2020-02-18 GnuCash IRC logs
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01:32:49 <jitspoe> Why does gnucash take so long to open?
01:35:01 <jitspoe> Like... over a minute. I have hardly any data in there.
01:41:10 <Mechtilde> do you use the xml backend, jitspoe ?
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01:57:33 <jitspoe> If that's the default, probably. As bad as XML is, though, it shouldn't take a minute :)
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02:32:03 <gjanssens> .
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03:19:01 <chris> gjanssens: I'm guessing you super busy in this time of day? We could have a brief high-level planning overview otherwise?
03:19:47 <chris> jitspoe: lots of modules in gnucash code base, but usually shouldn't take >1minute... the splash screen gives a reasonably useful progress
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03:21:05 <chris> I think master could be progressed a few steps forward e.g. budget-sign-fixing, eradicate-jqplot, book-accounting-period
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03:24:20 <gjanssens> chris: shoot
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03:26:19 <jitspoe> It takes like a minute before the splash screen even comes up, then a bit beyond that.
03:29:55 <chris> gjanssens: from my POV nothing major is planned -- but I think the above cleanups are very much possible right now
03:30:08 <chris> budget-scrubbing is the sticking point for now
03:30:48 <chris> jitspoe: this is not common. depends on your OS, permissions, network paths, etc.
03:33:08 <gjanssens> chris: as I only in and out gnucash internals occasionally these days, can you help me refresh my memory ?
03:33:20 <gjanssens> Where are we with the budget-sign-fixing ?
03:33:32 <gjanssens> Is the maint part done ?
03:33:48 <gjanssens> And what's holding back the master part ?
03:33:51 <chris> 1) budget-signs-scrubbing is pending in master. maint's part is done.
03:34:18 <gjanssens> Ok, does it need review then
03:34:48 * gjanssens is currently trying to wrap his head around jralls' new option code
03:34:52 <chris> 1a) it relies on heuristics to guess the sign-reversal preference, with a strong bias towards 'credit-accounts'. if it gets it wrong, the consequence is merely a broken budget.
03:35:14 <chris> aha looking forward to figuring out how c++ options work eventually :P
03:36:16 <chris> 2) jqplot I think can be removed, as well as majority of html-???chart.scm code -- only the renderer can be left; it calls html-chart instead now.
03:36:36 <chris> 3) store accounting-period in book rather than global. ready?
03:38:40 <gjanssens> For jqplot, we deprecated the api on maint already, right ?
03:39:38 <gjanssens> If so, I'm ok with removing jqplot and the html-???chart code
03:39:45 <chris> no. maint still uses jqplot exclusively. in master, the api can be removed because it's now shadow-mapped to html-chart functions.
03:39:58 <chris> correction: API stays, just the code
03:40:03 <chris> correction: API stays, the code can go
03:41:16 <gjanssens> Wasthe html-???chart.scm code used directly in reports ?
03:43:00 <chris> yes. actually I think only jqplot can go; the code must stay for now but must be deprecated in master.
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03:43:36 <gjanssens> Agreed
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04:02:53 <jitspoe> chris: Windows 8.1. Nothing else is this slow. It's a gaming/development rig, so it's not like a budget machine or anything.
04:04:36 <chris> jitspoe: mine Windows 10 shows spash in <10s. all I can report.
04:05:09 <jitspoe> Pretty heavy disk access on launch. Guess it's reading a lot of ... something. Not sure what.
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04:32:20 <gjanssens> chris: I'm looking at the book accounting period PR now
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04:38:10 <gjanssens> The code looks fine on its own
04:38:40 <gjanssens> I'm trying to estimate the user experience though
04:39:18 <gjanssens> There are now two places where we store accounting period - in book and global
04:40:03 <gjanssens> As I suggested on the PR before, think it would make sense to keep only one in the long run
04:40:28 <gjanssens> Which means we should actively guide users to migrate
04:58:04 <gjanssens> And while following jralls' lead on fy-end in the PR, I start wondering whether you can't reuse the book's fy-end property for the custom date option rather than replacing it.
