2020-03-27 GnuCash IRC logs

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12:10:08 <gjanssens> .
12:10:47 <gjanssens> No notes waiting after more than two weeks hiatus - how cool is that :)
12:11:13 * gjanssens supposes you all kept your questions until he's back ;)
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12:49:20 <jralls> welcome back, gjanssens!
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12:50:59 <jralls> fell, no, I didn't intend to push c++options to code. The git gui program I've been using for years (Atlassian Sourcetree) suddenly decided that it should automatically push on commit in spite of multiple preferences telling it not to.
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12:55:15 <gjanssens> jralls: I saw mention somewhere of the decision to make wrt to 4.0 as c++-options is not ready yet
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12:57:01 <jralls> Yes, jean laroche asked if we were going to go ahead with 4.0 at the end of June. If we're going to we should start the 3.99 releases soon. While I made really good progress this week, I don't yet have a working UI never mind working with Scheme so it's not ready to merge.
12:57:36 <jralls> I guess another 2-3 weeks best-case, 1-2 months more likely.
12:58:07 <jralls> But I'm really bad at guessing how long something like that will take.
12:58:14 <gjanssens> So two possible ways forward - either slip 4.0 to get c++-options ready or stick to the schedule and merge c++-options only for 5.0
12:58:26 <jralls> Right.
12:58:33 <gjanssens> I understand this is very hard to guess
12:59:13 <gjanssens> How would the 4.0 release look without the c++-options ?
12:59:47 <gjanssens> And is there other work waiting for this to finish that we really want in 4.0 ?
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13:03:09 <jralls> There's nothing in particular I want, but there are some open PRs on master.
13:03:58 <gjanssens> Motivations to go ahead and release 4.0 as planned would be a. can drop older build and runtime dependencies, b. simplifying our API (we currently have to keep maint and master APIs in mind)/getting rid of some deprecated code c. current maint and master are starting to diverge in some areas making merging more challenging as we continue d. c++17 as baseline e. cmake 3.10 as baseline,...
13:04:51 <gjanssens> Also it may be worthwile to be able to merge a big refactoring such as c++-options at the beginning of a new development series rather than near the end
13:05:22 <jralls> It might. There's a lot of follow-on that could be built on top of it.
13:05:26 <gjanssens> That gives us more time afterwards to polish and to build on it (like the challenge of storing report options in the book)
13:05:36 <gjanssens> Indeed
13:06:28 <gjanssens> On the other hand as you have spent a huge amount of time on it so far, I am also willing to honor that if you would like to get it in 4.0 anyway and we can do so in a reasonable timeframe
13:07:06 <jralls> Which release series it goes into is secondary as long as it goes in. ;-)
13:07:31 <gjanssens> True :) And preferably in a stable form
13:08:39 <jralls> Stable would be good. I'm comfortable with the app-utils part, I have pretty good test coverage. OTOH anything involving Gtk is largely immune to unit testing.
13:08:50 <gjanssens> True
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13:10:38 <jralls> So let's go ahead and get the master PRs handled, planning on 3.99.0 for the end of April.
13:11:30 <gjanssens> So slipping one more month. Ok.
13:12:01 <gjanssens> Another, slightly related topic:
13:12:29 <jralls> Let's hold off on declaring a slip. I'm not convinced that we get enough user testing to make 3 months of it necessary.
13:12:29 <gjanssens> A small note somewhere not so long ago got me thinking.
13:12:39 <jralls> Uh-oh. ;-)
13:12:43 <gjanssens> :D
13:13:02 <gjanssens> Ok, not calling it slip, we'll see about that.
13:14:02 <gjanssens> On the note - someone said debian and (hence) Ubuntu don't package our minor releases because they are not strictly bugfixes
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13:14:34 <gjanssens> They only package the version that's stable when they roll a new distro but then stop updating.
13:15:09 <gjanssens> I know I have been in favour of adding small improvements and features in new minor releases as well since 3.x
13:15:17 <gjanssens> I wonder now if we should reconsider this.
13:15:29 <jralls> I think Colin Law made that claim but I think it speculative. IMO it's just as likely that Dmitryy doesn't have the bandwidth to do updates.
