2019-01-10 GnuCash IRC logs
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01:30:09 <ordex> hey guys I am still looking for a way to see the "status of my accounts" after a budget period, if possible at all. any hint? :]
01:45:28 <chris> none here uses budget - i suggest ask the mailing list
01:56:17 <ordex> alright - will give it a try, thanks for the suggestion chris
01:56:42 <ordex> but, does it mean that you use any other strategy for planning future expenses and income?
01:57:47 <chris> simple. spend less than you earn. i don't need gnucash for this.
01:58:47 <ordex> uhm, ok
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04:17:02 <gjanssens> .
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04:33:35 <Laurentius> Hello!
04:33:42 <Laurentius> in my organization (a non-profit association), we currently use a closed-source accounting software that I find terrible, and I would like to move to something else
04:33:57 <Laurentius> however, in the free software world gnucash is missing some features (most notably, project accounting) and an ERP like Odoo is overkill - and I don't see anything in the middle
04:34:22 <Laurentius> I was wondering whether it is possible to fund the development of those missing features. Personally, I prefer to spend money to support free software development than to pay the license of a closed-source software that I don't even like.
04:34:46 <Laurentius> I suppose the best thing would be to write to the gnucash-devel mailing list. However, as a first step... do you think it would be possible? Do you have any recommendations on how to proceed?
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05:01:56 <gjanssens> Laurentius: what does project accounting mean for you ?
05:12:46 <Laurentius> being able to attach each expense (or income) to a specific project. The usual account structure is usually based on the nature of the expense (e.g., buying equipment, salaries, insurance, phone...); but each expense may be linked to a specific project (like "organizing conference X").
05:14:13 <Laurentius> Official financial statements (for legal and tax purposes) use the first classification. However internally (for planning and budgeting) I care mostly about projects, i.e., what is the goal of the expense.
05:14:36 <Laurentius> I'm not an accountant and I have limited experience here. I've found that in Italy (where I'm from) the term that most people use is having "cost centers".
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05:19:10 <gjanssens> Ah, ok.
05:19:36 <gjanssens> There's indeed not something like that in GnuCash, although you can assign bills and invoices to jobs.
05:20:07 <gjanssens> You may be able to set up something similar that way.
05:20:21 <gjanssens> But I have no experience with jobs so I can't give much advice.
05:20:39 <gjanssens> Perhaps warlord has more ideas (but it's still night where he lives)
05:21:18 <gjanssens> As for funding the development, you may ask around indeed.
05:22:20 <gjanssens> I have made paid contributions in the past but unfortunately I won't have time in the coming months to step in and discuss options.
05:22:29 <Laurentius> I've seen this is a recurring topic on mailing list (I've found a few threads) and there are a few workarounds, including using client functions; however, I presume that this would be incompatible with having proper clients
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06:55:54 <fell> Laurentius, probably you should read about 'contabilità dei costi di supporto'?
06:58:24 <Laurentius> fell, are you referring to gnucash documentation or something else?
06:58:35 <fell> or 'analisi dei fattori di costo'
06:59:08 <fell> No, we have it not in the gnucash docs.
06:59:44 <fell> but there are standards in accounting
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07:09:37 <fell> "Calcolo delle voci di costo, centri di costo e oggetti di costo" seems to be the full term
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08:06:31 <chris> fell I guess income-gst is now settled? i forgot that a lot of discussion took place in https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/pull/177 when I was a scheme beginner
08:07:04 <chris> a further refinement could be to generate an exported .csv with summaries ready for UK's MTD bridging software, similar to .txf
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08:15:15 <gr8> Hi, I have a problem with importing transactions from a CSV file. The imported line is """somequote"" text", so it includes a quote (indicated by ""). The problem is that the initial """ is interpreted as \
08:15:58 <gr8> Also, my CSV file has some empty strings which are indicated by ...;"";... which results in a single " shown in the imported data
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08:17:45 <gr8> I don't know how to fix this. Is there some search and replace function for the description? Currently the imported data is displayed as: \somequote" text
08:22:13 <fell> chris: I have currently no time to check it. Can you add the link somewhere in the wiki?
08:23:23 <fell> BTW: Some tax files are xml, not csv.
08:25:04 <chris> well PR #177 is a conversation and not quite suited for wiki.
08:25:17 <chris> scheme can eat xml for breakfast :)
08:31:39 <gr8> Ok I solved my problem by editing the CSV manually first, replacing """ -> "\" , then ;""; -> ;; and then "" -> \"
08:32:07 <warlord> gjanssens, Laurentius -- it sounds like TAGS would be more appropriate here than leveraging the invoicing functionality.
08:33:43 <warlord> Laurentius, you should also ask on the gnucash-user mailing list -- there ARE people who use gnucash for non-profits, and they can walk you through what they do.
