2019-02-08 GnuCash IRC logs
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02:32:08 <chris> jralls it seems that if I enter a book-option in business-prefs.scm it *does* get automagically saved in the <book:slots> \o/ so I'm sure I'll be able to modify date-utilities.scm to use BOOK-specific accounting period
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03:14:05 <fell> chris: you should take 1. book options, 2. user preferences as default for the report options, where ever possible. But I think a report usually not write to took options or user prefs.
03:15:13 <fell> should
03:16:31 <fell> @tell chris you should take 1. book options, 2. user preferences as default for the report options, where ever possible. But I think a report should usually not write to took options or user prefs
03:16:31 <gncbot> fell: The operation succeeded.
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04:59:48 <chris> comments on book-accounting-period welcome! :D
04:59:48 <gncbot> chris: Sent 1 hour and 43 minutes ago: <fell> you should take 1. book options, 2. user preferences as default for the report options, where ever possible. But I think a report should usually not write to took options or user prefs
05:00:50 <chris> fell don't worry report won't write to book-options... i've added in maint-scheme-progress the groundwork for specifying 'fy-end' absolute date book-option. so, any report will now be able to specify 'book-accounting-period' as dates.
05:01:00 <chris> someone please test maint-scheme-progress
05:05:35 <chris> fao warlord I'm not entirely convinced the book fy-end property should use relative dates... however it can be added in
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07:21:58 <warlord> chris, think about it this way: when running reports I get "start of current year" and "end of current year".. and "start of previous year" and "end of previous year". So why should FY properties be different than CY properties?
07:24:52 <chris> hm i understand this however i'd think 'too many fy options'
07:32:54 <chris> plus, the book-fy-end property doesn't follow usual relative-date eg australia uses fy-end = 30-june
07:39:01 <warlord> chris, that was the point -- we can't know what all the farious FY end dates can be, but being able to say "my FY ends on June 30" and then be able to say, in reports, "this fiscal year start/end" and "last fiscal year start/end" would be ideal.
07:39:14 <warlord> Having to go an CHANGE the FY date every year is just wrong.
07:39:21 <warlord> go and...
07:39:47 <warlord> The point being to allow the user to set their own FY end date based on local rules.
07:40:38 <chris> ok. we can make one assumption - 1 fy = 12 months
07:41:11 <chris> the book-option FY-end setting could be set as an absolute date (eg 30/6/18), or relative (end of last year)
07:41:27 <chris> what we CANT do is set something like '30-june'
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07:41:51 <chris> (or, I don't want to code this option)
07:43:46 <warlord> Why can't we do that?
07:44:11 <chris> there's no date-control for a day+month!
07:45:41 <warlord> Why can't we use the standard date control and just ignore the year?
07:46:08 <chris> could do, but this would be confusing isn't it?
07:46:37 <warlord> I think the current behavior is even more confusing.
07:47:02 <chris> i've seen the logic for taxtxf to seek the last fy dates and it's not pretty
07:47:40 <warlord> In C/C++ it is easy -- convert to a d,m,y -- then convert back using d,m,this-y
07:48:53 <warlord> We can also just read out the day and month of the date-picker.. and always display it using the "current" year.
07:49:03 <warlord> (in the properties window)
07:49:39 <chris> no, need to confirm (if (= this-y y) (if (= this-m m) (< this-d d)... ) etc. if we assume FY-end of 31-mar then today's 'last financial year' is 31-mar-2018.... and in a few months' time 'last financial year' is 31-mar-2019.
07:50:34 <warlord> Yes.. but the exact same logic is needed for "current year start/end" and "previous year start/end". So I don't see how the logic is any different.
07:50:59 <warlord> The only difference is whether you are specifically looking at 12/31 or some other arbitrary date.
07:51:15 <warlord> And if you convert it to a canonical Time64 then the comparison is easy.
07:51:40 <chris> i'm still not convinced... and would put it through a popular vote...
07:51:47 <chris> s/and/but
07:52:08 <warlord> Go for it. I think the majority of users hate the fact that FY dates are not relative.
