2018-10-26 GnuCash IRC logs

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03:41:52 <gjanssens> .
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03:54:29 <stummi> Hello, I have some issues importing transactions from CSV for accounts set to fraction smaller than default. GnuCash seems to create imbalance transactions for these transaction and I don't know why. I managed to made a test case
03:54:56 <stummi> I am just importing a one liner csv file: interests;2018-10-26 00:00:00;Test;0.009
03:55:40 <stummi> and this is the result: https://i.imgur.com/NUbNUcu.png
03:56:09 <stummi> I have no idea why it creates the "Imbalance-USD" account and where the 0.01 comes from
03:56:14 <stummi> any hints?
03:56:42 <stummi> let me know if there is some more information I could provide
03:58:15 <stummi> screenshot of the transactions page: https://i.imgur.com/ellJKzP.png
04:12:43 <gjanssens> stummi: can you create the 0.009 transaction correctly manually ?
04:14:05 <stummi> let me try...
04:14:41 <stummi> gjanssens, it creates the same imbalance entry
04:14:55 <gjanssens> That's what I feared
04:15:04 <stummi> same issue. So its not CSV-import-Related. Good hint
04:15:05 <gjanssens> The issue is not in CSV import
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04:15:17 <gjanssens> ISTR there is a bug report for this
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04:17:10 <gjanssens> https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=408444
04:17:25 <gjanssens> https://bugs.gnucash.org/show_bug.cgi?id=427948
04:17:53 <stummi> hm, okay. Thanks
04:18:50 <gjanssens> You're welcome, though that's not really helpful...
04:21:03 <stummi> at least I know its a bug and me using the software wrong ;)
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07:54:41 <stummi> gjanssens, are you a developer? I decided to take some dive into the code and I think I may have found the issue, but I am not sure if my approach of fixing it is correct
07:56:48 <stummi> Split.c:1318 should be get_commodity_denom instead of get_currency_demon, if both ifs above are true. At least its how I think of it
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09:51:29 <gjanssens> stummi: thanks for digging in!
09:52:14 <gjanssens> I can't check now, but I'll do so later (unless jralls beats me to it)
09:52:57 * gjanssens is busy with $REALLIFE issues atm
09:53:42 <stummi> RL always has priority :) There is another point I am looking at right now, and may issue a PR when done
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10:16:42 <gjanssens> cool
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10:19:54 <stummi> there it is: https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash/pull/430
10:22:02 <warlord> stummi: there are two "number" amounts in a Split the Split Amount and the Split Value. The Split Amount is denoted in the Split->Account->Commodity. The Split VALUE is denoted in the Split->Transaction->Currency. I think your patch might break this invariant.
10:22:27 <warlord> There is no such thing as US$0.001 because the smallest USD representation is $0.01
10:23:18 <chris> always nice to have a fresh pair of eyes though, need to create some tests
10:27:14 <warlord> True; I just don't think this change is technically correct.
10:28:28 <stummi> warlord, maybe I have a misunderstanding here, but I don't see how all of that would make sense than for a accounting suite
10:28:45 <stummi> transactions with a value out of the currencies bound does not exist per definition?
10:29:33 <warlord> stummi: the accounting suite is modeling real life. You cannot have a fraction of a penny in your pocket.
10:29:52 <stummi> you can have a fraction of pennies in bank accounts though
10:30:09 <warlord> Show me a single bank account that lets you have a fraction of a penny.
10:31:27 <stummi> well, not exactly a bank, but mintos, for example
10:32:20 <stummi> Also, whats the idea behind letting the user choose the SCU when creating a new account?
10:33:08 <warlord> Because sometimes they might want a smaller SCU than allowed by the currency. For example, the US Govt denotes taxes in whole dollars, so you could set your SCU to 0
10:33:32 <warlord> The Account SCU can be smaller than allowed, but not larger.
10:33:53 <warlord> As for Mintos, I would treat that the same way I would treat Bitcoin -- as a commodity.
10:34:48 <warlord> I have a Vanguard mutual fund that is priced 1:1 with USD, but it can hold 0.001 shares. But that's okay, GnuCash handles that just fine.
10:35:27 <warlord> The reason is that the *price* is computed; wheras the Amount and Value are fixed and stored. So I can say that I got 1.001 shares for $1.00 and gnucash handles that just fine.
