2019-09-23 GnuCash IRC logs
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05:19:54 <fell> gjanssens: Still no windows build:
05:19:56 <fell> the following modules were not built *** [16/16]
05:19:57 <fell> libchipcard aqbanking gnucash-git meta-gnucash-git
05:23:01 <fell> C:/gcdev64/gnucash/maint/src/libchipcard-5.1.3beta/src/lib/client/cards/zkacard/zkacard.c:773:30: error: conflicting types for 'LC_ZkaCard__SeccosSearchRecord'
05:23:02 <fell> 773 | LC_CLIENT_RESULT CHIPCARD_CB LC_ZkaCard__SeccosSearchRecord(LC_CARD *card,
05:23:04 <fell> | ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
05:23:05 <fell> In file included from C:/gcdev64/gnucash/maint/src/libchipcard-5.1.3beta/src/lib/client/cards/zkacard/zkacard_p.h:14,
05:23:07 <fell> from C:/gcdev64/gnucash/maint/src/libchipcard-5.1.3beta/src/lib/client/cards/zkacard/zkacard.c:15:
05:23:08 <fell> C:/gcdev64/gnucash/maint/src/libchipcard-5.1.3beta/src/lib/client/cards/zkacard/zkacard.h:85:18: note: previous declaration of 'LC_ZkaCard__SeccosSearchRecord' was here
05:23:10 <fell> 85 | LC_CLIENT_RESULT LC_ZkaCard__SeccosSearchRecord(LC_CARD *card,
05:23:11 <fell> | ^~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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10:05:28 * chris think the balance-sheet should *not* insert trading-accounts in equity if book->use-trading-accounts is disabled.
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10:39:12 <BenB> Where do I find GnuCash 3.7 packages for Ubuntu 18.04 ? As you know, HBCI stopped working on Sept 14.
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10:53:11 <chris> ubuntu is too slow. try flatpak.
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11:52:54 <BenB> chris, I installed the GnuCash 3.7 package from flathub, but I get the same error when contacting my bank.
11:53:23 <BenB> maybe the required update to aqbanking 5.8.2 is not included in the flatpak? I have no idea how to look into the flatpak contents to check.
11:53:56 <BenB> this is a massive FAIL. I can no longer to banking.
11:54:19 <BenB> I've now spent a few hours trying to update GnuCash (time that I do not have), without success.
11:55:08 <BenB> this was known 6 years in advance, in PSD2 law from 2013. the distrios should have had updates months ago.
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12:01:26 <gjanssens> BenB: GnuCash 3.7 does have aqbanking 5.8.2, but apparently that's not sufficient.
12:01:59 <gjanssens> The AQBanking team is currently hard at work trying to fix this.
12:02:28 <gjanssens> The gnucash nightly flatpaks currently ship with AQBanking 5.99.33beta which has several more fixes
12:04:12 <gjanssens> I can't comment on the FAIL bit. Gnucash is a volunteer project as is the AQBanking project.
12:04:54 <gjanssens> I can't remember any bank ever having offered to help implement the necessary bits to allow aqbanking to comply with the PSD2 regulation.
12:05:24 <gjanssens> I can sympathize with your frustration though
12:14:24 <x42> I managed to intall both betas of aqbanking + gwen. on current gnucash from git i can set up a psd2 account. however if i try to connect an aqbank account with gnucash the connection is not saved in gnucash. when i try to get e.g. the balance i get an error "online action "get balance" not available for this account. if i again go through the online banking setup wizard i can see that the
12:14:27 <x42> former connection between an aqbanking account an the gnucash account is gone. any idea?
12:15:19 <jralls> fell: I forgot to nuke the Libchipcard source directory on maint so my patch didn't apply. I just fixed it and launched a maint build.
12:18:20 <x42> I'm talking about this connection (blue line): https://ibb.co/VxSXZgS
12:18:32 <x42> even after appyling this.
12:18:53 <x42> the blue line is gone after opening the banking setup again
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12:19:16 <x42> so i guess the connection is not saved within gnucash
12:20:06 <x42> btw i'm using the gnucash repository from github .. thats valid, right?
12:21:23 <x42> branch maint
12:21:41 <jralls> x42: Likely theres a change in AQB6 that hasn't been accounted for. The person who is tracking that, Christian Stimming, isn't here. The best place to report it is the gnucash-de mailing list.
