2019-03-09 GnuCash IRC logs
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03:07:34 <chris> @tell gjanssens and pinging fell jralls warlord - I'm thinking my multicolumn balsheet-pnl should really be merged; labelled 'warning- verify amounts and report bugs' and inviting bug reports. would you guys have any objections?
03:07:34 <gncbot> chris: The operation succeeded.
03:11:44 <fell> chris: context?
03:32:12 <chris> multicolumn balance-sheet and profit&loss statement. displays report at multiple dates
03:42:04 <chris> fell https://github.com/christopherlam/gnucash/blob/maint-balsheet-pnl/gnucash/report/standard-reports/balsheet-pnl.scm
03:45:52 <fell> About your footer text:
03:46:09 <fell> https://bugs.gnucash.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=GnuCash&component=Reports
03:47:14 <fell> At the mailing list only things which are not clear. No Bug reports1
03:51:37 <chris> done, recheck
03:53:46 <fell> No Translation of Footer text?
04:00:48 <fell> And a note on comments: i.e. gnucash/report/standard-reports/income-gst-statement.scm:206 generates a long comment in gnucash.pot, starting with '#. each column will be a vector'
04:01:14 <fell> is that intended?
04:04:43 <chris> perhaps not.
04:05:09 <chris> i don't know gnucash.pot -- perhaps you could try newline prior to the ;; Translators: comment?
04:06:58 <chris> i've added (_ footer-text)
04:07:47 <chris> (_ "WARNING: Please be aware these figures are not guaranteed to be
04:07:47 <chris> correct. No calculations for capital gains, or unrealized gains are
04:07:47 <chris> made. Foreign currency conversions are not yet confirmed correct. Use
04:07:47 <chris> the amounts at your own risk. This report may be modified without
04:07:50 <chris> notice. Bug reports are very welcome at
04:07:53 <chris> https://bugs.gnucash.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=GnuCash&component=Reports")
04:07:54 <fell> gnucash.pot is the message catalog, from which the .po files get created or updated
04:08:49 <fell> you can generate it with make/ninja pot in ${Builddir}/po
04:11:19 <fell> make has to be run in ${BUILDIR} and the result is i it's subdir po
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04:14:13 <chris> i've fixed, recheck
04:15:46 <chris> ok will be out for next few hours
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04:57:44 <fell> Chris: probably we should use https://bugs.gnucash.org/buglist.cgi?component=Reports&product=GnuCash&resolution=--- instead of enter.cgi to avoid duplicate reports?
04:58:43 <fell> feel free to adjust the parameters
05:03:23 <fell> BTW having the Bugurl as a (untranlated) parameter, would avoid breaking the translation, if we decide to change the URL.
05:16:18 <fell> The comment in gnucash.ppot is now fine.
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07:13:42 <warlord> .
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08:23:06 <warlord> fell, I am wondering if we should turn off channel moderation? It looks like IRC is no longer under attack, so we can turn it off for now and turn it back on next time there's an emergency?
08:23:39 <warlord> Obviously we'll leave the AutoVoice capabilities, so next time it'll be simple for users because everyone is already registered with NickServ.
08:24:53 <fell> The last wave we had was August last year.
08:25:50 <fell> It seems somebody disliking some freenode ops is from time to time hiring a bot army.
08:26:01 <warlord> Yeah.
08:26:20 <warlord> At least now we're set up for this kind of attack and can quickly /mode +m the channel
08:26:46 <warlord> Or we can keep moderation to stop the random flybys
08:26:53 <warlord> I'm fine either way.
08:27:04 <warlord> Just throwing it out as an option to be more "open"
08:28:08 <fell> Yes, this nightly alt right messages are annoying, too.
08:29:18 <fell> But I do not remember, when I have last seen them.
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08:29:58 <warlord> Were they nightly? I purged such crap from the logs whenever I saw them.
08:30:35 <fell> UTC related
08:32:47 <fell> I believe, there is a modus, where ops can see messages from unregistered users. How about that as compromise.
08:33:05 <warlord> Is there such a mode? How do you configure that?