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08:39:17 <gjanssens> warlord: different topic - when will you complete the flathub nightly build set up ?
08:39:43 * gjanssens is gradually getting frustrated that his work has been lingering for months now...
08:40:22 <warlord> gjanssens, sorry.. I think I just need to generate a gpg key and set up a nightly -- and then just copy the data -- right?
08:40:30 <gjanssens> I think so
08:40:55 <warlord> I'm trying to decide if there is a security issue with having the docs-builder user have access to the gpg key, or if I should create a new user specifically for the flatpak build.
08:44:18 <gjanssens> What kind of security issue do you worry about ?
08:45:48 <gjanssens> warlord: the flatpak build happens locally on the system. The gpg key is used to sign the flatpak build artefacts
08:46:31 <warlord> Yes, I know, but access to the GPG key is available to the user running the flatpak build. Theoretically a developer with commit access could submit a change to the build system that leverages that and extracts the key from the system.
08:48:57 <gjanssens> True. So that would mean the gnucash GPG key gets compromised. Is the same not possible with the docs build ?
08:49:26 <gjanssens> Oh, that one doesn't use gpg I suppose...
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09:05:05 <gjanssens> warlord: so what do you propose ?
09:05:47 <gjanssens> I would think on the one hand this means we should carefully monitor proposed commits
09:06:17 <gjanssens> On the other hand we may add some infrastructure to help secure this
09:07:07 <gjanssens> I would start by setting a passphrase on the gpg key, but I see no way to pass this to flatpak-builder
09:08:09 <warlord> Yeah, I don't think that works, so for now I think I'll just live with the issue and when I spend time to upgrade the server I can look at adding a new "builder" user.
09:11:42 <gjanssens> To minimize the risk you could store the gpg keys in a directory that's not publicly known and then locally alias flatpak-builder to a script that copies/links the gpg private key into $gpg_dir, run flatpak-builder and remove the private key again
09:13:21 <gjanssens> Although I'm not sure the gpg2 --export command would work in that case
09:13:41 <warlord> Seems a bit too extreme for me.
09:14:30 <gjanssens> Whatever, I'm just exploring the boundaries of what we can do to protect the key
09:15:02 <gjanssens> I have to leave for some errands...
09:15:56 <warlord> The real solution is just create a new user.
09:16:02 <warlord> I'll consider that option.
09:16:16 <warlord> Right now my pidgin wont connect to my local XMPP server due to SSL failure.
09:16:25 <gjanssens> Yay
09:16:45 <gjanssens> However I don't see how creating a new user would protect the gpg key ?
09:18:27 <gjanssens> Or do you mean it protects against cross-(sub)-project compromise ? Like the documentation sources won't be able to compromise the flatpak gpg key ?
09:19:00 <warlord> Yes, that.
09:19:05 <gjanssens> Ok
09:19:30 <gjanssens> That's reasonable
09:19:32 <warlord> Although it still probably doesn't help, because the scripts could still access it from the flatpak build
09:19:49 <warlord> so might as well just keep it with a single user.
09:21:05 <gjanssens> That was my reasoning as well.
09:21:49 <gjanssens> And in the end we will need to trust the core devs up to some point...
09:22:27 <gjanssens> Still this may be a good argument to use a separate user
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09:23:04 <Laurentius> warlord: yes, tags would work. But there are no tags in gnucash, right?
09:23:31 <warlord> Laurentius, no, but that's a feature that would help the most people if ever implemented (similar to Quicken "Classes")
09:23:38 <gjanssens> We can restrict commit access in the gnucash-on-flatpak repo more than we would for the general repos (gnucash, gnucash-docs) as the former interacts with security sensitive data, where the others don't
09:24:02 <warlord> Perhaps. I don't think that flatpak uses a chroot like mock does.
09:24:03 <gjanssens> The same way our gitolite management repo is also more tightly restricted.
09:24:17 <chris> Laurentius you can use #hashtags in your transaction description/notes/memo, and the Transaction Report can report on these filtered transactions
09:25:07 <gjanssens> I don't know either, however if you use separate users for flatpak and documentation builds at least you do prevent cross-(sub)-project compromise
09:25:12 <warlord> chris, real tags would probably be a better solution, long term.
09:25:46 <warlord> gjanssens, except that the docs-build (or main build) of gnucash could still compromise it when the docs (or main program) are built in the flatpak builder.
09:25:47 <chris> agree - this is beyond my pay grade :/
09:25:50 <warlord> LOL
09:25:54 <warlord> You get paid?
09:26:10 <gjanssens> Oh, right. Silly me :(
09:26:44 <chris> that's my last month pay https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/pulse/monthly
09:26:53 <gjanssens> So indeed there's not much advantage in using a separate user
09:28:50 <gjanssens> And now I'm off...
