2019-10-20 GnuCash IRC logs

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01:19:54 <chris> jralls heuristics is unfortunately a major pain. I'm quite tempted to assume reversal=credit-accounts only because budget estimates don't run well at all in other reversal policies
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08:16:30 <chris> jralls check latest commit #585 - example heuristics output to determine reversal-pref for each budget. rather complicated!
08:19:16 <chris> it can be simplified I guess to something like 'if majority budget expense -ve then handle as inc/exp; if majority equity is +ve then handle as credit-accounts' but I'm not sure is still correct.
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10:11:29 <chris> gjanssens your bug 780717 is a nice summary of the state of budget-editor. i fully support removing the Transfers total row.
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12:02:42 <jralls> chris, your heuristic routine looks reasonable to me. For simplification you can surely ignore income and asset accounts as they're never reversed. Expense is pretty much a no-brainer: transactions reducing expense are rare, so if ve > 0 reversal is set to income/expense.
12:08:13 <chris> ok using my fake-but-realistic data I used 'estimate' on budget in various sign-reversal prefs but didn't otherwise modify the values
12:08:39 <chris> i'd imagine that inc/exp reversal will never be used because budget editor looks weird
12:09:32 <chris> I'll modify tomorrow and suggest lispy algorithm
12:09:50 <jralls> That's interesting, because I think that income/expense reversal is probably the most commonly used setting. Maybe that's why so many people think that the budgetting module is broken.
12:10:32 * chris always use credit-accounts
12:12:30 <chris> IMO my heuristic is not right about credit-accounts because I don't really know meaning of equity budget amounts
12:14:09 <chris> maybe if majority expenses -ve then 'inc-exp; elseif majority liability -ve then 'none; else 'credit-accounts
12:14:33 <chris> but I wouldn't personally use budget for liability either so I'm not entirely convinced
12:14:42 <jralls> On second look, you're right, reversing expense makes the expense account balances negative. That's probably not what most people want to see.
12:16:35 <jralls> The problem with liability is that there are two models: Credit cards, where one has lots of cr transactions per month and one dr, vs. a longer-term loan where you have one cr ever and a periodic dr.
12:19:51 <jralls> From a budgeting standpoint I'd expect one to budget the long-term loan and ignore the revolving credit (i.e. credit card) account as the revolving credits would be budgeted under the corresponding expense accounts.
12:20:13 <jralls> But I don't know if the estimate function is smart enough to know that.
12:20:49 <chris> I don't think it does
12:21:17 <chris> I'd think most users would tinker until the report looks right, then use them blindly.
12:22:13 <chris> (on that note I think #576 for augmenting the estimator could be applied to maint rather than master anytime)
12:22:29 <chris> budgeting is hard(TM)
12:23:56 <jralls> Yeah, and I don't think the module was thought through very carefully, and not only because of this mess.
12:25:42 <chris> I just think reverse=none shouldn't be very popular, so, it *could* be simplified to "if majority expense negative then inc/exp otherwise credit-accounts"
12:25:50 <chris> and deal with the fallout in 4.1 :)
12:27:02 <chris> the 50-line lispy code will turn into 200-line C too
12:28:33 <chris> gtg now
12:28:41 <jralls> 'night.
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18:05:13 <gggg> Hey there. I figured I'd ask here, because I've noticed a need for it with a bunch of my friends. What does everyone here use to budget?
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18:58:53 <jralls> gggg: Not everyone does. GnuCash has a budget module, but it's not very well documented. There have been a lot of discussions about it in gnucash-user, though. You might look through the list archives at http://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/ or search with site:lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user
19:17:51 <gggg> That's interesting, actually. Thanks a ton for that. I really need to get into GnuCash.
19:18:38 <gggg> Do you have any references for a complete newbie to accounting to get started with gnucash for a small business, jralls? I know two that need it in my area: A local motel and a local general contractor.
19:21:04 <jralls> gggg: That would be a bad idea. It's hard to get into trouble learning accounting as you go if you're keeping personal books, but when bookkeeping for a business it's important to get it right. You can get into serious trouble--as in jail--if you don't. Hire a knowledgeable bookkeeper.
19:21:55 <gggg> Interesting. What if these people are already keeping their own books, and want to make their lives easier with computation?
19:22:15 <jralls> Then they're not newbies to accounting, are they?