12:21:59 <x42> thanks
12:22:20 <x42> should i use the maint or the master branch?
12:22:33 <jralls> And yes, https://github.com/gnucash/gnucash is the right place. You should use the maint branch.
12:22:38 <x42> thanks
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12:26:31 <gjanssens> jralls: are you yourself on gnucash-de ? (I'm not)
12:26:52 <jralls> No, that would be futile indeed!
12:27:03 <gjanssens> Because of the language...
12:27:37 <jralls> Yes. I can count to 10 and know maybe 20 other words of German.
12:28:30 <gjanssens> That's something already...
12:28:46 <jralls> I can usually puzzle out the gist of a sentence because there are so many cognates, but that's far from being able to participate in a conversation.
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12:30:15 <x42> but you think i should report this on gnucash-de righ (language is fine though for me :)
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12:31:52 <jralls> x42: Yes, because that's where you'll find the afore-mentioned Christian who's best placed to figure out what's changed and how to fix it. Since this is about the German FinTS system I'd be surprised if you were affected but not fluent in German.
12:42:20 <x42> true :)
13:18:46 <gjanssens> jralls: coming back to the windows build log not properly interleaving - How does jhbuild behave on MacOS ?
13:19:02 <gjanssens> I mean if you redirect jhbuild's output to a file will that properly interleave ?
13:19:54 <jralls> I've never tried that. Give me a moment...
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13:25:09 <jralls> Yes, they interleave as expected.
13:37:25 <gjanssens> Ok, then it's really an output and error stream behaviour particular to jhbuild on Windows
13:38:01 <gjanssens> Capturing the output of the other commands interleaves fine it seems. Only with jhbuild it insists on not interleaving
13:38:08 <gjanssens> Oh well.
13:38:41 <jralls> Or the behavior of `tee` on MSYS2, or having powershell in the middle.
13:39:36 <jralls> It may have something to do with what goes to stderr and what to stdout, but I'm less sure about that.
13:40:07 <gjanssens> I have tried every possible combination of tee-ing on the windows side or the msys side and it always gave the same result
13:40:23 <gjanssens> I may revisit it at a later time. It's not a blocker.
13:40:46 <gjanssens> OTOH as I wrote yesterday it did result in a few simplifications of the script anyway.
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13:41:25 <gjanssens> If you have a moment, can you pull the master branch from https://github.com/gjanssens/gnucash-on-windows and see if that still works ok on your Windows 10 box ?
13:42:04 <jralls> OK.
13:42:04 <gjanssens> It turns out we can call most msys2 commands straight from the powershell script without using Start-Process or wrapping them in bash.
13:44:00 <gjanssens> Hmm my last build failed the gnucash-git step - swig not found
13:44:22 <gjanssens> I wonder if that's a side effect of my changes
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13:45:40 <gjanssens> Better wait until I have figured that bit out
13:46:05 <jralls> too late.
13:47:07 <jralls> But it's probably because you have an unpatched FindSWIG in /mingw32/share/cmake/Modules
13:48:21 <jralls> or rather /mingw32/share/cmake-3.15/Modules. pacman -Syuu upgrades cmake but doesn't know to apply our patch.
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13:51:21 <gjanssens> I guess that's indeed the most likely
13:51:34 <gjanssens> I'll rerun setup-mingw64.ps1
13:52:22 <jralls> Easier to cd there and patch -p1 < /c/gcdev64/src/gnucash-on-windows.git/patches/FindSWIG.patch
13:53:33 <gjanssens> What version of swig are you currently at on your Windows box ?
13:53:40 <gjanssens> Mine is 4.0
13:55:06 <jralls> The same, of course, since we've both run build_package.ps1 today and it runs pacman -Syuu.
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13:55:56 <gjanssens> Heh, right
14:14:00 <gjanssens> Ok turned out to be a borked build dir. I had removed the srcdir instead.
14:14:08 <gjanssens> SWIG is now found properly
14:14:20 <gjanssens> And the build is running
14:15:19 <jralls> Mine's still building aqbanking, but I see no reason that it would fail at this point.