09:28:58 <chris> bye gjanssens
09:33:10 <warlord> See you, gjanssens
09:41:15 <Laurentius> chris: hashtags may be an idea to identify the transaction. Then I would need a way to get a summary (at least the sum for each hashtag); I imagine this could be done by writing a custom report in scheme?
09:41:39 <chris> no, use the transaction report and explore the 'filter' tab
09:41:59 <chris> (although writing in scheme is fun too)
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12:04:10 <marsrouter> reports gnucash 3.4 macos not showing non latin character properly
12:04:11 <marsrouter> 6:31
12:04:11 <marsrouter> any one can help ?
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14:27:57 <jralls> warlord, gjanssens: IIUC the flatpak-build command reference correctly the export and signing can be separated from the build, so gnucash-on-flatpak could leave off that part and instead just provide a signal to another user's script that does the export and sign step.
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14:30:39 <jralls> OTOH, the same concern about someone exposing the GPG key applies to the ssh keys for copying completed Windows builds to code: Someone with push to gnucash-on-windows could change build_package.ps1 to print the user's private key to the log.
14:43:59 <warlord> Yeah. I think I've convinced myself that we have to trust the committers.
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14:59:18 <Guest91> Hi!
15:00:22 <Guest91> I am considering GC. I can't tell if I can add attributes of my choice to transactions.
15:01:13 <Guest91> In Quicken, I can add a flag "Deductible Expense" and apply it to any transaction I like.
15:01:41 <jralls> GC: Depends on what you mean by attributes. GC has several free-text fields that you can use and search on, but there's no controlled vocabulary to enforce consistency.
15:02:02 <jralls> Sorry, Guest91 ^
15:02:26 <Guest91> I see. This would be something I wantto report against. I don't want to have to split every single account into deductible / not deductible sub accounts.
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15:04:36 <jralls> Guest91: That wouldn't make sense anyway. I maintain two expense account trees for that. Everything I spend money on is one or the other, there's no duplication of accounts between the trees.
15:04:49 <warlord> Guest91, GnuCash does not have "Tags" per se (like Quicken Classes), but as jralls said, you can put in any text you want, and some reports will let you filter on those text fields.
15:05:53 <Guest91> My other concern is that importing my old data from Quicken will be tough since I did it that way
15:07:26 <warlord> the classes will just be ignored and the data lost.
15:07:26 <Guest91> Another question - is using a SQL for data a mainstream, fully functional thing? Would you use it fir your real accounting 24/7?
15:07:53 <Guest91> *for
15:07:57 <warlord> you categories will get converted to Income/Expense accounts. Never hurts to TRY a QIF import to see what you get.
15:08:15 <warlord> *I* don't recommend it, yet.. But there are people using it.
15:08:39 <jralls> I use SQL for my primary account file. Eat your own dog food and all that... It's fully functional but not bug-free.
15:08:53 <Guest91> I see. Good to know
15:09:32 <jralls> Most of the wrinkles are with MySQL and Postgresql. We get far fewer reports of trouble from SQLite3 users.
15:09:52 <Guest91> I haven't upgraded Quicken for years - the new version doesn't allow exporting transactions at all!
15:10:31 <Guest91> I'd love to dump my transactions, tweak accounts and such and bring them back in
15:10:46 <Guest91> I figure I could do that well in SQL
15:11:27 <Guest91> I think its GnuCash or spreadsheets at this point lol
15:13:51 <Guest91> What client would you use (in Windows) to write SQLite scripts and queries?
15:13:52 <warlord> Guest91, you cannot attach gnucash to an existing DB-of-data. You need to import the data into GnuCash using one of the many import methods
15:15:15 <Guest91> I'm imaging Quicken->QIF->GC
15:16:30 <Guest91> Then perhaps I can make changes to the data in SQL, unless that is more complicated than I am ready for.
15:16:52 <Guest91> I assume I could export / change / import easier in GC than in what I have
15:19:36 <gjanssens> jralls: in bug 796905 your last line is "The Guile folks inform me that Guile 2.2 has had the ports system completely rewritten so we're not likely to make much progress with this or bug 796728 until we can get the Windows AIO to use it."
15:19:40 <gjanssens> What is Windows AIO ?
15:23:56 <jralls> The All-In-One bundle that we package.
15:24:51 <jralls> I haven't so far been able to get Guile 2.2 to build in Windows, though I haven't had time to try since I wrote that.
15:27:17 <warlord> Guest91, modification of data outside of GnuCash (i.e., not using the GnuCash APIs) is not supported.
15:27:54 <Guest91> I assumed not :)
15:28:02 <warlord> However, yes, you could export from quicken, try an import into GnuCash, then make changes to the QIF, reset gnucash, and rerun the import until it imports correctly.
15:28:16 <Guest91> How about CSV?
15:28:31 <Guest91> The more I lean about QIF the less I like it.
