minutes ago: <chris> even more particularly annoying is that my initial implementation on #630 was correct
05:10:52 <gncbot> gjanssens: Sent 2 hours and 56 minutes ago: <chris> i'm quite tempted to ask that we disable budgets in 3.9, and enable only the unreversed_budgets feature in 4.0, with no backward compatibility. anyone using budgets would recreate them.
05:10:53 <gncbot> gjanssens: Sent 2 hours and 40 minutes ago: <chris> also would like your view on how to handle 'invalid reconciled_date' issue -- I think my suggested fix on devel is acceptable
05:10:54 <gncbot> gjanssens: Sent 2 hours and 14 minutes ago: <chris> and jralls - could we add https://pastebin.com/raw/ygxgV0se to v3.9 release notes?
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07:01:15 <chris> 797659: I hope gjanssens/jralls don't mind: I have a pending partial fix for it; I could merge for the win32 build and revert if incorrect. Alternatively someone could create a customized win32 build for me :)
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11:32:01 <chris> ISTM that in phil longstaff's initial budget editor view, negative liabilities means allocating some budget to liabilities. this seems to be an error.
11:32:37 <chris> because in the UNREVERSED_BUDGETS branch, positive liabilities means allocating budget to liabilities, even if sign-reversal=credit-accounts.
11:33:31 <chris> so it means the fix for liabilities sign will be easy for reversed_budgets. all we need to do is ensure the Scrubbing code can handle it.
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11:36:08 <chris> or maybe not. ignore above.
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12:13:50 <jralls> chris, I wonder about the diagnosis of the reconcile problems that David Reiser reported because he says all of the bogus reconcile dates are in the future so there should have been no filtering of the unreconciled splits.
12:15:07 <jralls> chris I thought you were using Linux for coding and are able to build there. What do you need a Windows build for?
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18:14:42 <orion_> Hello. I have an apartment that I share with roommates. When I receive money from a roommate, is it considered income or an asset (as in, accounts receivable)?
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18:20:21 <jralls> orion. That depends. Do you own the apartment and charge the roommates rent or are just the book-keeper and rent-payer?
18:21:42 <chris> jralls: on 30 june 2006, david reiser had completed his reconciliation but written 31.06.2020 instead. it meant he was able to complete reconciliation but all june-2006 splits had reconcile_date 30/06/2020.
18:22:35 <chris> so while calculating starting_balance 31/03/2020 reconciliation, it ignored all june-2006 splits
18:22:40 <chris> hence the discrepancy
18:22:43 <jralls> chris, Ah, got it.
18:23:03 <chris> windows builds are for 797659
18:24:55 <orion_> jralls, I do not own the apartment. The money flows though me.
18:25:33 <orion_> I am interested in being able to print out an individual report for each roommate detailing what they've paid me and what they owe me.
18:26:45 <chris> my candidate 797659 fix is https://github.com/christopherlam/gnucash/commit/2329c1c508dc4e8849089e17328e8c7c3c05f270
18:26:55 <jralls> Do you pay first and then they reimburse you, or do they pay you in advance and you pass the money on to the landlord, pay the utilities, etc.
18:28:52 <jralls> orion_ and do you care whether the accounting is strictly correct or are you just looking to "make it work" to generate the reports?
18:29:22 <orion_> Given the low risk of this, I am interested in being pedantic so that I may understand accounting better.
18:32:45 <jralls> Can you write Scheme? I don't think that we have any reports that will work for the correct way of accounting for it. The correct accounting is that you have an asset, the money they've given you, and one or more liabilities for rent, utilities, and whatever that you use that asset to partly pay off (the remainder being your own share).
18:33:40 <orion_> I don't know Scheme, but I know Haskell.
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18:34:53 <jralls> There aren't any Haskell bindings so you'll have to learn Scheme to write reports. I think it and Haskell are somewhat similar in that they're both functional so it shouldn't be too hard for you.
18:35:45 <orion_> If I always pay rent on time, is there a meaningful difference between it being a liability and it being an expense?
18:36:23 <jralls> It is in your book: Your rent expense is only your share.
18:38:09 <jralls> But if you set up a separate book for the group, let's call it a co-op, then the whole rent can be an expense and the payments from the roommates can be income.
18:38:37 <chris> orion_ this may be useful come tax time. if you record them as asset/liability then they won't appear in the income statement. if you record as income/expense then it means you are expected to pay tax on the money received, and trying to claim the share paid to your flatmates
18:38:44 <orion_> Oh, I see. You're saying that the total amount of rent is a liability while the portion of the rent I personally pay is an expense.
18:40:02 <jralls> In *your* book. If you set up a separate book for the co-op then you can treat it differently.
18:40:49 <orion_> jralls, That's a good idea. I didn't consider creating a separate book.
18:41:53 <orion_> chris, Ah, interesting point.
18:42:10 <orion_> jralls, I think I'll stick with a single book for myself.
18:44:06 <jralls> Because of the extra work of dealing with the real money that goes in and out of your bank account and the fictional money of the co-op?
18:45:22 <orion_> jralls, I think having a single book better reflects the reality of my finances. I like to be able to cross-reference things. I am not certain that's possible across books.
18:46:00 <jralls> It's possible, you just have to do it outside of GnuCash.
18:46:09 <orion_> Indeed.
