2019-11-24 GnuCash IRC logs

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03:26:49 <gjanssens> @nick gncbot
03:26:49 <gncbot`> gjanssens: Error: You don't have the admin capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified.
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03:27:42 <gjanssens> .
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04:57:08 <gjanssens> jralls: I'm at a point on my branch where I have eliminated all use of gnc:module-load from scheme
04:58:05 <gjanssens> It has all been replaced with direct calls to (use-modules (gnucash <guile-module>)) to load the respective scheme interfaces rather than gnc-modules.
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04:59:20 <gjanssens> I'm very much inclined to completely eliminate the gnc-module wrapper code to force scheme code writers to drop gnc-module use from their custom code as well.
04:59:50 <gjanssens> That of course would break custom scheme code not managed by gnucash.
05:00:05 <gjanssens> I can emit a deprecation warning to inform users.
05:01:01 <gjanssens> If we really want to keep a longer transition path, we could keep the code around and only deprecate it.
05:01:23 <gjanssens> However with the next steps in my gnc-module branch the code will break anyway:
05:02:11 <gjanssens> the modules gncmod-engine and gncmod-app-utils are about to be removed completely (only keeping a libgnc-engine and libgnc-app-utils)
05:03:01 <gjanssens> So even if we keep the scheme gnc:module-load function, the custom code could fail because gncmod-app-utils is one of the frequently loaded modules...
05:03:21 <gjanssens> And for the C api we don't bother with deprecation yet as it's not stable enough.
05:04:00 <gjanssens> Hence my proposal to drop the gnc-module wrapper completely, leaving only a deprecation message in place guiding users to a (manual) fix.
05:04:05 <gjanssens> Thoughts ?
05:04:43 <gjanssens> chris, fell, warlord: I'm interested in your opinions too ^
05:16:35 <chris> so it means for any .scm to work, it must be distributed within gnucash? for me no probs; for newbie report writers they need a sandbox
05:17:21 <chris> if it means it's easier to create guile bindings so that we can run .scm outside UI, I'm all for it
05:17:47 <chris> otherwise I don't really know these internals at all
05:18:57 <fell> It needs documentation, e.g. in https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Custom_Reports
05:19:19 <fell> It is meant for 4.0?
05:27:15 <fell> Let's assume, I have a shiny custom report. What will I have to change to get it working again?
05:28:00 <fell> Can it be done by a simple sed command?
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06:14:27 <warlord> For 4.0, I am fine with either approach. Although I think it is important to still allow a third-party to load a new module that will hook into GnuCash, however I am fine with GnuCash itself not using that interface.
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06:45:16 <chris> gjannsens I think you've no objection to apply 797506 to maint asap?
06:45:36 <chris> gjanssens I think you've no objection to apply 797506 to maint asap?
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07:00:51 <fell> Warlord: Why is spamassasin blocking Mails with attached zipped account templates?
07:01:55 <warlord> Umm.. dunno. Probably because zip is a virus propagation technique?
07:02:11 <warlord> Send a tar.gz instead?
07:02:18 <warlord> Or use a PR?
07:03:35 <fell> Hm, we have several places in the wiki, where we write, send the zipped file to the ML.
07:04:59 <fell> And we can not expect from non tech contributors , to learn all the git stuff.
07:05:14 <warlord> I don't have anything special on code that blocks zip.
07:05:48 <fell> Imagine a CPA improves an account template.
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07:06:53 <fell> spamassassin is running with the default conf?
07:08:00 <warlord> I take it back.. I have this in /etc/postfix/header_checks:
07:08:06 <warlord> /^Content-(Type|Disposition):.*(file)?name=.*\.(asd|bat|chm|cmd|com|cpl|dll|exe|hlp|hta|js|jse|lnk|ocx|pif|rar|scr|shb|shm|shs|vb|vbe|vbs|vbx|vxd|wsf|wsh|zip)/REJECT Sorry, we do not accept .${3} file types.
07:09:00 <warlord> At what level is the message being blocked?
07:09:13 <fell> But I could send the same "Virus" as tgz.
07:12:38 <fell> 550 5.7.1 Blocked by SpamAssassin
07:12:56 <fell> You got it forwarded by me
07:17:44 <warlord> fell, okay, then its not that header_check firing.