05:14:20 <chris> it could probably be reused. I'm not sure however how it's stored.
05:17:47 <gjanssens> That's managed by the qofbook code.
05:18:22 <gjanssens> Digging deeper it may be wise to defer this until jralls is done with c++ options
05:19:02 <chris> agree
05:19:15 <gjanssens> The code is currently spread heavily over c and guile
05:19:42 <chris> on another note, I wonder if you find the (ice-9 match) syntax easy to understand? It's practically a different language
05:20:36 <gjanssens> No it's not easy to understand unfortunately. It would be helpful if there's a link somewhere to the ice-9 match documentation
05:20:37 <chris> it makes things much more compact
05:20:46 <gjanssens> I have to search for it each time again
05:21:23 <chris> Ok. http://ceaude.twoticketsplease.de/articles/an-introduction-to-lispy-pattern-matching.html is a good tutorial. I'll annotate the *next* ice-9 transformation for your perusal in the commit msg.
05:22:16 <gjanssens> Can you find a page in our wiki to add the link to as well ? A page on guile development or something similar
05:22:47 <chris> sure. i'll annotate my pending html-chart ice-9 match commit message.
05:35:10 <gjanssens> Good
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06:30:01 <chris> oh didn't see your query earlier: budget-signs-fix in master: "Ok, does it need review then": probably yes, it's me attempting C.
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08:54:58 <nhl> hi, I have a question about posting transactions in GNUCash. Specifically, it appears that I can only post for a date, is there an option to enable a transaction time as well? Thank you.
08:55:27 <warlord> nhl, no, we do not have Time of Day posting.
08:55:48 <nhl> Thank you for replying. I appreciate that.
08:55:58 <warlord> you're welcome.
08:56:06 <warlord> Curious, why do you think you want ToD recording?
09:04:51 <nhl> I think I need it to be able to more clearly track finance movements. I may be using the system entireley wrong, and not for what it is supposed to do, but if I know certain variable incomes only arrive at a specific time of day, and I want to be able to expense them straight away, on the same day. I would be using this with one time scheduled transactions.
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09:05:26 <nhl> If the income doesnt come in, I can chase it.
09:06:44 <nhl> If it does come in, I can transfer it to asset, then expense part or all of it.
09:07:31 <nhl> My terminology is that of a newbie. I am afraid. Apologies if I am not explaining myself correctly. Please let me know if you don't understand what I'm talking about and I can go into a real world scenario.
09:08:13 <chris> nhl: you're confounding the keeping of books as a legal record of your business/personal activity, and as a legal record of bank movements.
09:08:17 <warlord> I think I understand, but in general (especially when dealing with a financial institution), the Time of Day doesn't really matter. When you get a bank statement, for example, it doesn't tell you what time a particular transaction cleared the account.
09:09:21 <chris> nhl: most people keep books to signify their *intention* - I receive funds from employer, send funds to retailers. The time of day is not very useful here.
09:10:02 <chris> If/when the bank shows money has arrived, or an invoice or bill has been paid, are two different meanings
09:10:20 <nhl> Yes I am Chris, that makes sense now you say it. LikeI said, I may be using the system entireley wrong. I am looking for something more transactional then.
09:10:21 <chris> *correction: if/when the bank shows money has arrived, or an invoice or bill has been paid, are another issue
09:10:58 <chris> nhl: no probs. keeping books is still super important, so, you'll get used to it soon!
09:11:05 <nhl> I see, it is logging intention to give a higher level view of the consition as expected, rather than the condition as it is.
09:11:17 <nhl> consition -> condition
09:11:45 <chris> and from time to time, you try reconcile the two intentions by running Reconciliation tool :)
09:12:18 <warlord> nhl, you can use the cleared/reconciled flags to denote that the transaction actually occured.
09:12:53 <nhl> I wonder if you, with your experience, may be able to direct me to something that could help me with my transactional requirements. I will otherwise have to fall back to Excel spreadsheets, which I thought I could have used GNUCash for.
09:12:59 <warlord> i.e., you enter the intention of the transaction. Then "clear" it when you know the transaction actually happened. Then you "reconcile" with the financial statement at the end of the e.g. month.