08:35:36 <fell> I have to google that again
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08:40:39 <fell> +z – Op moderated. Messages blocked by +m are instead sent to ops.
08:40:57 <fell> from http://www.ircworld.org/help/channel-modes-cmode
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08:45:36 <fell> OK, lets watch the result. ;-)
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09:02:37 <warlord> okay.
09:02:49 <warlord> Of course, it means gncbot will see them, too, and as a result log them... :-/
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09:10:52 <fell> Thanks, warlord!
09:11:43 <warlord> I don't understand how +z affected you... Weird.
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09:14:26 <fell> There is no standard on extended modes, AFAIK.
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09:20:50 <warlord> apparently
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10:36:05 <chris> fell https://github.com/christopherlam/gnucash/blob/maint-balsheet-pnl/gnucash/report/standard-reports/balsheet-pnl.scm FOOTER-TEXT modified
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10:48:23 <fell> chris, how will it look in LTR writing like ar or he?
10:48:37 <fell> RTL
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10:52:23 <fell> تطوير نسخة GnuCash 3.4
10:58:41 <chris> I have no idea, not a translator... but wouldn't it be better to put it out there and let the users and translators send in bug reports rather than us bikeshedding on these issues?
11:00:14 <fell> In C I would use "<your text>: %s"
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11:00:39 <fell> Then the translator can reorder it.
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11:02:49 <fell> with a comment %s is the bug URL
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17:23:59 <jralls> chris: There are a lot of changes in that branch. What in particular do you want me to look at?
17:34:05 <jralls> chris: What fell about RTL really applies to all messages that include some variable dereference. Instead of (gnc:make-html-text (_ "WARNING:...: ") (gnc:html-markup-anchor bugzilla-url bugzilla-url)) you say
17:35:08 <jralls> (gnc:make-html-text (format #f (_ "WARNING:...: ~a" (gnc:html-markup-anchor bugzilla-url bugzilla-url))))
17:37:58 <jralls> That allows the translator to put the URL somewhere else in the paragraph if appropriate for her language. It's particularly important for right-to-left (that's what RTL means) languages like Arabic and Hebrew because the URL goes to the left of the paragraph in those languages.
17:44:07 <jralls> chris: BUT I'm not comfortable merging a report that needs a warning like that into a stable branch. gjanssens and I discussed merging new features in between major releases but we didn't really get into the mechanics of doing so. Since your report is Scheme maybe you could bundle it up in a way that users could install it into their GNC_DATA_DIRS and recruit some folks on the mailing lists to try it out and give you feedback so that you can final
17:44:07 <jralls> ize the format before it goes into a release.
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18:12:41 <chris> jralls I am not sure the warning can be internationalized like that... I removed the ~a specifically because putting a clickable URL generates different html text that won't be understood by gettext. (gnc:make-html-text (format #f (_ "Warning: etc ~a") bugzilla-url)) would be my approach, removing clickable link but allowing i18n.
18:13:47 <chris> jralls in otherwords translators will translate "Warning: etc ~a" into "Attention! ~a" but gettext will try translate "Warning: etc https://bugs.gnucash.org" which won't match anything
18:13:54 <chris> (I think)
18:14:32 <jralls> chris: The html tags aren't a problem, that part is outside of what gettext sees. Oh, I put the (_ close paren in the wrong place, it should be (gnc:make-html-text (format #f (_ "WARNING:...: ~a") (gnc:html-markup-anchor bugzilla-url bugzilla-url)))
18:14:57 <chris> moreover despite multiple requests, I have had absolutely NO feedback regarding asset->report-currency calculators over the couple years asking for feedback
18:15:30 <jralls> Not true. Wm is vehemently opposed to the very concept.
18:16:27 <jralls> But Wm doesn't understand much, so it's reasonable to discount his response.