07:17:52 <warlord> I gotta run -- be back late tonight.
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08:56:40 <gjanssens> Ok, I'm back.
08:56:58 <gjanssens> Let me reply to the questions more or less in order of appearance
08:57:10 <gjanssens> chris: "so it means for any .scm to work, it must be distributed within gnucash"
08:57:13 <gjanssens> Not at all
08:57:43 <gjanssens> It only means you no longer depend on gnc:module to expose the gnucash code to guile
08:58:17 <gjanssens> So rather than calling (gnc:module-load "gnucash/app-utils"), you call (use-modules (gnucash app-utils))
08:58:39 <gjanssens> The latter will load app-utils.scm, which exposes all app-utils features to scm
08:59:10 <gjanssens> I'm mainly removing an intermediary step.
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09:00:01 <gjanssens> The one "feature" that disappears with this is that each gnc:module module would take care of loading its own dependencies.
09:00:23 <gjanssens> That feature is actually causing more trouble than benefit so it's not a great loss
09:01:08 <gjanssens> For example, if you loaded app-utils via gnc-module, it would automatically also load engine.
09:01:47 <gjanssens> After the removal of the gnc-module wrappers, you now have to explicitly load the (scheme) engine module if you want to use engine functions
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09:03:24 <gjanssens> But frankly, if you haven't been taught before to use the gnc:module-load stuff, I think it actually should become easier to write custom scheme code rather than more difficult
09:04:07 <gjanssens> The reason is that our scheme api is now much more consistent: if you want to use the engine code, well, load the engine module. If you need app-utils, well load app-utils
09:04:21 <gjanssens> But always via guile's own (use-modules ...) function.
09:04:48 <gjanssens> Before you had to know that in some cases you should use (use-modules ...) and in other cases you should use (gnc:module-load ...)
09:13:13 <gjanssens> fell: "It is meant for 4.0?"
09:13:15 <gjanssens> yes
09:13:30 <gjanssens> fell: "It needs documentation, e.g. in https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Custom_Reports"
09:14:04 <gjanssens> I glanced over this page and there is no explanation about gnc-module vs use-modules whatsoever
09:14:20 <gjanssens> The page only shows default headers and assumes the user just copies them
09:14:43 <gjanssens> The new default header in 4.0 will change slightly, but not much
09:14:57 <gjanssens> fell: "Let's assume, I have a shiny custom report. What will I have to change to get it working again?"
09:14:59 <gjanssens> Yes
09:15:11 <gjanssens> fell: "Can it be done by a simple sed command?"
09:15:12 <gjanssens> No
09:15:58 <gjanssens> The reason it can't be done with a simple sed command is that which scheme modules to add depends on what functions are used in the report
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09:16:24 <gjanssens> There are a few fairly straightforward guidelines though:
09:16:47 <gjanssens> "gnucash/report" gnc-module will be replaced with (gnucash report) scm module
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09:17:38 <gjanssens> Similarly "gnucash/app-utils" -> (gnucash app-utils), "gnucash/engine" -> (gnucash engine), "gnucash/html" -> (gnucash html)
09:18:05 <gjanssens> So these could be replaced with a simple sed command
09:19:24 <gjanssens> But as "gnucash/report" also loaded "gnucash/engine" and "gnucash/app-utils" by default, it may be the report was using functions from these two modules whithout explicitly loading the (gnucash engine) and/or (gnucash app-utils) scheme modules
09:19:52 <gjanssens> So in those cases, an extra (use-modules ...) line or two needs to be added.
09:20:11 <gjanssens> I suppose if you want to be on the safe side you could take this rule of thumb:
09:20:59 <gjanssens> any line (gnc:module-load "gnucash/<modname>" 0) should be replaced with the equivalent (use-modules (gnucash <modname>))
09:21:26 <gjanssens> The <modname> bit maps in all cases I have encountered.
09:22:06 <gjanssens> And in addition to that, if you by default add (use-modules (gnucash engine)) and (use-modules (gnucash app-utils)) that should cover 90% of the report usage.
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09:23:07 <gjanssens> Yet another side remark however - some reports used a special (gnc-module-begin-syntax (gnc:module-load (...)) construct or an (eval when ... (gnc:module-load ...)) construct
09:23:21 <gjanssens> These whole constructs should be replaced rather than only the gnc:module-load bit.