07:53:00 <gjanssens> chris: a fy can be different from 12 months here :(
07:53:12 <gjanssens> It's exceptional but it happens when starting a new business
07:53:54 <chris> ok we can definitely have a book-specific fy-start fy-end
07:53:56 <gjanssens> Most accounting packages around here store fiscal years as a separate data set and the user is supposed to create one set for each year
07:54:00 <warlord> gjanssens, sure, but it's unlikely a business will have any transactions before the start of that short year.
07:54:17 <gjanssens> warlord: it can actually be a long year, like a year and two months
07:54:57 <gjanssens> Having said that I don't know of gnucash is the target accounting package for such companies...
07:57:32 <chris> so,
07:57:54 <chris> if we assume we want book-specific accounting-period,
07:58:00 <chris> (and I do!)
07:58:17 <chris> the question is how to encode the d/m specifier --
07:58:27 <chris> (1) d/m/y and change every year? (I don't mind)
07:58:56 <chris> (2) d/m/y and ignore y, and use some scheme magic to infer the 'current-fy-year' 'last-fy-year'?
07:59:30 <chris> (3) because I know the relative-dates list is inadequate -- oz fy ends 30/june and isn't in the list
08:00:03 <gjanssens> 3 is a bad option
08:00:22 <gjanssens> Companies here are free to choose their fy at startup
08:00:38 <gjanssens> So we have fy endings about every month for some company
08:01:01 <gjanssens> I hate changing every year (call me lazy)
08:01:26 <gjanssens> So option 2 so far is the best, just make it clear in the ui the year is ignored
08:02:17 <chris> ok, we had a popular vote and chris is beaten 2-to-1
08:02:38 <chris> please review maint-bugfixes when it's refreshed later today
08:02:49 <chris> (PR #454)
08:03:03 <gjanssens> It's only ver tiny poll with 3 people right ?
08:04:41 <chris> even thinking about (2), let's say fy-start = 1/jan/2017 and fy-end = 1/mar/2019, (14-month FY), how exactly do we want them to ignore the year?
08:05:55 <chris> conversely fy-start = 01-june-2016 fy-end = 01-march-2017, and it's now feb 2019, what exactly is "last financial year"?
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08:11:13 <gjanssens> chris: I chose 2 on the assumption we ignore these odd fiscal years.
08:11:48 <gjanssens> In Belgium they are only allowed as first fiscal year. Subsequent fiscal years should be 12 months also
08:12:13 <gjanssens> For that first year, the reports can still be configured with absolute dates
08:16:55 <chris> well if I can make it work in scheme, there will be some hackiness coming
08:37:09 <warlord> chris, I think it would be best to be able to change a d/m/y to a number, then you can compute a few numbers for d/m/<this-calendar-year>, d/m/<last-calendar-year>, d/m/<next-calendar-year>, and <today> --- that will tell you which FY today is in.
08:38:31 <warlord> I suppose you could just compute X = d/m/<this-calendar-year> vs <today>. If <today> > X then we're in the FY <TCY - NCY>. If today < X then we're in the FY <LCY - TCY>.
08:39:07 <warlord> (this all presupposes a d/m/y -> <int64> API -- which I am pretty sure exists in C)
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08:45:46 <gjanssens> Another potential simplification is this: can a fy be closed on any day other than the last day of a month ?
08:45:57 <gjanssens> If not, you only have to ask for the month really
08:46:12 <gjanssens> I don't know of any examples here that don't close on month end
08:46:30 <gjanssens> However a poll in gnucash-user or gnucash-devel may add more info
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08:54:14 <chris> gjansses https://www.gov.uk/self-assessment-tax-returns/deadlines -> this deserves a lolol meme
09:00:32 <gjanssens> Cool...
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09:00:45 <gjanssens> So yeah a day may be needed as well
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09:07:32 <chris> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiscal_year and for the record I would still prefer absolute dates (less opaque calculations)
09:09:25 <warlord> chris, let's say I put in FY 7/1/16 - 6/30/17 --- and forget to change it -- and now it is 2/8/2019. If I print a report for "current FY", what should it display?
09:09:53 <warlord> If I ask it to print "previous FY", what should it display?
09:10:05 <chris> well the TR date option wouldn't be "current FY" but would be "start of book accounting period" to "end of book accounting period"
09:10:45 <warlord> That gets to be much more work for multi-year books.
09:10:59 <warlord> IMHO, it requires remembering where to go to change that.