09:13:22 <nhl> Thet's the n/c status of the line item?
09:13:23 <chris> nhl: erm. your bank webpage?
09:13:32 <warlord> nhl, could you give an actual real-world scenario where you (think you) need transactional requirements like this?
09:13:47 <warlord> nhl, yes, n/c/y (y is after you reconcile)
09:14:16 <nhl> warlord, yes I can give a real world example. It'll take a few moments to type it up.
09:14:22 <chris> if you're tracking funds received from customer, then you'll want to use gnucash's business features... if you're tracking funds from a fixed-payment employer, I suggest using your bank app.
09:18:34 <nhl> It's to do with gambling. Are you still interested? I have had some pushback from other people I have asked in the past. I am attempting to track Bets and Winnings as Expenses and Income.
09:19:30 <warlord> And the time of day actually matters?
09:19:33 <nhl> The real world scenario is. I have a dedicated bank account with a small fund I use for enjoyment. I must deposit into the Broker's account an amount of money. So I have set that and my bank account as asset accounts. I can then see that I have 100 in Bank account, I transfer 10 to Broker account. Now -10 to Bank account.
09:20:24 <warlord> I should note that gnucash does use the order-of-trasaction-entry (which includes a timestamp) in its default sort-order algorithm.
09:20:36 <nhl> I then place a bet from the broker account to an expense account I call Broker Account Bets. and the money goes from the broker account, let's say 5 into the broker bet account.
09:21:03 <nhl> If I loose, that's where it stops. My asset is down 5, I have 90 in bank, 5 in broker and a 5 expense.
09:21:56 <nhl> If I win, I have a third broker account in GNUCash under income, called Broker Winnings. I post for example 7.50 from that into the Broker account to indicate the winnings.
09:22:32 <warlord> okay, so far I dont see where you need a ToD field.
09:22:56 <nhl> I am now up 2.50 overall. my assets are now 102.50 12.50 in broker bank account and 90 in bank account.
09:24:05 <nhl> The Tod Comes in, if they then provide an offer. Such as a £5 free bet. This is something that gets paid in as winnings, but must be used before an expiry date. Often these free bets don't appear and have to be chased, because they can only be used on a specific event by a specific time.
09:25:50 <nhl> i.e. the first bet settles at 09:00, the free bet should appear as winnings but must be expensed on an event that happens at 11:00. I would set a scheduled transaction of 5 free bet in winnings account to broker account at 09:00 and if I could not reconcile the accounts at 09:05 then I would get in touch with the broker to figure out what happened.
09:26:55 <nhl> I am very new to double entry and I feel that it would help me make sense of these transactions and to be honest its actually good fun too. But I'm struggeling because if the 'post date' for the free bet is the whole day, I actually don't get it because I wasnt able to use it...
09:28:26 <nhl> Perhaps a fourth income account called Broker free bets could be used and I could create a scheduled transaction for the day it is supposed to happen and use a nore in teh description for the time of day to simplify the view of the accounts... unless you have another suggestion?
09:28:45 <nhl> does any of that make sense warlord?
09:28:48 <warlord> Okay, I follow your path, but it sounds like you need a "timeout" and not a "time-of-posting"..
09:29:36 <warlord> You don't need a ToD for most of that to occur. GnuCash orders transactions by Post Date and then the Transaction Creation Timestamp. So you can order your transactions within a day by entering them in order.
09:30:13 <nhl> Incidentally, I post my real-day to day account as a liabillity, into the betting bacnk account. so I can see overall profit /loss and where it has happened on the balance sheet. It looks great.
09:30:15 <warlord> For your transactions that "expire", you could use a different field, like the Action, Memo, Description, or even Notes to mark its expiry time.
09:30:38 <nhl> I like that idea "For your transactions that "expire", you could use a different field, like the Action, Memo, Description, or even Notes to mark its expiry time."
09:31:32 <nhl> I think I'll have a play with that. thanks.
09:31:42 <nhl> Another question, It is possibel to repair an incorrect input? "GnuCash orders transactions by Post Date and then the Transaction Creation Timestamp" to go back and correct the sequence if I've noticed an error.