10:35:45 <stummi> hm, so I have to create a own commodity like Mintos-EUR, or something?
10:36:42 <warlord> That's how I would do it.
10:38:14 <stummi> well, thanks
10:38:34 <stummi> so the actual bug behind this is the wizard when selecting new account that lets the user choose a larger SCU than the currency allows
10:40:53 <warlord> It's worse than that, because the Account SCU is ambiguous when Account->commodity != Transaction->currency
10:45:35 <warlord> But yes, it would be better if the Account creation/edit function were more reactive and reset the available SCU values based on the currency/commodity choice.
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10:47:55 <chris> interesting how *everyone* keeps pushing gnucash's limits
10:56:53 <warlord> chris: of course they do! :)
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11:22:27 <john> jralls: Thanks!!!!! That removed/hid the Rate column from each of the account register displays that had it showing.
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14:28:49 <jralls> warlord: stummi's complaint is at least partly valid even if we were to limit the account SCU to being no smaller than the commodity SCU. As the code currently stands split amounts and values are always rounded to the commodity SCU regardless of whether the account SCU is larger or smaller.
14:30:48 <warlord> Is it? The way I read the code that was being changed they were being rounded accordingly.
14:31:08 <jralls> Where?
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14:31:42 <warlord> Looking at his PR; it looks like he changed the rounding of the value from currency to commodity.
14:32:49 <jralls> That's one change, because currency is always the transaction currency and commodity is the split commodity. The other change retrieves the account SCU instead of the commodity SCU.
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14:33:28 <jralls> BUT, allowing any SCU other than the commodity SCU opens a can of worms.
14:34:07 <warlord> unless the account SCU is smaller.
14:36:35 <jralls> Suppose you have a transaction for $2.75 between an account with the regular SCU of 100 and another with an SCU of 1. The second account will round the amount to 3.00. we can either leave the value at 2.75 which will let the transaction balance but will put the Balance Sheet out of balance or we can set the value to $3.00 which will create an imbalance split for $.25.
14:36:52 <jralls> Either way users will be confused and complain.
14:38:15 <warlord> True.
14:45:58 <jralls> So one could argue that we should remove the Account SCU. I don't think that one can argue that if we allow it we should limit it to being < commodity SCU even if there's no such thing as a fraction of a penny.
14:50:47 <warlord> also true
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14:55:45 <jralls> So what's the way forward? ISTM removing account SCU is too big a change for 3.x: It affects UI, the schema, and around 38 calls to xaccAccountGetCommoditySCU.
15:01:35 <jralls> I guess there's a third way: Force all amounts in the transaction to round to the smallest SCU, so in my example both splits have an amount of $3.00.
15:15:39 <jralls> I think that's where stummi's change is trying to go but he's assuming that all of the accounts will have the same SCU.
15:19:42 <warlord> Too bad we can't just use it to limit the viewed amount, but of course that would also confuse users.
15:25:56 <jralls> It would make them crazy. Suppose there's a .02 out of balance but the account doesn't display enough digits to see it.
15:27:49 <warlord> I'm honestly not sure why an Account SCU was ever put into the app.
15:27:49 <jralls> It occurs to me that there's another problem stummi's example points out: The Income account is getting a banker's round and the Bank account is getting a nearest round so the former gets 0 and the latter .01, leading to the .01 imbalance.
15:28:19 <jralls> I bet it came before commodities.
15:29:20 <warlord> Could be. Also at one point each account had both a commodity AND an currency (the commodity could be a currency, too, of course)
15:29:47 <jralls> There are periodic requests to put that back.
15:30:29 <warlord> I'm sure.
15:30:52 <jralls> But no, in 1.4 Account had a currency and a commodity but no SCU.
15:32:42 <warlord> I DO understand why the account currency was removed -- how would you reconcile a transaction between Acct 1 (commodity A, Currency x) and Acct 2 (commodity B, currency y)?
15:34:52 <jralls> You mean balance a transaction, I suppose. How would you do it now? Currencies X and Y are still there, they're just derived from commodity of the first ancestor account denominated in a currecny.
15:35:54 <warlord> Oh, and yes, there was a FIFTH commodity, the transaction currency.
15:36:31 <warlord> But yes, how would you balance it? Split1->Amount is in A, Split1->Value is in x, Split2->Amount is in B, Split2->Value is in y
15:38:50 <jralls> The code finds the prices for A->x, B->y, x->z, and y->z where z is the transaction currency. The split values are in z, regardless of what the account currencies are.