09:11:47 <warlord> At least here in the US, once you set up a FY for a company, that's the FY (e.g. 7/1 - 6/30), and that's "the year". Having to go back every year to adjust it just seems silly to me, and seems like it could be more prone to mistakes.
09:12:03 * warlord is thinking about user experience -- not ease-of-programming
09:12:24 <chris> IMHO the concept of 'financial year', although is central to a bookkeeping sw like gnucash, is too complex requiring Olson-type updating regularly
09:12:46 <warlord> Sorry -- why does it require regular updating?
09:12:51 * gjanssens never heard of Olson-type updating
09:13:03 <chris> Olson's tz database
09:13:20 <chris> i was even thinking of preset dates 'uk 5/4, au 30/6, in 31/3...'
09:13:51 <gjanssens> That's probably why accounting packages here have users declare each year
09:14:11 <gjanssens> with a starting date and ending date
09:14:34 <gjanssens> The software of course makes helpful suggestions so on 99% of the cases the proposed values are correct
09:15:11 <gjanssens> The nice thing about this is you can easily request reports for previous fiscal years, by just selecting that fy
09:15:19 <gjanssens> Instead of having to enter two dates
09:15:47 <chris> https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/228.html has a list
09:15:51 <warlord> exactly -- it makes it much easier to report on multiple FYs simultaneously without having to change book properties (and dirty the book data!)
09:15:52 <gjanssens> Of course that's geared towards business accounting where the accounting periods play a much more important role than in personal accounting
09:16:12 <warlord> at least here in the US, even a small business can choose a FY != CY
09:16:24 <warlord> Most don't.. but it is an option.
09:16:38 <warlord> (I have no data to back up my belief that most don't)
09:17:52 <chris> ok how about a preset list, 31/12, 30/6, 31/3... as well as a "Custom..." with freestanding d/m number fields
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09:19:48 <chris> (if dirtying the book slots is a concern I can understand)
09:22:24 <warlord> I am fine with a preset d-m list with custom entry (note that it should be localized)
09:24:55 <warlord> So in en_US the list should present as 12/31, 6/30, 3/31, ...
09:25:04 <warlord> (although... do we need 12/31?)
09:26:58 * chris thinks this discussion going too complicated
09:27:12 <chris> the idea of book-fy-end was meant to be a single time64 date
09:27:26 <chris> to aid in transaction-report start & end dates
09:27:38 <chris> taxtxf.scm already does its own thing and /me refuses to touch it
09:28:08 <chris> maint-bugfixes imho is a very functional approach....
09:28:13 * warlord was thinking of you fixing the current "period" report start/end problems.
09:29:56 <chris> I believe https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/pull/454/commits/9da21691fda1bfd05e64dd517cf9d0637d84056b is a fairly 'elegant' approach, and makes zero assumptions about the meaning of 'fiscal' or anything
09:32:25 * warlord will take a look later -- have a $DayJob task to get completed first.
09:32:39 <chris> sure
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11:10:37 <hendrik2> hi all, can I have two dates for one transaction? One on each side?
11:10:50 <hendrik2> Or do I have to use a cross-account for that?
11:13:18 <warlord> You need 2 accounts.
11:13:41 <warlord> generally, IMHO, the date should be when you initiate the transaction, and just ignore the "when it hits the other side."
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11:14:34 <hendrik2> MOst often I do it just like that, but now I wanted to check the other account and then the order is incorrect. But OK thanks
11:16:31 <warlord> I wouldn't worry about the order -- just use the 'cleared' flag and then use the cleared balance.
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13:26:05 <jralls> chris: Then customize the scheme wrapper to return #f if the returned value is INT64_MAX. Your C wrapper doesn't do what you want because 0 is a legitimate time64 value, it's 1970-01-01 00:00:00.
13:30:59 <jralls> Holy cow, the UK is still basing its tax year on Lady Day?
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20:57:24 <chris> .
20:58:21 <chris> jralls functions xaccAccountGetLastReconcileDate/xaccAccountRetLastReconcileDate there's no scheme wrapper...
20:59:57 <chris> https://github.com/christopherlam/gnucash/commit/34fd511d24233744bcca4c9f94d53f7e311d1def#diff-91127056f255171d62897b05580358a3R87 shows a two step approach which handles unreconciled-accounts
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