14:15:54 <gjanssens> Neat
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14:28:48 <gjanssens> The build finished properly and the installer was generated
14:29:33 <gjanssens> Interestingly on my system that installer is only about 150Mb in size whereas the one uploaded to code is 182Mb
14:29:47 <gjanssens> Installed the package and at first sight gnucash runs fine.
14:30:03 <gjanssens> I'm not sure where the 30Mb difference comes from at this point.
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14:31:25 <gjanssens> I didn't tweak any parameters that I know of in gnucash.modules or on the build_package.sh command line
14:31:54 <gjanssens> Oh, jralls I hope you understood from the context my test request was for buildserver\build_package.sh ?
14:32:18 <jralls> Yes, of course, except that it's build_package.ps1. ;-)
14:33:16 <gjanssens> Doh, power of habit...
14:33:27 <gjanssens> It's build_package.sh for the flatpak build
14:33:51 <gjanssens> Do you have a recent installer on your local system to compare file size with ?
14:35:32 <jralls> My most recent is from 17 August, 187,576,177.
14:38:29 <gjanssens> Hmm, that's closer to what's on code as well
14:38:40 <jralls> Mrmmph. I've got a contaminated build tree from trying to build webkit with up-to-date ICU so the build failed.
14:39:14 <gjanssens> :(
14:39:38 <gjanssens> A recent effort ?
14:40:17 <jralls> Yeah, week before last. Didn't work.
14:40:38 <jralls> I expect that's why Alex dropped it, he couldn't get it to build anymore.
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14:43:44 <gjanssens> Too bad
14:44:36 <jralls> It occurred to me that we could use repo.msys2.org to generate a build environment as of just before https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=797283.
14:45:04 <jralls> It would help a lot in the reproducible build department.
14:45:12 <jralls> And might fix the bug.
14:45:21 <gjanssens> Interesting idea
14:47:00 <gjanssens> Does that mean we would have to hand-pick all of our dependencies ?
14:47:51 <jralls> I think so. I don't think there's any way to tell pacman to make a system as of a particular date, but it's enormously complicated and I could easily be wrong.
14:48:11 <jralls> s/complicated/complex/
14:48:34 <jralls> or maybe "complex and complicated".
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14:53:01 <gjanssens> Yeah, I don't immediatly see this either
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15:05:42 <jralls> gjanssens: https://www.ostechnix.com/downgrade-packages-specific-date-arch-linux/
15:08:16 <gjanssens> Ok that works for arch as they keep copies of each repo state. It doesn't look like msys2 is doing this
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15:26:48 <x42> i hear a lot about aqbanking6, but i don't find any repository for aqbanking6 ... is it already useable or adviced to change because of psd2?
15:29:16 <jralls> x42: AQBanking 6 is the upcoming major release of AQBanking. It's currently in development with versions of the form 5.99.xx, the latest of which is 5.99.33beta (unless they did a new one in the last few hours).
15:29:28 <x42> thanks
15:30:12 <x42> i thought they would create a git branch 6.0 but apparently they didn't
15:32:46 <jralls> No, they're working off of master until the release.
15:32:54 <x42> ok
15:34:04 <jralls> gjanssens: build_package finally finished. The setup.exe size is 191778275.
15:34:35 <jralls> Which is 183M with -h.
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15:39:05 <gjanssens> Interesting, so my build or bundler did skip something after all. I'm not too worried though. I'm happy the buid still succeeds with the simplified server script.
15:40:43 <jralls> The noise level seems lower as well, though there's still a futuresys warning for every time gncmodule is loaded. I don't see that on other OSes and I don't understand it, futuresys is in a test directory.
15:48:00 <gjanssens> Yes I noticed that one as well.
15:48:19 <gjanssens> And with that it's time to sign off.
15:48:23 <gjanssens> Good night!
15:48:43 <jralls> Night!
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17:40:35 <BenB> so, which version of aqbanking is necessary to have the specific new PSD2 support in HCBI?
17:41:16 <BenB> I cannot access my bank accounts anymore since Sept 14.
17:42:13 <BenB> this is really bad maintainership here. It's not like you're building an Yahoo client and Yahoo broke their servers. This was known long in advance.
17:43:49 <BenB> the minimum bar of a maintainer of a software is to ensure that the software continues to work.
17:46:06 <BenB> not even the flatpak flathub.org with GnuCash 3.7 works. I get the same message from the bank server that my software doesn't support PSD2 and isn't registered.