13:15:54 <gjanssens> Ok. That may also be the case indeed.
13:16:33 <gjanssens> We can only know for sure if we ask him of course. So perhaps I should do that before jumping to conclusions.
13:17:06 <jralls> Absolutely. There's also the matter of do we really care, considering that Ubuntu releases every 6 months anyway.
13:17:56 <gjanssens> I care for their LTS releases which only happen every 2 years.
13:18:51 <gjanssens> They are supported for 5 years, which means if they get stuck on older versions we continue to get the support requests for bugs we fixed a long time ago.
13:19:11 <gjanssens> Of course they will never update to a new major version in one LTS
13:19:51 <gjanssens> But if we could get them to at least update until the most recent gnucash in the major version they initially packaged that would help.
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13:20:18 <gjanssens> So it mainly boils down to reduce our support burden
13:20:37 <jralls> That's reasonable.
13:21:07 <gjanssens> Additionally many other distros are based on Debian and Ubuntu so they all will stick to whatever Ubuntu/Debian will package making this an even bigger issue
13:22:15 <gjanssens> Anyway, we first should understand why newer minor releases aren't finding their way into Ubuntu and Debian
13:22:55 <fell> suallyt hey
13:23:11 <fell> usually they are in deebian testing.
13:24:21 <fell> Peraps Mechtilde knows more about debian's policy.
13:25:10 <gjanssens> I find gnucash 3.8b in backports
13:25:28 <gjanssens> But I would have expected it in updates
13:25:49 <gjanssens> This suggests there's a debian policy preventing normal updates of our package.
13:26:27 <gjanssens> Not everybody is prepared to enable backports as that software is considered less tested or something like that.
13:26:44 <Mechtilde> gjanssens, normally you can't get a new version into Debian stable
13:27:32 <jralls> Mechtilde, do you know what is the policy for updates?
13:27:36 <Mechtilde> to do a new version into stable needs more work with ftp-master to do it
13:27:46 <Mechtilde> jralls, yes
13:28:03 <gjanssens> Ubuntu eoan is stuck at 3.7. 3.8b is only available for focal
13:28:04 <Mechtilde> the policy is no new version, only patches
13:28:21 <Mechtilde> in Ubuntuit is more complicated
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13:29:09 <gjanssens> Mechtilde: just to be clear - only patches is not the same as pure bugfix releases ?
13:29:12 <Mechtilde> because gnucash is in universe. so it don't get any updates
13:29:35 <Mechtilde> you are right
13:29:43 <Mechtilde> it isn#t the same
13:29:51 <Mechtilde> isn't
13:30:33 <Mechtilde> so backports is the right way to provide that version
13:30:50 <gjanssens> In other words you can't have gnucash-3.8.1 (deliberately extending the version here) but you can have 3.8-1 which would be 3.8 with one patch applied
13:30:52 <jralls> Does "only patches" mean that that the packager applies patches to the version in stable (currently 3.4-1) and bumps the -rev (i.e. to 3.4-2)?
13:31:21 <Mechtilde> gjanssens, no
13:31:54 <Mechtilde> you have to patch version 3.4
13:32:24 <Mechtilde> jralls, this is the right way
13:32:30 <gjanssens> Well, my example was bad. Got what you mean.
13:33:43 <gjanssens> Right, so that means debian is staying up to date properly (via backports) also with our current release policy
13:33:56 <Mechtilde> yes
13:34:15 <gjanssens> And for Ubuntu we shouldn't bother because no matter what we do it won't package updates anyway between distro releases
13:34:32 <gjanssens> How are LTS users supposed to get a more recent version of gnucash ?
13:34:48 <gjanssens> If universe is not updated?