09:23:47 <gjanssens> That's what makes it tricky to have a single sed command fix this.
09:24:21 <gjanssens> warlord: "... Although I think it is important to still allow a third-party to load a new module that will hook into GnuCash, however I am fine with GnuCash itself not using that interface."
09:25:24 <gjanssens> I'm not removing the complete interface. gnc-module as a feature remains to load C based extra functionality. What I want to remove at this point is the guile wrapper around it as I don't think it adds any benefit.
09:25:54 <gjanssens> So after my proposal the options to extend gnucash would be:
09:27:08 <gjanssens> 1. assume you want to write extra code in C only - write the library in C and add a gnc-module interface to it. gnc_module_load should be able to still load this C based library
09:28:26 <gjanssens> 2. assume you want to write extra code in scheme only - write a scheme module (define-module (name)), store it somewhere gnucash can find it and load it via a call to (use-modules (name)) (in config-user.scm)
09:29:32 <gjanssens> 3. suppose you want to write code in C that you want to make use of in scheme - use guile's (load-extension "name" "init-func") functionality.
09:30:04 <gjanssens> I don't see what other extension features we should provide. Of all three there are still examples in our current code base to point at.
09:49:16 <gjanssens> In theory there's a fourth method - writing scheme code to be used by C code. But that would bring us back to writing a C library with a gncmodule interface that could then use ordinary guile C functions to call into the scheme ones
09:49:57 <gjanssens> We still have plenty of that kind of code in gnucash as well, but actually want to gradually phase that out. So I don't think we actively need to support it.
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10:01:02 <chris> sounds like a no brainer then
10:03:10 <fell> How about adding now a deprecation warning in maint?
10:17:59 <chris> fell this would cause undue warning for pretty much every .scm file currently in use
10:19:05 <chris> if this change makes the module system more consistent then I'm all for it. I never figured out the gnc:module-load mechanism. copy-and-paste was my approach.
10:19:57 <chris> I think an email to -devel would suffice to keep interested parties informed
10:21:50 <chris> as an interested party, I know I'll need to avoid adding more .scm into codebase; modifying them is acceptable though
10:22:18 <chris> the only additional .scm I may create are tests for reports especially my complex ones
10:31:58 <chris> gjanssens as a final note, it would seem (use-modules (gnucash <modname>)) could/should be named (use-modules (libgnucash <modname>))
10:32:08 <chris> I don't think this is feasible though isn't it
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10:39:44 <fell> Isn't a module always part of a lib?
10:39:55 <gjanssens> chris: no that's not really feasible
10:40:09 <gjanssens> in addition that only makes sense from a source file perspective
10:41:13 <gjanssens> The gnucash scheme modules will end up in guile's site directory as guile modules
10:41:39 <gjanssens> I haven't seen any other guile module that would prepend "lib" to the module name
10:42:24 <chris> true
10:42:33 <gjanssens> libgnucash vs gnucash is something we internally chose to differentiate between the bits we eventually want to distribute as a library and the bits that will consume the library
10:42:53 <gjanssens> "lib" in the C world is just a prefix to a binary to indicate it's a library
10:43:25 <gjanssens> Even using the library would mean adding -lgnucash to the compilation command (the lib is removed and -l means "use library")
10:43:59 <gjanssens> But having said that, I do understand the confusion this may bring
10:44:42 <gjanssens> As for "How about adding now a deprecation warning in maint?"
10:44:48 <gjanssens> I did consider this.
10:45:18 <gjanssens> The problem there is that on maint it's impossible to replace the gnc:module-load calls with use-modules calls
10:45:28 <gjanssens> More changes are needed.
10:45:38 <gjanssens> ...than can be done sanely on maint
10:46:04 <gjanssens> And normally we only add a deprecation warning the moment an alternative is availalbe.
10:46:58 <gjanssens> As the alternative is only first implemented on master, it would cause maint users discomfort and inconvenience generating deprecation messages they can't solve (yet).
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12:38:01 <jralls> gjanssens: Will scheme code that needs modules other than engine and app-utils still need to use gnc:module-load? Or can we assume that since all of the modules are already loaded in inner_main that (use-modules (gnucash foo)) will always work for reports? What about test programs?