17:46:47 <BenB> and that's after several hours of searching for updated Ubuntu bionic packages, trying to get flatpak to work etc.pp.
17:50:18 <chf> The Flatpak at Gnucash.org works, at least you can fetch transactions and balances.
17:50:41 <chf> AMD64-only
17:51:39 <chf> See https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/De/Flatpak
17:53:10 <chf> BenB, do you speak german?
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18:14:20 <chf> For all german-speaking users I've provided installation instructions for a HBCI capable version here: https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/De/Flatpak/Migrationsanleitung
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19:41:41 <jralls> BenB: You need the latest unstable releases of Gwenhywfar (4.99.16beta) and AQBanking(5.99.33beta) and possibly Libchipcard (5.1.3beta) as well as a git clone of GnuCash's maint branch.
19:43:53 <jralls> BenB: I don't know the details, but it's my understanding that the German banks and paid financial software companies implemented closed-specification 2FA protocols and didn't make that information available to the AQBanking developer. There's likely more correct information on the gnucash-de and aqbanking mailing lists.
19:45:20 <jralls> chf: As I told x42 earlier, it would be surprising if anyone who cares about this doesn't at least read and write German. This is totally a German bank thing, no-one else in the world uses FinTS.
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21:22:41 <chf> I live in a university town, jralls, and unfortunately, there are people here, not properly speaking german for years, because they make it easy for postdoc scientists to get away with that by talking english all the time.
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22:00:41 <BenB> chf, yes, I'm German. I'm trying to use HBCI with norisbank and Sparkasse. Deutsche Bank RDH and DKB PIN already worked with GnuCash 2.6.
22:01:26 <BenB> the flathub one didn't work, I get "doesn't support PSD2" from the bank HBCI server.
22:01:40 <chf> Schau mal da: https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/De/Flatpak/Migrationsanleitung
22:02:17 <chf> Ja, das ist die stabile 3.7 mit Aqbanking 5.8.3.
22:02:19 <BenB> I've now installed the master-C3.7-201-g8342a6dfb-D3.7-15-gc52384e flatpak from that wiki page, and there, aqbanking is 100% broken. It doesn't find any config. all HBCI accounts are gone.
22:02:54 <chf> Ja, kopiere "settings" nach "settings6".
22:02:59 <BenB> I went to the setup wizard, and there are no banks and accounts listed.
22:04:13 <fell> Moin!
22:04:14 <chf> $ ls -l ~/.aqbanking
22:04:14 <chf> insgesamt 16
22:04:14 <chf> drwx--S--- 3 christoph christoph 4096 Jan 19 2011 apps
22:04:14 <chf> drwx--S--- 3 christoph christoph 4096 Jan 19 2011 backends
22:04:14 <chf> drwx--S--- 8 christoph christoph 4096 Jan 19 2011 settings
22:04:14 <chf> drwx--S--- 9 christoph christoph 4096 Sep 22 23:12 settings6
22:04:40 <BenB> chf, yes, that helped (but the software should do that itself!)
22:06:01 <fell> Steht aber inden Anleitungen, daß Sie das (och nicht automatisch) macht.
22:06:38 <BenB> chf, with this, I can now fetch the TAN-modes from the Sparkasse. But the account list fetch (still in aqbanking setup) fails with "HBCI: 9075 - Banking-Programm nicht PSD2-fähig, bitte aktualisieren. (M)"
22:08:07 <chf> Hast Du die beiden E-Mail-Kopien da im Wiki gelesen? Du mußt die ganzen Updates machen, also auch Bankparameterlisten neu holen und so.
22:08:08 <fell> Jetzt, die jeweilige Version6-Methode wählen.
22:10:22 <chf> Von der Norisbank hast Du wahrscheinlich einen Phototangenerator bekommen, das geht noch nicht; Abrufen müßte aber gehen.
22:11:16 <fell> https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=667490
22:11:22 <BenB> chf, ich benutze photoTAN app auf Android
22:12:34 <BenB> chf, die ganzen setup-knöpfe da (get bank info bla bla) habe ich alle der reihe nach gedrückt.
22:12:47 <BenB> allerdings frage ich mich schon, warum man das alles manuell machen muss.