18:17:09 <chris> this branch will simplify the gnc:get-commodity-totalavg/inst-price: https://github.com/christopherlam/gnucash/commits/maint-commodity-utils/
18:17:22 <chris> ugly function now simpler
18:18:17 <chris> the maint-balsheet-pnl report is very much complete however only the pricing strategy needs confirming
18:18:23 <chris> hence the warning which can be toned down
18:19:04 <jralls> Yeah, I saw your request about that from yesterday and took a look. It will take a bit of study to get the big picture of what you're doing.
18:20:30 <jralls> Hmm, I read that warning as pretty generic, not just about pricing. Pricing is a tricky subject and I'm not sure that there's a sufficiently generic solution.
18:21:16 <chris> yeah - conceptually easy - balance-sheet or income-statement, but repeat at multiple columns. the ONLY issue is when converting into report-currency - what exact price calculator to use? I've been trying 'best-guess' - eg on 01/01/18 AAPL->USD at 01/01/18 prices, or totalavg, or inst up-to 01/01/18.
18:21:48 <jralls> Meaning that I can easily imagine that no two people/companies will use the same forex pricing strategy and so there's no way to make a GnuCash standard report that would be useful by more than one user.
18:22:19 <chris> in multicol p&l the pricing can also be set at begin/mid/end-period e.g. income $1000 from 01/01/18 to 31/03/18 converted at 01/01/18 price, or 31/03/18 price, or even today 10/03/19 price
18:22:52 <chris> hence feedback being sought
18:22:58 <jralls> That requires that the user actually has prices for those dates in his book.
18:23:15 <chris> well yeah that's the 'nearest' target price point
18:23:23 <chris> in any case i gotta go
18:23:48 <chris> for a single-commodity majority user, these reports are feature-complete
18:24:35 <jralls> OK. Parting shot: I think that there are only two legal prices: Book value, aka "average cost", and "mark-to-market" using the price on the (last) date of the report.
18:24:36 <chris> for this branch it's only the gnc:get-commodity-totalavg/inst-price functions that warrant reviewing - https://github.com/christopherlam/gnucash/commits/maint-commodity-utils/
18:24:56 <chris> ok
18:26:17 <jralls> IIUC mark to market requires booking the unrealized gains and losses as income/expense, but I don't know the technical rules for doing that. Maybe Dave Cousens does.
18:27:15 <jralls> Which particular commits implement the functional (as opposed to cosmetic) changes in maint-commodity-utils?
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18:35:57 <chris> all cosmetic, hence tests unchanged
18:36:13 <chris> and imho simpler
18:36:29 <fell> About price strategy, at least when I studied, in DE also HiFo was common.
18:37:06 <fell> But that got never implemented in Gnucash
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18:38:27 <chris> FIFO/FILO = unrealized gains calculator I think
18:39:06 <chris> i'll merge balance-forecast soon tho
18:39:32 <chris> ok gtg now really
18:41:00 <jralls> fell: HiFo?
18:41:14 <fell> Highest i , first out
18:42:26 <fell> On a volatile market on a sale I have always at first to sell the lots, which I bought at the highest price.
18:42:30 <jralls> fell: But that's for determining realized gains (or material expense -> cost of goods sold). chris and I were talking about valuing securities held for investment.
18:43:31 <jralls> That's interesting: The tax law requires that you minimize your capital gains tax liability.
18:44:14 <jralls> Do you have different "short term" and "long term" capital gains tax rates?
18:44:15 <fell> It is one of the main differences between US and DE.
18:44:39 <fell> fair value vs. lowest value.
18:45:10 <jralls> Sort of. We're *allowed* to do it that way, we just have to tell the broker in writing what lot we want to sell. Otherwise it's assumed FIFO.
18:46:08 <fell> US laws try to protect investors, german laws creditors.
18:47:31 <jralls> There's not that much difference between investors and creditors. Depending on the vehicle (e.g. bonds or preferred stock) there's no difference.
18:48:00 <jralls> s/Depending on the vehicle/for some vehicles/
18:50:13 <fell> while the interests on bonds are usually fix, didvidends depend on the profit.
18:50:49 <fell> Whith lowest value, there is less profit to share.
18:57:38 <jralls> You're confusing share holding and investing. Share holding is only one form of investing. Lending is another.