09:31:48 <nhl> Or do I need to start over?
09:31:49 <warlord> You can use the cleared flag to denote it actually hit your account.
09:32:10 <nhl> I love this cleared flag. Ill be using that.
09:32:37 <warlord> You need to start over.. But you can do that by using the "Duplicate Transaction" feature to duplicate them in the right order and then delete the older ones that are in the wrong order.
09:33:44 <chris> I bet warlord never imagined gnucash would be used in this manner :-/
09:33:52 <nhl> hmm. I think I'll also be using the notes/description extensively. Often a bet is placed in an account on a day, on an event happening later that day.
09:34:12 <warlord> chris, not specifically, but the goal *was* (and *is*) a generic tool that would apply to many (most?) use cases.
09:34:41 <chris> most(*)... for most values of "most"
09:34:46 <nhl> "I bet warlord never imagined gnucash would be used in this manner" is it completely wrong? I feel like I should probably look at an alternative and just use it to manage my small business and personal expenses, counting this whole thing as a liabillity/expense on my personal books.
09:35:13 <warlord> nhl, that is, of course, another option.
09:35:28 <warlord> note that my first suggestion was "excel spreadsheet" ;)
09:35:34 <warlord> BIAB
09:35:39 <nhl> :) I'm glad I'm stretching the boundaries :)
09:35:45 <chris> nhl: not wrong per se, but no built-in tools to organise your transactions that way
09:35:57 <nhl> BIAB?
09:36:07 <chris> back in a bit
09:36:17 <nhl> Lol
09:36:26 <nhl> it's been a chile since i used IRC
09:37:10 <chris> if you realllly wanted to, you could extend by setting your own fields, and writing your own reports, but expect only pointers and direction from us, not actual code
09:37:20 <nhl> I love the reports from GNUCash though. Absolutely love the clarity of this. It's so much friendlier than other solutions I've played.
09:37:59 <nhl> It's all on git in code.gnucash.org isn't it?
09:38:25 <chris> yw and feel free to file *reasonable* *accounting* (cf. betting) enhancements/bugs
09:38:31 <chris> and on github.com/gnucash/gnucash
09:38:59 <nhl> whats the source written in? I've got very limited experience in delphi, python...
09:39:16 <chris> C+CPP+guile
09:39:52 <nhl> I'll have a look at developer documentation and see what IDE is reccomended.
09:40:05 <nhl> But to be honest, I think It'll be over my head :D
09:40:45 <nhl> I'm in https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Development now, lol... BIAB
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09:58:02 <warlord> back.
09:58:22 <warlord> nhl, It's mostly in C and C++. About 15% is in Guile (a scheme dialect).
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11:10:36 <warlord> Well.. That was fun!
11:10:41 <warlord> (X crashed)
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12:30:19 <nhl> back.
12:31:08 <nhl> It's too much for me right now. Perhaps I'll use as is and see what happens, I'll add a second tool to manage time. Thank you all for your help today. Good luck!
12:32:12 <warlord> nhl, and good luck to you, too.
12:32:15 <warlord> happy Gnucashing!
12:32:51 <nhl> Cheers, tata for now!
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14:47:19 <galbarm> Hello, just wanted to let you know I wrote a migration tool from YNAB4 to GnuCash
14:47:47 <galbarm> The exported QIFs from YNAB4 can't be properly imported in GnuCash, so I wrote a tool to fix them
14:47:48 <galbarm> https://github.com/galbarm/YNAB4toGnuCashMigrationTool
14:48:06 <warlord> galbarm, feel free to mention this on the Wiki
14:48:14 <warlord> or the email list
14:48:33 <galbarm> (y)
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14:55:56 <jralls> @tell gjanssens I'm disappointed you're having trouble undertanding gnc-option. I'd hoped that it would be pretty straightforward. Have I gone too far with templates and variants?
14:55:56 <gncbot> jralls: The operation succeeded.
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17:15:45 <fell> jitspoe, perhaps the https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Tracefile can give you a clue.
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