22:13:07 <chf> Das ist egal, Gnucash & Aqbanking müssen die Grafik ja anzeigen, egal womit Du die fotografierst, es sei denn, Du machst das komplett mit dem Telefon, also die ganze Überweisung.
22:14:32 <BenB> chf, bei der norisbank kommt in den HBCI-Meldungen von der Bank der Hinweis, dass ab 23.10.2019 die "starke Authentifizierung" benötigt wird. das heisst, dass dann auch der reine Abruf eine photoTAN braucht (2FA).
22:14:34 <chf> Da gibt es übrigens einen Angriffsvektor, falls Dein Telefon einen Trojaner abkriegt.
22:14:51 <chf> Immer?
22:14:58 <BenB> ja, immer.
22:15:01 <chf> Nicht nur alle X Tage?
22:15:02 <BenB> PSD2 kennst du ja, oder?
22:15:37 <chf> Leider inzwischen, natürlich nicht alles gelesen.
22:15:47 <BenB> was bei HBCI als "login" zählt, weiss ich nicht, aber das Gesetz verlangt 2FA beim Login, auch wenn man nur Daten anschauen will. (Warum, weiss der Geier)
22:16:05 <BenB> inzwischen? PSD2 ist ja 6 Jahre alt.
22:16:27 <chf> Damals hat das aber niemanden interessiert.
22:17:13 <BenB> Der Käfer hat sich auch nicht für die Dampfwalze interessiert, bis sie über ihn rollte.
22:17:51 <fell> Von der EU-Richtlinie über ein deutsches Gesetz in einen FinTS-Standard und verschiedenste Implementierungsvarianten bei den Banken ist ein langer Weg.
22:18:16 <chf> Genau, woher soll der auch von der Dampfwalze wissen, die in irgendeinem Lobby-Keller zusammengebaut wird?
22:19:17 <chf> Hätte ich davon gewußt, hätte ich Vasco-Aktien gekauft…
22:19:58 <fell> Mit den Gesetzes-Namen ist ja auch so eine Sache. Eigentlich geht es um die Zulassung von Drittanbietern zwischen Deinen Banken und Dir.
22:21:37 <BenB> fell, die verschiedenen implementierungen der Banken sind das Problem. Das Gesetz hätte auch gleich einen einheitlichen und offenen Standard vorschreiben müssen.
22:21:42 <chf> Ja, genau dafür habe ich mir Bitcoins angesachafft, weil ich unbedingt noch mehr Schmarotzer zwischen mir und dem Zahlungsempfänger brauche.
22:22:16 <fell> So wie ich es verstanden habe verlangt der Gesetzgeber "nur", daß die Banken Risikoprofile erstellen und darauf reagieren, also jeder sein eigenes Süppchen kocht.
22:22:43 <chf> Schmarotzer, die gleich noch meine Zugangsdaten haben wollen und dürfen, echt eine Super-Idee!
22:23:02 <BenB> chf, die sind schon da. wenn du zahlst, läuft das von dem händler zu stripe, von dem zu einer EU händlerbank, von da zu MasterCard, von dort zur Kundenbank, und dann zum Kundenkonto. Vor PSD2.
22:23:35 <BenB> s/stripe/zahlungsdienstleister/ ... und bei Paypal ist noch mehr dazwischen.
22:23:37 <chf> Ja, und jetzt werden es noch mehr davon.
22:24:20 <BenB> ich finde es ganz gut, dass die Banken verpflichtet werden, Zugriff zu gewähren. Nur das Gesetz ist grottig schlecht gemacht.
22:24:20 <chf> Die kriegen derzeit aber alle nicht das Paßwort von meinem Konto.
22:24:53 <chf> Also alles wie immer.
22:25:06 <BenB> ich habe schon bessere gesetze gesehen.
22:25:15 <fell> Wenn wir das dem Gesetzgeber überlassen, landen wir in der Computer-Steinzeit. Der wollte mal eine Schülercomputer vorschreiben, der nur einen Bruchteil der Fähigkeiten eines einfachen Smartfons, aber ein Vielfaches dessen Preises gehabt hätte.
22:26:05 <BenB> fell, der gesetzgeber muss nur vorschreiben, dass alle EU-Banken denselben standard unterstützen müssen, und dass der frei (im IETF-sinne) sein muss.
22:27:38 <fell> Aber schöne Namen haben die Gesetze jetzt! Echt Neusprech.