18:58:25 <fell> Rght, i should have used share hollder
19:00:54 <fell> and most time of my life long term capital gains have been tax free, but that changed.
19:09:21 <jralls> The only way we ever get tax free cap gains is in a tax-sheltered retirement account. Long term cap gains and most dividends are taxed at lower rates than wage and interest income, but at 15-23% depending on total income.
19:09:48 <jralls> There's also tax-free interest for certain local government bonds.
19:11:49 <jralls> Anyway, GTG.
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19:21:38 <SomeBloke> Hello everyone ! I am currently experiencing an instant crash when creating a new database on GnuCash (Windows 10 1809), and, after trying several times, it crashed after I tried adding a transaction. Here is (what I think is) the stack trace : https://pastebin.com/c6kQcHjb Thanks !
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21:11:08 <chris> jralls_afk if I move the multiperiod balsheet/pnl to the 'sample & custom' submenu it'll be better?
21:11:32 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v frakturfreak
21:11:45 <frakturfreak> Wonderful I found another nice perk of German laws making the currency conversion of gnucash for certain balance sheets nearly unusuable (§308a hgb) (for cases where your main currency actually is USD, you account in USD, but you have to produce your statements in EUR, as required by law).
21:13:07 <frakturfreak> Assets and Liabilties with the statement date. Profit/Loss with average quotes. Equity at historic costs (and booking the difference to a special placeholder account).
21:14:27 <frakturfreak> however this only seems to affect Company Group statements
21:15:12 <frakturfreak> Sorry for talking nonsense it’s late and i’ve just seen the last hours of discussion here.
21:16:01 <chris> frakturfreak fell jralls_afk without trying to annoy/offend everyone, but I think that users who use gnucash reports and rely on the pricing calculators for foreign-currency/stock are really asking for trouble... I have an acceptable understanding of code and yet I am not sure I would trust these pricing calculators. the main benefit for balsheet-pnl is really the periodic balance/income-expense reporting that people have been crying
21:16:01 <chris> out for ages, and it's a shame to block this just because I am not an expert in international law
21:16:19 <chris> for a single-currency user it is absolutely fine
21:16:29 <chris> (I hope, pending bug reports)
21:17:20 <chris> for my own stocks/funds I'd still rely on the broker to give me an accurate figure...
21:18:20 <frakturfreak> Luckily I never have long term things in foreign currencies.
21:18:41 <chris> Ideally I'd add into an "Experimental" submenu, but last time I tried to add another submenu I failed
21:18:49 <chris> Hence my suggestion for "Custom and Sample"
21:18:55 <frakturfreak> And for the Stocks/Funds gnucash is quite reliable however I’m on the same page as you and checking the statements of my bank to confir
21:19:12 <frakturfreak> I wouldn’t trust gnucash per se with the conversion stuff.
21:20:52 <chris> amen
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21:21:49 <chris> the most sophisticated report is the advanced-portfolio and it aims to a lot behind the scenes, taking into account brokerage fees, capital gains, stock splits, but I still am not sure it is doing the right thing
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21:22:23 <frakturfreak> Yes multicolumn statements with periodic reports are standard report in the professional tax accounting software I use at work
21:23:06 <chris> people want a periodic report - "what's the approximate networth for every quarter for the past 10 years?" "how much did we earn each quarter? please break down by income source" and my balsheet-pnl was designed for this
21:23:45 <chris> until I reached a block whereby we need to convert all stock/foreign-currency into a target currency, and find there is no consensus on how this should be done
21:25:42 <chris> my naive view is that each column/networth-date/income-expense-period gets pricing relevant to the exact date of valuation / being analyzed, and I've done my best, and it seems to work, but I still don't know if it's the right answer
21:26:27 <frakturfreak> Is there any possibility of combining the multicolumn balance sheet and income statement into one (I even can suggest the German translation for this report, so that won’t be to long).
21:27:33 <frakturfreak> chris: That would also be my naive view, since basically you’re basically taking the balance sheet at the end of each period.