19:24:23 <jralls> The best way to start with GnuCash is to read the https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v3/C/gnucash-guide/index.html. There's also a book, https://www.packtpub.com/hardware-and-creative/gnucash-24-small-business-accounting-beginners-guide.
19:25:19 <jralls> The book is a couple of versions out of date, but the basics are still pretty much the same.
19:30:08 <gggg> jralls: I'd consider them newbies, since their book methods are usually just in their head in terms of in and out, and rarely properly take best practices into account.
19:30:31 <gggg> bookkeeping**
19:30:40 <gggg> cash in and cash out**
19:32:38 <jralls> gggg: Make up your mind. Either they're keeping their books or they're winging it. But if they're really not keeping proper accounting records then they're going to get into trouble sooner or later with the tax folks and whatever your jurisdiction does for regulating businesses.
19:34:04 <jralls> In the latter case they're going to need to get professional help to get their records in order and set up their books, there's no way they can learn all of the rules on the fly while actually running their businesses.
19:51:18 <gggg> Good enough answers; I'm not sure why you and I are counterposed, here, because it's really my frustration with the general lack of business sense in almost every small business owner when it comes to actual record keeping.
19:51:48 <gggg> They can absolutely keep books in the sense that they're "winging it." Those aren't mutually exclusive--do you have much experience with small family business owners?
19:52:06 <gggg> I've never met one that had everything together, so I'm surprised that you're adamant about the rigidity of this.
19:53:42 <jralls> Only having been one, but that was after having had an accounting course and a couple of finance courses in college, being a Navy supply officer, a middle-manager at a small corporation, and a developer on GnuCash. Not the normal background. ;-)
19:55:23 <jralls> As for being adamant, it's simple CMA: The right answer for just about any serious business is to hire somebody to do the accounting. The business owner has other things to do and seldom has the training or the time to get it.
19:56:43 <jralls> If I consistently tell people that instead of suggesting ways that they can do the wrong thing I won't get in trouble for giving bad advice. Plus, I'm *not* a licensed accountant so it would be improper for me to give advice.
19:57:43 <jralls> Plus to use GnuCash you really do need to understand at least the basics of formal accounting. Some people can learn it from a book but most need to take a course or two.
19:58:12 <gggg> Truth. Do you have any recommended books?
19:58:55 <gggg> For accounting, that is. I'd like to at least know the details of what everyone does incorrectly, it seems. I've had a suspicion, however, that the "theory and practice" of accounting differ quite a bit, as regulations are a very heavy motivator in business owners's minds.
19:59:17 <gggg> I've always thought that was ludicrous. It should be simple to charge enough to make enough to just pay the damned taxes and stop trying to cut corners.
20:01:14 <jralls> In order to know how much to charge you have to know how much it costs. To pay your taxes you need to know your income and expenses to the penny, and the only way to do that is to keep good records.
20:03:02 <jralls> The accounting trade has worked out a standardized way of doing that that's very reliable. Follow that method and when the tax folks come in and want you to prove that you've paid the right amount it's easy to show them. Do it any other way and you have to teach them your way in order to show them.
20:03:25 <jralls> They find that very irritating and are likely to give you a very hard time.
20:05:55 <jralls> Depending on what kind of jobs the contractor does there might be clients who want a proper accounting of the costs too. With proper books, no problem. Follow your own rules, big problem.
20:06:52 <gggg> That's so interesting. With that in mind, I assume all of the guides that gnucash provides are along the 'proper books' path?
20:09:13 <jralls> GnuCash has only the one Tutorial and Concepts Guide. It's very basic and intended, as is GnuCash itself, for personal use or someone with a little business on the side. But yes, it's all predicated on an amalgam of the US's Generally Accepted Accounting Practices and everyone else's International Accounting Standards.
20:10:21 <gggg> Oh, cool, they have standards. That's actually nice to hear, because I love when information percolates up into actual state-level knowledge bodies.
20:10:26 <jralls> The US and international standards bodies have done a lot of good work in the last 20-30 years to reduce the differences, which used to be pretty big.
20:11:12 <gggg> Also, if I wanted to contribute to gnucash (you probably don't want me to--I understand), would there be any utility if I wanted to help out? Are there open bugs/issues in the tracker for stuff like cleanup, etc?
20:11:55 <jralls> There are over 1000 bugs in the tracker. Are you skilled at C, C++, and/or Scheme?
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22:22:17 <gggg> jralls: I think I could eventually be. I know you're not a free mentor, but how skilled do I need to be, and how should I get to that point?
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