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12:45:42 <jralls> gjanssens: re your explanation to chris about (use-modules (gnucash engine)) vs. (gnc:module-load "gnucash/engine" 0) isn't quite right. They're the same only if engine.scm calls (load-extension) on whatever contains the swig wrappers for the engine's API.
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13:41:37 <jralls> gjanssens: Having now looked through your code it seems you thought of all that and have made the necessary changes to the foo.scm for swigged libraries, so never mind.
13:52:45 <jralls> gjanssens: Since it's not practical to deprecate gnc:module-load in 3.x maybe we should provide a function that extracts the module name, calls (use-modules) on it, and prints a warning. The modules that had dependencies loaded for them by the old (gnc:module-load) could call (use-modules) on those dependencies so that they needn't be added to client code. That would enable fell's simple grep replacement as well.
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14:18:28 <jralls> gjanssens: gnc:module-begin-syntax is just a wrapper for eval-when. They're mostly used either in test programs meant to run outside of gnucash (and so responsible for loading their C modules) or in master modules (e.g. app-utils.scm) to load the C wrappers for clients. Only two files wrap (gnc:module-load) calls that way, app-utils.scm and gnome/report-menus.scm. I think it extremely unlikely that user code would do that.
14:20:37 <jralls> gjanssens: I meant "provide a gnc:module-load function that extracts...". That would avoid breaking user reports and still let them know that the way of loading API has changed.
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15:35:33 <fell> I just see, recent versions replace <cmdty:space>ISO4217 by CURRENCY, which we used in Version 1. Why that???
15:37:03 <gjanssens> jralls: that sounds like a good plan. I'll look into it.
15:38:17 <gjanssens> fell: I have been working in that area a while ago. I'll have to dig back in to find what happened and why. Will come back to that later.
15:39:27 <fell> I just got new template and was confused about the number of changes.
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15:41:55 <fell> One of my thoughts: with <cmdty:space>ISO4217 we could also create <cmdty:space>user with e.g <cmdty:id>BTC
15:43:20 <jralls> Users can already do that. It makes it a non-currency commodity so one can't have income or expense accounts denominated in it.
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15:46:20 <jralls> fell: Only one file matches cmdty:space.*CURRENCY, data/accounts/de_AT/acctchrt_ekr2017.gnucash-xea.
15:47:18 <fell> Yes, I forgot to compare it with possible ancestors.
15:48:30 <fell> But today I got a new version of de_CH/chkmu and tried to compare it.
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15:57:51 <jralls> Which uses ISO4217. So why did you think we'd changed?
15:58:49 <fell> If I create a new file, it gets stored with
15:58:51 <fell> <act:commodity>
15:58:52 <fell> <cmdty:space>CURRENCY</cmdty:space>
15:58:54 <fell> <cmdty:id>EUR</cmdty:id>
15:58:55 <fell> </act:commodity>
16:01:38 <jralls> Hmmph. Is that with File>Export>Export Accounts?
16:02:03 <fell> File->SAve as...
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16:07:18 <fell> But File->Export->Accounts is almost the same. Only the book section is missing there.
16:08:52 <fell> And File still has EMACS comments at the bottom.
16:14:21 <fell> created in libgnucash/backend/xml/io-utils.cpp:44
16:14:23 <jralls> https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/commit/f3eeda3a9e8e27dc982f070836b63d88ae79a3ed
16:18:41 <jralls> It looks like there should be a predecessor but I don't see it.
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16:53:43 <fell> Warlord, the sender solved the rejection by renaming acctchrt_chkmu19.zip to acctchrt_chkmu19.gz. :-)
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18:47:28 <fell> chris: ERROR <gnc.scm> report.scm error: One of your reports has a report-guid that is a duplicate. Please check the report system, especially your saved reports, for a report with this report-guid: 47f45d7d6d57b68518481c1fc8d4e4ba
18:47:42 <fell> I did not touch any reports.
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19:43:17 <fell> The message appeared on each report while building.
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20:51:16 <warlord> @tell fell Hahaha.. Glad they got it working.
20:51:16 <gncbot> warlord: The operation succeeded.
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