21:27:41 <chris> into 1 html page? I didn't design it that way. they use the same source file because a lot of code & options is shared, but they output 1 report each
21:28:27 <chris> (my naive view is limited because it won't take into account unrealized gains/losses in the periodic balsheet... ditto periodic income/expense won't track periodic unrealized gains.... FAR too hard)
21:28:45 <chris> and don't get me started on trading-accounts :-o
21:29:20 <chris> the main purpose is just as above - "what's the approximate networth for every quarter for the past 10 years?" "how much did we earn each quarter? please break down by income source" and my balsheet-pnl was designed for this
21:29:29 <frakturfreak> However I seem to mix up my reports, but could a report like this be doable:
21:32:56 <chris> it may be easier to push the balsheet-pnl multicolumn report but avoid the whole issue altogether by refusing to choose a target currency... all amounts keep their original currency, problem solved; however gjanssens stated that this would not be a true balance sheet anymore
21:32:57 <frakturfreak> https://docplayer.org/docs-images/25/5598038/images/20-0.png (there also is one called by another name, which is the one described previously)
21:35:32 <frakturfreak> https://www.rentas-controllingsoftware.de/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Datev_Saldenliste_Excel_Export_Rentas_Excel-Tabelle.png
21:37:12 <chris> for only 1 period it should be doable, bearing in mind I don't have an answer for all the pricing-strategy issues as above
21:39:04 <frakturfreak> In the first statement Eröffnungsbilanzwert or short EB-Wert is the opening balances for these accounts, then a column for just the differenct credit and debit transactions for this particular month and two for the ytd values and lastly the final account balance for the particular month.
21:40:22 <chris> and I guess the columns on the left are the asset/liability accounts
21:40:28 <frakturfreak> Also is it just I displaying choice or is gnucash always reporting for the first of each month for a periodic accounts
21:40:55 <chris> periodic accounts can be for *any* start-date, and *any* period :)
21:41:14 <chris> well, no, limited to weekly/quarterly/monthly/yearly
21:41:36 <chris> you could choose quarterly balancesheet on 18-december-2017 onwards if you wish
21:41:46 <frakturfreak> chris: Not just asset and liability also expense and income
21:42:39 <chris> this doesn't make sense - what is meaning of opening-balance for income-account
21:42:55 <frakturfreak> chris: What I wanted to say if I choose a monthly report i want it to report the balances for each’s month end not the the first of the next one
21:43:12 <frakturfreak> chris: There is none, hence why there are none listed
21:43:48 <chris> ah, the good news is you can already do monthly month-end periodic dates, this was a 'bug' that has been fixed recently
21:44:01 <frakturfreak> the accounts beginning with 4 and 8 in their first line are expense and income respectively
21:45:46 <chris> https://github.com/gnucash/gnucash/commit/acbcc6a1ac2d15837b893f6f1d4ff4f3bb7db900
21:47:28 <chris> so you will now be able to do networth linechart, date 31-12-17 to 31-12-18, monthly, and get true end-of-month net-worth
21:47:36 <chris> it'll be in 3.5
21:47:49 <frakturfreak> cool
21:48:39 <frakturfreak> My other question would have been if the current report includes any transaction made on the first of each month for a monthly report
21:49:16 <chris> ^which report?
21:50:20 <frakturfreak> your multicolumn reports for example (or just any monthly diagram report)
21:51:23 <chris> well, balance-sheet type reports include the report-date transactions, income-statement type reports choose appropriate period eg 1-1-18 to 31-1-18 includes transactions on these specific dates as well
21:51:32 <chris> this is by convention in gnucash code
21:52:04 <chris> multicolumn will aim to replicate
21:54:37 <frakturfreak> So for the monthly report january is basically one day two long, and every other month is shifted one day except for december.
21:54:39 <gus> hi all... regarding the errors I mentioned here yesterday (related to the price database showing some weird behavior)... I had some time today to dig into it. I built from source for both master and maint. The error still shows in the latest master, but it's fixed in maint (commit 3a48672 by John Ralls works).