22:27:48 <BenB> und, ehrlich gesagt, es wäre auch die Aufgabe von GnuCash gewesen, aktiv darauf hinzuarbeiten, dass das passiert.
22:28:13 <fell> Den Job bekommst Du gerne, Bwn!
22:28:14 <chf> Das tun die lobbygesteuerten Vollpfosten aber nun mal traditionell nicht – siehe Gesundheitswesen, da wird mit der Gematik ein neuer Quasimonopolist gegründet.
22:28:36 <BenB> fell, ich mache meine Arbeit auf anderen Gebieten.
22:28:44 <ElonSatoshi[m]> guten tag, i speak english and a bit of spanish
22:28:58 <fell> No Problem
22:29:03 <chf> OK, ElonSatoshi[m], welcome, bienvenido.
22:29:12 <ElonSatoshi[m]> thank you gracias lol
22:29:22 <ElonSatoshi[m]> what's up?
22:29:22 <BenB> z.B. dass du dein Email-Programm einrichten kannst, ohne hostnamen und parameter zu kennen, dank ISP-datenbank. sowas täte übrigens auch GnuCash gut.
22:30:04 <BenB> chf, die gematik ist ja spektakulär fehlgeschlagen.
22:30:14 <ElonSatoshi[m]> i wish i could just learn every language
22:30:45 <ElonSatoshi[m]> hey maybe i could learn all the major ones in my short lifespan
22:31:04 <fell> Naja, was Online-Banking angeht, verlassen wir uns, genauso wie KMyMoney, auf aqbanking.
22:31:07 <chf> JA, genua das meine ich BenB, die wird uns aber genau so lange heimsuchen, wie das überflüassige, mafiöse „Duale System“, wei sie „systemrelevant“ ist.
22:31:10 <BenB> chf, jetzt bin ich aber immer noch nicht weiter mit der einrichtung.
22:31:58 <chf> ElonSatoshi[m]: there are too many, and define "major" in this context.
22:32:39 <BenB> fell, vielleicht sollte man das nicht tun und selbst aktiver werden. man sieht ja, dass das alles nicht funktioniert.
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22:33:18 <BenB> als benutzer will ich nur kontonummer und PIN angeben, und das Programm soll den Rest tun. *Alles* andere.
22:33:21 <chf> Du mußt im Reiter „Benutzer“ und „Konten“ alle Schaltflächen ein Mal drücken, es könnte auf die Reihenfolge ankommen, da blicke ich noch nicht durch.
22:33:27 <fell> Davon hat keins der Projekte die Manpower.
22:33:45 <BenB> chf, das habe ich gemacht. Sparkasse sagt trotzdem "nicht PSD2-fähig"
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22:34:18 <fell> And from a global view german online banking is not very important.
22:34:23 <ElonSatoshi[m]> chf: hmm... when I think major languages I think english, spanish, german, french, italian, japanese, russian
22:34:27 <ElonSatoshi[m]> from the top of my head
22:34:36 <BenB> fell, wer von euch ist denn entwickler? wie viele aktive Entwickler hat GnuCash?
22:34:55 <chf> Not chinese?
22:35:05 <BenB> ElonSatoshi[m], I think the 1.4 billion chinese might disagree.
22:35:12 <fell> Der harte Kern besteht aus einer Handvoll.
22:35:18 <fell> or Hindi?
22:35:22 <BenB> fell, d.h. 5?
22:35:31 <BenB> fell, wer ist das, genau?
22:37:02 <chf> BenB, es könnte sein, daß die Benutzeroberfläche tatsächlich noch was falsch macht, keine Ahnung; mit dem aqhbci-tool4 ging es bei mir.
22:37:22 <fell> https://github.com/orgs/Gnucash/people
22:38:13 <fell> from which one is a bot.
22:40:16 <BenB> fell, which one is a bot?
22:40:28 <chf> Those all look like real people.
22:40:43 <fell> GnuCash GitHub Account code-gnucash-org
22:41:05 <BenB> I see only 4 people on that page.
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22:42:33 <BenB> fell, years ago, setting up an email account in Thunderbird was just as painful. You had to set a number of parameters, including writing the username and domain in a specific form. get any one of them wrong, and nothing works.