13:35:38 <Mechtilde> universe isn't updated
13:35:40 <gjanssens> I can imagine those users are not interested in a new major release but still care about bugfixes
13:35:58 <Mechtilde> Updates are only available via ppa
13:36:05 <gjanssens> Ok
13:36:19 <gjanssens> So it needs a volunteer to maintain such a ppa
13:36:29 <Mechtilde> where you don't know anything about the quality
13:36:52 <gjanssens> Or a flatpak or snap I suppose as alternative delivery mechanisms
13:36:55 <Mechtilde> Debian has also a policy for backports
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13:37:12 <Mechtilde> ubuntu don't have a policy for ppa
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13:40:24 <gjanssens> Thanks for clearing that up Mechtilde
13:42:02 <gjanssens> Got to leave for a bit
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14:27:36 <jralls> fell, For the list of fully translated languages in the Guide's Overview chapter, what counts as fully translated? On http://translationproject.org/domain/gnucash.html the color for just-less-than-perfect goes down to ~80% which seems a bit low.
14:28:35 <fell> Good question
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14:29:40 <fell> Do you want to update the list in the release process?
14:31:10 <jralls> Someone added checking translation mistakes to the procedure and that page includes checking the list. I don't know that I want to do it every time but it looks like it has gotten seriously outdated.
14:43:10 <jralls> ATM Croatian, German, Hebrew, Portuguese, Spanish, and Ukranian are >90%; Catalan, Dutch, Japanese, Latvian, Russian, Serb, and Turkish are >80%. That doesn't count fuzzies.
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14:44:38 <fell> did youu merge a fresh pot before?
14:46:31 <jralls> Nope.
14:47:37 <jralls> Should I as part of the release or will that mess up the TP?
14:47:46 <fell> As you already have this number, you could change the para to As of version there are * >90%: ...; * >80%: ...; and x more.
14:48:54 <fell> AFAIK TP will not update their po's from ours.
14:49:54 <fell> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Translation#When_to_msgmerge
14:50:20 <fell> My collection of thoughts about it.
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14:53:09 <jralls> I think it's probably up to individual translators whether they update from our po files. In the strict sense they shouldn't have to, but we do global changes like your removing spaces around "->" last January.
14:53:45 <fell> Perhaps a note for Benno?
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14:56:27 <jralls> I had that discussion with him a few months ago. I have mentioned changes like that when I send him the link to the release. He said he ignores it, it's not part of his process.
14:56:38 <fell> also the removing of trailing colons
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15:08:01 <jralls> Merging the latest pot doesn't change the rankings any but it does increase the fuzzies. Should I commit it?
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15:09:26 <fell> You can. OTOH I want to fix a few issues, which I saw last night.
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15:10:34 <fell> I have added https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Translation#Updating_Message_Catalogs
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15:11:33 <jralls> BTW you have just 1 fuzzy in the German po. Want to fix it before tomorrow so that it's perfect?
15:12:10 <fell> I did not translate the intro of the online banking assistant. It is so HBCI specific.
15:12:49 <fell> jralls, can you tell me the basic requirements for direct OFX.
15:13:37 <jralls> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Setting_up_OFXDirectConnect
15:13:50 <fell> Ah, thanks
15:14:20 <jralls> Though it's not really up to date the basics haven't changed. The main problem is fewer banks support it every year.
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15:37:27 <gjanssens> jralls: while in Indonesia I had a bit of time to read a few additional chapters in Professional CMake
15:37:54 <gjanssens> My attention was caught by a section on using keywords for function parameters
15:37:55 <jralls> How relaxing. ;-)
15:38:03 <gjanssens> :D
15:39:04 <gjanssens> So I did a few experiments with this for our custom functions that have optional parameters.
15:39:21 <gjanssens> Without keywords this is a bit clumsy and easy to make mistakes
15:39:38 <gjanssens> With keywords I feel the intent is much clearer
15:40:05 <jralls> Yes, keyword paramaters is a popular feature in some scripting languages.
15:40:17 <gjanssens> If you're interested you can see my work so far here: https://github.com/gjanssens/gnucash/tree/cmake_keyword_parameters
15:40:47 <gjanssens> The functions calls get a bit more verbose but I like it anyway
15:41:38 <gjanssens> I'd only implement this for functions that take optional parameters at this point or where we pass a "TRUE/FALSE" value.