21:55:16 <frakturfreak> I hope this will be fixed with the commit mentioned above
21:56:57 <frakturfreak> Anyway I’ll go to bed now
21:57:29 <gus> good night :)
21:58:08 <frakturfreak> thx
21:58:53 <chris> gus that's nice to hear and thanks for betatesting maint
21:59:12 <gus> no problem!
21:59:55 <frakturfreak> which weird behaviour?
21:59:58 <chris> frakturfreak if you want networth 'at the beginning of each month' you'll need to choose last date of previous month
22:00:53 <gus> frakturfreak: the version in master may hide some entries in the price database
22:01:24 <gus> I found this while going through the tutorial (I'm brand new to gnucash) and trying the multicurrency exercise with Hong Kong Dollars
22:02:05 <gus> I managed to get automatic quotes working, but somehow the price database wasn't showing all info
22:02:14 <gus> I was left with some quotes that were just hidden
22:02:29 <gus> I had accounts in Euros and Hong Kong Dollars, but only the quotes for Euros were showing
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22:07:00 <gus> sorry... I got disconnected and then this started complaining about "gus" being in use already (shrug)
22:07:26 <fell> frakturfreak, hast du Lust, binnen der nächsten 2 Wochen, was an de.po zu machen?
22:09:32 <fell> und die Fallstricke von HGB etc. im deutschen Teil des wikis zu dokumentieren?
22:14:08 <fell> SomeBloke: your crash seem to happen, when the program creates a backup file. Can you check the access rights of your gnucash data directory?
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22:18:07 <gus> just checking: I'm assuming that the SQL backends support the entire feature set. Is that fair to say? Or is any of them behind and XML is preferred?
22:18:40 <chris> SQL should support all features
22:18:49 <gus> great
22:19:23 <chris> except XML's automatic backups
22:19:33 <chris> so you'll need to enable your own backup strategy
22:19:39 <gus> yeah, sure.. that's fine
22:19:49 <gus> I still trust that more than an XML file :)
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22:28:40 <gus> pardon if this is a dumb question... what's the best way to input data from a mobile device? (Android in my case.) I saw a gnucash something app, but I read that it's a separate project. Also, it looks like interaction with gnucash is based on importing/exporting files, which is far from practical from my perspective. Does anyone know of a better workflow?
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22:30:05 <fell> gus: I not.
22:30:08 <gus> I assume that given gnucash's support for SQL backends, interaction based on file interchange shouldn't be needed. The app could connect to the same database.
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22:30:19 <chris> no!
22:30:28 <gus> ha! I was kind of expecting that :)
22:30:32 <chris> :)
22:30:49 <chris> only the libgnucash engine is allowed to read/write xml/sql database
22:31:14 <chris> or you can repair some xml errors in a text editor
22:31:43 <chris> however many people read from SQL for custom reports
22:31:47 <fell> Before you build from master, you should rebase that on maint. Most of us are currently too lazy to do it after each commit.
22:33:50 <chris> fell i've fixed balsheet-pnl footer text which should be translatable... but the idea is that this footer text shouldn't necessarily be translated because it's meant to be temporary while users try different options/datafiles until bugs are shaken out
22:35:01 <fell> Gus, you could write a guile or python script calling the gnucash engine for your import.
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22:35:07 <gus> I'm curious: is libgnucash safe for simultaneous access when talking to the same backend? What if I exposed libgnucash as a public API on top of an SQL backend, and had more than one gnucash app consuming from it?
22:35:22 <gus> ah, that's exactly what I was writing
22:35:28 <gus> well... more or less
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22:36:32 <fell> Currently still only 1 user must write.
22:36:48 <gus> got it
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22:42:55 <fell> chris: you can tell it the translators by inserting a line: ';; Translators: This string has low priority.' or similar.7
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22:46:30 <fell> Minor issue: opthelp-* shiuld be full sentences.
22:48:02 <fell> I am wonderig if we can collect common options in one module to avoid typos.
22:49:18 <gus> almost 1am here... time for bed. Good night all! Thanks for your answers!
22:49:53 <fell> Welcome and good night, Gus!
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