15:28:39 <warlord> QIF is better
15:28:42 <warlord> IMHO
15:29:31 <warlord> There is a lot more data you can control in a QIF import than in CSV.
15:29:42 <Guest91> I write ETLs all day long at work, but QIF, at least as emitted by Quicken, is quite frustrating for me
15:29:46 <warlord> QIF deals with multi-splits better, stocks better, ...
15:30:03 <Guest91> Ah yes, splits would be messy
15:30:17 <warlord> It's all _<data> (where _ is a single-character key)
15:30:31 <warlord> Once you learn the dozen or two keys, it's all pretty straightforward.
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15:32:34 <Guest91> I'll finish my QIF->SQL->QIF work, and I could use that'
15:33:55 <warlord> That could work.
15:34:02 <Guest91> That would let me build my account list with changes for deductible transactions.
15:34:36 <Guest91> You say you have different account trees for deductible / non-deductible transactions?
15:35:42 <Guest91> I envisioned [food / deductible], [food / not-deductible]
15:36:51 <Guest91> Hoping the reporting rolls those up. Most of my accounting and budgeting needs don't center on if I can deduct. That's why the hacky flag worked for me I guess
15:37:31 <jralls> I'd do it expenses:deductable:food and expenses:taxable:food, but food seems a poor example. Under what circumstances can you deduct food?
15:39:19 <jralls> So in my tree I have expenses:taxable:food and deductibles like expenses:deductible:donations
15:39:38 <Guest91> It is a silly example. A real one would be electronics / telecom
15:39:54 <Guest91> Some of my phone stuff is for work
15:40:07 <Guest91> But my new cellphone case probably isnt
15:40:40 <Guest91> But I like to track my spending by telecom / PC / networking
15:42:00 <Guest91> My phone case is phone equipment, but isn't deductible
15:42:40 <jralls> Are you in the USA?
15:42:44 <Guest91> Yep
15:43:14 <Guest91> I'm a consultant so my toys are often deductible.
15:43:28 <jralls> Do you have a business that you report under Schedule C? Or are these expenses that your employer should be reimbursing?
15:43:30 <Guest91> But my battery case specifically for playing Ingress is not lol
15:43:49 <Guest91> I'm 1099, lots of different clients. They don't withhold
15:44:39 <Guest91> I am a sole proprietor, but its similar to being incorporated as far as deductions
15:45:48 <Guest91> When I travel, I can deduct meals. But only partially so they have to be tracked separately.
15:46:25 <gjanssens> jralls: ok
15:46:35 <Guest91> I'm not arguing your method, just digesting it.
15:47:39 <jralls> I hope you're under the care of an accountant. Commingling business and personal funds is really thin ice with the IRS. And no, what you're doing isn't even close to what you'd do as a corproration.
15:48:19 <Guest91> I do have a CPA. I'm sure he unwinds it all. But this is why I keep all my transactions.
15:48:46 <Guest91> Maybe there is little merit to tracking total expenditures of some type when some of them are for business and others are not. The reason for buying them is different.
15:49:16 <Guest91> I think I just got used to it because Quicken let me
15:49:26 <jralls> Exactly. You want your accounting system to model life.
15:49:42 <jralls> And GnuCash is a lot more like QuickBooks that Quicken.
15:51:14 <Guest91> I was using QuickBooks initially, and was nagged mercilessly to upgrade through the app. When I gave in and did so, it upgraded me to the next year's Quicken and suggested I might like to re-purchase QuickBooks.
15:51:35 <Guest91> I'm ready to make a change.
15:51:37 <jralls> So you really need three expense subaccounts, taxable, deductible, and business. The last might need taxable and deductable as well.
15:52:25 <Guest91> Whats the business subaccount for, as opposed to taxable / deductable?
15:52:42 <Guest91> Oh I see
15:52:46 <Guest91> hmmm
15:54:15 <jralls> You really want to segregate your business and personal finances as much as possible. Since you're filing Sched C instead of a separate 1041 for the business you have a bit of leeway, but not as much as you'd probably like.
15:55:15 <Guest91> As a Sole Proprietor, my accounts are indeed co-mingled. I have a business checking but not different CCs, Amazon account, etc. I deduct a bit of my home but its mostly a residence.
15:55:42 <Guest91> I don't look forward to an audit but all my expenses are legit and documented so I'm sure I would pull though
15:56:19 <Guest91> Food for thought, thanks
15:58:24 <jralls> Where you'd likely get into trouble is trying to deduct your cell phone, computer, and interwebitube costs. You'd need to log every hour of use and categorize it as either business or personal and use the resulting ratio to apportion the cost. That's way more work than most people are willing to do for the small resulting deduction.
16:00:34 <Guest91> Yeah I have a lot of that lol
16:07:32 <Guest91> thanks again @jralls / warlord o/
16:07:43 <jralls> You're welcome.
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