22:43:10 <BenB> fell, even as a developer, I didn't manage to set up an account. I told myself: "If even I have a hard time, how can an average user like my mother do it?"
22:44:07 <BenB> so, I came up with the idea of an "ISP database". It would pick the right ISP based on the email address domain, and would know the right config for all major ISPs, and use these parameters automatically.
22:44:27 <BenB> the user has to enter only the email address and password and his name, *nothing* else.
22:44:51 <BenB> back then, that was lunatic. even iPhones asked for hostnames, parameters etc.
22:45:47 <BenB> but it worked. I could gather the configs for all major ISPs (pretty much all with more than 0.1% market share). and the setup works. the user is up and running within seconds.
22:46:22 <fell> Until some time ago there was a public list of banks at "Die Kreditwirtschaft", former ZKA
22:46:23 <BenB> I've implemented that in Thunderbird. Then, everybody from kmail to Apple iPhone copied the idea.
22:46:57 <fell> Then they decided to send it only to registered developers.
22:47:04 <BenB> fell, why do I tell the story? because I think this needs something similar. enter your bank, account number and PIN, and GnuCash needs to figure out all the rest.
22:47:31 <BenB> fell, so, go register and publish the list per HTTPS in JSON.
22:48:08 <BenB> I had to gather the ISP configs manually.
22:48:24 <fell> cstim and Martin Preuss get the list and the NDA,.
22:48:34 <BenB> but it was worth it. better 1 person doing it than every single user.
22:49:54 <fell> In theory, aqbanking has a list compiled from several sources.
22:50:20 <fell> But with PSD2 parameters changed
22:50:56 <fell> And we do not know, which Methods you agreed with your bank.
22:52:05 <fell> Currently you should use and improve https://www.aquamaniac.de/rdm/projects/aqbanking/wiki/AqBanking6_Bankentabelle
22:52:14 <BenB> well, for most banks, there are only 1 or 2 methods. and I bet you can figure that out from the protocol somehow. otherwise, yes, you could ask that question. that's something the user knows and can answer.
22:53:16 <BenB> fell, I've never seen that. Google always sends me to https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/De/HBCI whenever I search for "gnucash <anybank>"
22:54:02 <BenB> fell, what I mean is that this should be in the software and fetched via a HTTPS/JSON/REST protocol.
22:54:20 <BenB> plus all the other parameters you need.
22:56:06 <fell> After it stabilyze, the wiki table might perhaps become part of /de/Bankenliste in aqbanking.
22:56:19 <BenB> BTW: Is it just me or flatpak or is GnuCash 3.7 significantly slower than GnuCash 2.6?
22:56:59 <BenB> fell, you cannot ship it with the software, because it changes. That's all the more important with the 7 year release cycles of Ubuntu.
22:57:11 <BenB> it needs to be on a server.
22:57:48 <BenB> ...as REST protocol (or maybe you meant that, I'm not sure)
22:57:49 <fell> You should file an issue at aqbanking
22:58:16 <BenB> it's 5 AM here. :)
22:58:28 <BenB> I should be sleeping since 2 hours :)
22:58:33 <fell> After PSD2 is solved, it is an inetersting project.
22:58:46 <BenB> ok, glad you like it
22:59:20 <BenB> chf, I used the aqbanking GUI. It might be broken?
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23:05:08 <BenB> chf, I see what's broken in the GUI
23:05:44 <BenB> when I click "get TAN modes" button, it fetches a list and seem to succeed. the UI list seems to have been updated as well.
23:06:10 <BenB> but the UI list has e.g. "902" has mode number. on the commandline output, I see "6902".
23:08:51 <BenB> or maybe that's what the GUI shows as "Version", e.g. "902 photoTAN (Version 6)"?
23:09:42 <fell> right
23:13:53 <BenB> maybe it's the "aqhbci-tool4 getaccsepa" that's missing.
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23:14:06 <BenB> after I did that, I am getting further.
23:14:32 <BenB> the bank server now says "Selecting iTAN mode photoTAN-Verfahren (902)"
23:14:49 <fell> yes, it fills your missing sepa data like BIC.
23:15:08 <BenB> could GnuCash please do that automatically? Pretty please?
23:15:37 <BenB> I remember that this one tripped me a few years ago (when SEPA was introduced) as well, costing me hours upon hours to find that out.