18:46:10 <orion_> As I see it, there are two transactions: "Bob owes me" and "Bob paid me". Based on this discussion, I am to create an A/R account "Bob" under the Assets placeholder. When Bob owes me, I create a transaction crediting the value of the A/R account. On what other account would that transaction exist? From the perspective of the A/R account, what would be in the "Transfer" column?
18:47:01 <jralls> Liabilities:Rent.
18:48:09 <chris> ^huh it would be Expense:Rent
18:49:30 <chris> ^or maybe not
18:49:33 <jralls> chris, no, only his own 25%.
18:49:44 <jralls> (Assuming three roommates)
18:50:03 <chris> yeah right
18:50:19 <chris> If I pay $100 rent and expect $25 from each, the first txn would be:
18:50:27 <chris> Asset:Bank -$100
18:50:31 <chris> Expense:Rent +$25
18:50:38 <chris> AR:Bob -$25
18:50:49 <chris> oops AR:Bob +$25
18:50:52 <chris> AR:Charlie +$25
18:50:55 <chris> AR:David +$25
18:51:24 <chris> then maybe after prodding, Bob pays me his share: AR:Bob -$25, Asset:Bank +$25
18:52:21 <jralls> That would work. Now how what report will orion_ use to help prod Charlie?
18:52:45 <chris> Transaction Report from AR:Charlie only
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19:05:44 <orion_> hmm. That does seem like it would work!
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19:13:57 <chris> jralls: lmk about 797659. I want to get it done and dusted, realy annoyed about the whole thing. I think my branch has the right fix finally.
19:15:12 <jralls> chris, for user testing I think that the only safe thing to do is to push it so that it's in the nightly.
19:15:55 * chris agree
19:16:19 <jralls> But that's predicated on your having reproduced the problem in your test environment and confirmed that you've fixed it and haven't broken anything else.
19:16:53 <chris> slight change to the budget migration algorithm. we expect liability budgets to be negative because people usually budget paying *down* liabilities with their income
19:18:09 <chris> anyway migration algo can wait; budget editor needs fixing; I think I'll have got it right soon
19:20:01 <jralls> Got to plan for all reasonable use-cases. CC debt can vary and it's wiser to plan for it than to be surprised.
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19:24:58 <jralls> But I don't see that as germane to 797657. It looks to me like Alex K is paying down a mortgage, so that should have fit with your expectations.
19:26:07 <chris> from my testing too, paying down a mortgage and having budgeted for it leads to an incorrect Diff calculation for liability
19:26:16 <chris> on 3.9
19:26:23 <jralls> OK.
19:27:45 <chris> so I think the topmost commit for https://github.com/christopherlam/gnucash/commits/maint-797659 finally does it right for both current & unreversed budgets
19:28:16 <chris> it's cleaner as well in code
19:28:42 <jralls> Part of the problem is poor decomposition: All of that computation code belongs somewhere else, not in GUI code. If it was properly separated you'd be able to write unit tests.
19:28:59 * chris agree wholeheartedly
19:30:09 <chris> it's also interesting nobody has complained that the budgets only work with the usual toplevel ASSET accounts; budget BANK/AR/AP account types are not counted at all; budget EQUITY is not included in budget report by default
19:30:18 <chris> it's a really smell-fest
19:34:17 <jralls> Plus it's ugly code.
19:38:20 <jralls> It looks to me that the two branches of (gnc_using_unreversed_budgets) are now only a couple of lines. It might be more readable if you have a single switch with tests and the differences in the cases.
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19:39:57 <jralls> Bye!
19:42:08 <orion_> When the landlord assesses rent, it increases my Liabilities:Rent account by $100. What is on the other side of that transaction?
19:44:06 <jralls> That's where it gets interesting. In the co-op book it's obvious, Expenses:Rent. In your own book, your share goes to Expenses::Rent and the roommates' shares go to their A/R accounts.
19:45:27 <jralls> When you pay the landlord you DR Liabilities:Rent and CR Assets:Checking. Then when the roommates pay up you can CR their A/R and DR Assets:Checking.
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19:52:47 <orion_> I see. So a CR/credit to a checking account makes the balance decrease, not increase.
19:53:25 <orion_> (I have the manual handy and am consulting it in real time)
19:53:32 <orion_> It's phenomenal.
19:56:34 <jralls> Right. People get confused because the bank tells them that a credit increases their account balance, but that's because as far as the bank is concerned your account is a liability: It's money they owe you.
20:03:21 <jralls> Incidentally, if you have Liabilities:Rent and you book the expense when the landlord assesses it it's called "accrual accounting" and if you don't and book the expense when you write the check it's called "cash accounting".
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20:11:34 <orion_> jralls, Nice. I've seen those terms on IRS forms. I think I like accrual better.
20:13:27 <jralls> Accrual gives you a more accurate indication of your financial position because it timely recognizes what you owe and what you're owed. It's also more work so households and small businesses generally prefer cash methods.
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20:54:21 <orion_> Thank you for your help, jralls!
20:54:29 <jralls> You're welcome
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21:46:43 <n08l3J> When I am importing bills or invoice. The invoice ID seems to have this added as prefix 
21:46:43 <gncbot> n08l3J: Sent 1 day, 7 hours, and 53 minutes ago: <fell> How about marking them inactive and later reuse by overwriting them?
21:48:19 <n08l3J> hm.. it looks like this is UTF-8 byte order mark. I was saving the csv from excel, what encoding should I use that this doesn't show up on import?
21:54:12 <n08l3J> Thanks fell
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