15:43:06 <gjanssens> Replacing those with a keyword makes it much easier to understand what the boolean stands for at the call site (like the MAKE_LINKS keyword in gnc_add_scheme_targets)
15:45:01 <jralls> Yes, no need to sell that. It's helpful any time a function has more than 3 or 4 parameters.
15:45:26 <gjanssens> In all it was a nicely isolated excercise to practice with that specific cmake feature :)
15:45:36 <gjanssens> Something I could do without network access.
15:46:17 <gjanssens> Ok, just wanted to be sure you think this is a good idea as well.
15:46:22 <gjanssens> I'll push to master then.
15:47:04 <jralls> It's just too bad that the cmake devs couldn't come up with a less ugly syntax.
15:47:31 <gjanssens> Yes, I have to agree to that :(
15:47:44 <gjanssens> It's nice on the call site, but ugly to code inside the function
15:47:54 <jralls> Oh, you might want to merge maint up first if you're going to put it in master. I made some changes in maint to get tests working on Xcode for jean laroche.
15:48:34 <gjanssens> Ok, though that will be for tomorrow then. I'm still jetlagged and almost ready to go to bed
15:49:00 <jralls> If you wait til Sunday I'll have done the post-release merge.
15:49:17 <gjanssens> That's fine as well
15:50:00 <gjanssens> Out of curiosity, until what time are you usually reachable on irc ? I'm up awefully early recently, so I may catch you in my the morning (your evening) rather than the other way around :)
15:50:40 <jralls> Is Europe on DST yet?
15:50:53 <gjanssens> We will be upcoming sunday
15:51:05 <gjanssens> So the day after tomorrow
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15:52:19 <jralls> OK, so I'm usually here until 5PM, which is 2AM CEST, on days when I cook dinner (Tues, Fri, Sun) and to 6PM when Vicki does.
15:53:38 <gjanssens> Heh, in that case I won't catch you in the morning. I'm currently awake around 5AM CET, soon to be 6AM CEST
15:53:54 <gjanssens> We"ll just stick with my evening schedule then :)
15:54:15 <jralls> Well, I'm not on IRC in my evening but I usually check email.
15:55:23 <gjanssens> Right. There's nothing in particular that needs attention on these hours. I was just curious as my current day/night rhythm has shifted with a few hours.
15:55:44 <jralls> I guess since we have nickserv and chanserv now there's no need to be permanently camped out on the channel. I should get in the habit of closing the app when I'm not here.
15:56:36 <gjanssens> True. I only shut down the PC in the evening. I usually don't do status updates during the day.
15:56:59 <gjanssens> Unless I'm in the middle of a conversation
15:58:26 <jralls> I don't shut down the computer. There's too much putting things away and getting them started back up overhead. I just let it sleep, but it wakes up every couple of hours for cron jobs and that wakes up the IRC client and spams the channel.
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15:59:00 <jralls> So another reason to quit the IRC channel when I'm not in front of it.
15:59:31 <gjanssens> chris: just a heads up - after I merge my keyword function parameter branch the way to add new scheme targets or tests will be different. There will be plenty of examples around, but if you add targets on maint keep in mind these will require conversion in the merge to master.
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16:00:47 <gjanssens> jralls: I have learned to not talk to you on irc before I the first mail or irc message from you ;)
16:00:52 <jralls> chris: Or get them committed and pushed now so that gjanssens has to when he merges his branch! ;-)
16:01:04 <gjanssens> :P
16:01:13 <gjanssens> Time to leave for today.
16:01:16 <gjanssens> See you later!
16:01:22 <jralls> Good night!
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20:31:33 <fell> jralls: your opinion on https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash-docs/pull/129?
20:31:56 <fell> I got no answer from DiMan in 2 month.
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20:54:41 <fell> committed.
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21:43:10 <chris> @tell gjanssens thanks - I have no current plans for further .scm tests
21:43:10 <gncbot> chris: The operation succeeded.
21:45:02 <fell> chris: No open PRs?
21:45:15 <chris> my PRs don't have new tests
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23:53:20 <fell> warlord, can you explain me the difference between "Badly formed URL %s", "Bad URL: %s", "Bad URL %s"?
23:53:46 <fell> in gnucash/gnome/business-urls.c