15:39:31 <warlord> That could be insanely confusing ;)
15:39:41 <jralls> It's no different now except that the old way it was less work to figure out what x and y are.
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15:40:45 <warlord> In all cases it's nearly impossible to determine z
15:41:41 <jralls> No, it's most likely to be one of x or y. This isn't uncommon, chf was complaining about it the other day.
15:42:40 <jralls> He has stocks that trade in EUR and others that trade in USD, but he holds them all in street name in a single EUR brokerage account.
15:45:09 <jralls> Right now he has to have two Asset sub-accounts to the brokerage account, stocks-EUR and stocks-USD, each denominated in the appropriate currency.
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15:49:22 <warlord> yeah.
15:52:40 <jralls> Z may be A or B, too. It's whatever is the commodity for the account you start the transaction in, unless you're in a ledger/journal register. In that case it's the root-account commodity.
15:53:42 <warlord> only if A or B is a currency. Z must be a currency.
15:56:14 <jralls> Hmm. I don't know offhand what it would fall back to if it's not. Since it needs to look up x or y to get a price it could go for that or it could go for the book currency. In your hypothetical the book currency would be better because there's sure to be rates for x->book and y->book in the pricedb but not necessarily x->y.
16:02:14 <jralls> BTW, it's not as hypothetical as you might think: Both Royal Dutch Shell and Unilever are dual-listed on the London and Amsterdam exchanges. Thanks to Brexit both have comtemplated delisting in London, converting all of the GBP shares to EUR shares on the Amsterdam exchange.
16:04:12 <warlord> huh
16:07:11 <gjanssens> jralls: a wild thought on the accounts in same currency with different scu: can't we internally treat them as different currencies and apply the concept of an 'exchange rate' ?
16:07:37 <gjanssens> I don't know if it ever really matters though.
16:08:09 <gjanssens> But ISTR there are countries in the world where banks use a different scu than for cash in the same currency
16:08:24 <gjanssens> Too late tonight to go dig for more details though
16:08:45 <gjanssens> I'm almost ready for bed.
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16:10:48 <jralls> OK. There are places with low-value currencies that insist on having pennies. Effectively the smallest currency is 100 or 1000, but we've had locals from Indonesia tell us that they still have to keep their books to the penny.
16:12:38 <jralls> I think having an exchange rate between different SCU accounts would force using trading accounts.
16:14:37 <jralls> The user would have to create gain/loss splits to get the trial balance sheet to balance.
16:17:47 <gjanssens> Ok.
16:18:02 <gjanssens> I have little experience with multi-currency accounting.
16:18:17 <gjanssens> So I can't add much to this discussion
16:18:38 <jralls> Mine is all vicarious from trying to fix bugs...
16:19:02 <gjanssens> :)
16:19:25 <gjanssens> I do have a *little* experience from that source as well
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16:45:50 <r> Hello, I'm new to gnucash. I'm trying to do a transaction report and am missing accounts; not sure what I may have messed up. The beginning setup is migrated checkbook accounts from quicken to gnucash. I went to Reports->Transaction reports. My question - I get _most_ of the accounts (or category) where money is going, but it is not showing a) account names that begin with a number; b) money in accounts that were part of split transactions (
16:45:51 <r> e.g. a mortgage payment broken down into parts for P, I, escrow, etc).
16:46:19 <r> Hoping for help.
16:46:27 <r> This is the setup I have for the transaction report:
16:48:22 <r> In the window for Transaction Report, Accounts tab, I have selected all accounts. I have no filters on accounts.
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16:52:11 <r> Everything that was in a split transaction (e.g. the mortgage) is under a category 'Split Transaction' instead of any of the specific accounts (e.g. principal).
16:52:58 <warlord> r: i presume you're looking in a register... click on the "show splits" button to show them.
16:53:50 <warlord> Why are you trying to use a transaction report? What data are you trying to acquire?
16:58:18 <r> I am using the Reports -> Transaction Report; not the register. I'm trying to look at my historical spending and use that for projections (e.g. how much I spend on entertainment).
16:58:37 <warlord> r: why not use the Profit and Loss report, then?
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16:59:09 <r> mm. not tried that yet.
16:59:29 <r> I'll take a look at that.
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