23:16:19 <BenB> it should really be trivial to trigger all the "get bank info", "get tan modes" and "get sepa info" calls automatically.
23:16:39 <BenB> esp. the lack of the latter has been a real foot angle.
23:16:40 <fell> At the moment we are working to get it "somehow"working for as much users as possible.
23:17:02 <BenB> having to go to the command line counts as "not working" for 99% of the user.
23:17:27 <fell> We spent last week mostly with packaging issues instead of programming.
23:18:07 <BenB> I'm just saying, could you please add that? that already tripped me a few years ago. I thought it had been added by now.
23:18:15 <fell> File an enhancement request
23:18:20 <BenB> I just did :)
23:18:27 <BenB> (here, to you)
23:20:06 <BenB> FWIW, fetching the bank transactions or even the current sum still doesn't work.
23:20:39 <fell> almost everything outside of bugzilla uses to get forgotten, bcause other more urgent issues pop up.
23:21:09 <BenB> I am getting no useful error message, just an "error (11)" popup. nothing pertinent on the HBCI log window.
23:21:56 <fell> And cstim is the aqbanking expert, but his day job and family have higher priority for him.
23:22:19 <BenB> fell, I can see that from his github statistics. he barely does anything at all.
23:23:16 <BenB> (family *should* have priority, of course. but then again, people depend on GnuCash for their day job. like me, for example.)
23:25:05 <BenB> I'm calling it quits.
23:27:00 <chf> Well, I've begun reformatting that command line instruction page because of lack of readability when copied from E-Mail into Mediawiki.
23:27:24 <BenB> chf, thanks. that's already useful.
23:27:45 <BenB> chf, fell: Thanks for your help and kind moral and practical support.
23:28:17 <chf> Of course almost everything *should* be even better than it is, but lack of time is preventing it.
23:29:02 <BenB> however, I would encourage you to take 10 steps back and see it from an end user perspective, who needs GnuCash, but who just wants it to work out of the box.
23:29:12 <fell> Would one of you like to rewrite https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/De/HBCI?
23:29:36 <BenB> fell, I wouldn't even know where to start.
23:29:51 <BenB> my mantra has always been: If the user needs documentation, that's a FAIL for the software.
23:30:22 <BenB> (which, coincidentally, is also the Apple mantra and works well for them.)
23:30:26 <chf> I AM mostly an end user, just added an account template and updated another, and tried to document a few things in the wiki.
23:30:59 <BenB> chf, fell : Thanks for your work on GnuCash, both of you.
23:31:47 <BenB> (I'd happily pay a few dozen Euros per year for GnuCash, but unfortuntely, I'm in the minority, so it won't make much of a difference.)
23:32:13 <fell> Yeah, and when we switched from assembler to higher level languages, some said "The source is the documentation" ;-)
23:32:23 <BenB> haha
23:32:42 <BenB> that was when only scientists used computers.
23:33:05 <chf> I think people who help are more needed much more than euros.
23:33:08 <BenB> today, computers have become useful to other groups of people :)
23:36:13 <fell> I think about wiki pages as hotfixes. Finally many parts should move to tooltips, help pages, ...
23:36:50 <BenB> fell, try to think of ways that the user doesn't even need to read anything.
23:37:45 <BenB> in this case, for example, fetching all the basic bank params from REST, triggering the HBCI setup calls automatically instead of manually, would do the job.
23:38:08 <BenB> I bet it would even be easier than building a nice UI to enter the params.
23:38:09 <fell> That is a task for the next generation. I dislike i.e. most parts offered by my smartphone.
23:38:49 <BenB> "next generation" as in Jean Luc Picard? Or 30 years from now? or the next Gnucash release?
23:39:25 <BenB> fell, yet, you apparently use your smartphone :-) . As you 3 billion other people.
23:40:00 <fell> Next generation of Gnucash contributors.
23:40:16 <fell> I was more happy with my Nokia.
23:41:09 <fell> Finally I had 2 similar: One had a broken display and the other did not load.
23:42:40 <BenB> fell, Nokia still makes the 3310 and 8110, you know? :)
23:44:51 <BenB> https://www.nokia.com/phones/en_int/nokia-8110-4g https://www.amazon.de/dp/B07CNXF98X
23:45:02 <BenB> only 55 eur :)