2017-08-09 GnuCash IRC logs
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10:14:18 <gjanssens> jralls: do you know what the functions g_get_user_data_dir and g_get_user_config_dir return on OS X?
10:14:45 <gjanssens> On linux they follow the Free Desktop xdg specification, but I don't think that applies on OS X
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10:15:29 <gjanssens> The docs describe what to expect on Windows, but apparently OS X is too obscure to document to the glib peopel :(
10:15:37 <gjanssens> s/peopel/people/
10:15:38 <jralls> gjanssens: Not offhand. Give me a couple of minutes to look at the source.
10:15:44 <gjanssens> tx
10:30:27 <jralls> gjanssens: They do the same as other Unix: Return the value stored in the applicable XDG_FOO_DIR environment variable if it's set otherwise $HOME/.local/share for data_dir and $HOME/.config for config_dir.
10:31:36 <gjanssens> jralls: Thanks. However that's not where Apple native software would store user level config and data bits, is it?
10:32:17 <gjanssens> From what I see you do in Gnucash that would rather be ~/Library/ApplicationSupport/xxx or something
10:33:19 <gjanssens> "Application Support" (with a space apparently)
10:34:21 <gjanssens> Oh well. I was mulling over https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=503722 and hoped these two glib functions would give a universal solution for the currently supported platforms.
10:34:28 <gjanssens> Guess they don't
10:34:54 <jralls> If you want to put something in ~/Library/Application Support/gnucash use gnc_get_dot_dir(). The bundle launcher script sets XDG_DATA_DIR=Gnucash.app/Contents/Resources/share and XDG_CONFIG_DIR=Gnucash.app/Contents/Resources/etc/xdg.
10:35:27 <gjanssens> Right.
10:36:19 <gjanssens> But those are actually application level, so you only put something there at install time, not at run time
10:37:01 <jralls> That's right, and it's necessary to make the Gtk stack work correctly--or at least it used to be.
10:37:12 <gjanssens> (Note the Freedesktop spec refers to XDG_DATA_DIRS and XDG_CONFIG_DIRS as paths instead of unique directories)
10:37:46 <gjanssens> Oh, and that what you set as well :)
10:38:26 <jralls> Yeah, that's a problem with glib. Some consumers of g_get_user_foo_dir will explode if you feed them a path set instead of a single path.
10:39:11 <gjanssens> XDG_DATA_HOME != XDG_DATA_DIRS
10:39:22 <gjanssens> The first is indeed a single directory, the latter a path
10:39:45 <gjanssens> As far as I know g_get_user_foo_dir uses the *HOME environment variables
10:39:50 <gjanssens> But I didn't read the code
10:39:56 <jralls> I haven't looked recently but back when I set up the XDG variables it was because gtk was using them to find config files.
10:40:12 <gjanssens> That is still does
10:40:34 <gjanssens> It's needed in gnucash to find the g_settings schemas and other stuff
10:41:16 <gjanssens> But back to what I was thinking of. By looking at the above bug, I was considering the split the contents of .gnucash
10:41:19 <jralls> g_get_user_foo_dir uses the $HOME subdirs as a fallback if the XDG variable isn't set: https://github.com/GNOME/glib/blob/master/glib/gutils.c#L1201
10:42:24 <jralls> For that bug remember that we need to force AQB to put its init file in %LOCALAPPDATA% too and then be able to find it.
10:42:55 <gjanssens> Heh, looks like we're talking next to each other (about the XDG and other variables). But that's not important
10:43:24 <gjanssens> Yes, aqbanking is another issue to solve there
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10:43:54 <gjanssens> Part of what is currently in .gnucash is realy configuration data (log.conf, config.user)
10:44:03 <jralls> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=754925 applies too.
10:44:12 <gjanssens> Others are application internally saved stad (books, checks,...)
10:44:36 <gjanssens> According to the freedesktop spec they belong in different directories
10:45:01 <jralls> Right, that's what 754925 is about.
10:46:03 <gjanssens> And I'm even not sure how I should classify saved-reporrts, though I'd think those really belong in the data file rather than in .gnucash (but that's a longer term project because it would need import/export functionality)
10:46:42 <jralls> Maybe we should bypass the GLib functions and use our own. Then we can tailor them to the platform.
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10:47:24 <gjanssens> Perhaps, but I think that's not necessary just yet.
10:48:00 <jralls> So back to first principles: In Windows configuration should go in the registry; on Mac it should go in ~/Library/Preferences/org.gnucash.gnucash, and on Linux it should go in ~/.config/gnucash.
10:48:29 <gjanssens> The current functions work fine for linux and Windows. And on OS X you have a launcher script where you can set the necessary environment variables.
10:49:37 <jralls> Yeah, but... setting those environment variables affects the whole Gtk stack, not just GnuCash and not just clients of g_get_user_foo_dir().
10:50:00 <gjanssens> I see GLib uses the same directory for user config and data on Windows.
10:50:02 <jralls> There are lots of places that query XDG_FOO_DIRS directly.
10:50:37 <gjanssens> But not many that query XDG_FOO_HOME, which is what I would ask you to add
10:50:51 <gjanssens> That's really for user data and config
10:50:59 <jralls> Well, g_get_user_config_dir and g_get_user_data_dir do. GSettings puts stuff in the registry, which is actually what M$ wants.
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10:52:03 <gjanssens> Do you propose to use GSettings to replace *all* of our config in .gnucash ?
10:52:12 <jralls> Ah, good point. That's what you meant about talking past each other.
10:53:01 <jralls> Is there a good reason *not* to use GSettings for all config? It's the facility that comes closest to following the platform standard.
10:53:17 <gjanssens> We'd have to create a XDG_FOO_HOME/gnucash directory to isolate our own user data and config from the more global data
10:53:18 <jralls> Getting Martin to use it for AQB isn't likely to happen, though.
10:53:53 <gjanssens> With such a subdir, none of gtk.glib would be affected IMO
10:55:01 <gjanssens> As for using GSettings, I'm mostly thinking of log.conf. It seems a bit overkill to make extra registry keys for that.
10:55:19 <gjanssens> Many Windows applications still have .ini file, no ?
10:55:51 <gjanssens> Or perhaps I'm away from Windows for too long to estimate this well
10:57:46 <jralls> I'm sure some do, but they're really old. The "approved" practice on NT has always been to use the registry for config and a lot else. For example M$ keeps the timezone database in the registry.
10:58:25 <jralls> As for log.conf, I wonder how many actually use that?
10:59:47 * gjanssens does :D
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11:01:05 <jralls> I never have. On the infrequent occasions I want to configure the logging I do it from the command line. I'll bet there aren't any users at all who even know about it.
11:01:26 <gjanssens> I agree
11:02:13 <gjanssens> So that's one file we can at some point drop and hence we don't have to consider it now for the data/config discussion
11:02:56 <jralls> Yup.
11:03:20 <gjanssens> Based on the "Windows way" I'd say we won't have any config data in the long run so all of what we have now in .gnucash can move to XDG_DATA_DIR
11:03:29 <gjanssens> To be cleaned up over time
11:03:34 <levi> Hi everyone. Im looking for a good accounting app for my UK Limited Company. I want to ask if anyone here use gnuCash for that purpose. I'm most interested in compliance with new GAAPs in UK like FRS 105 and FRS 102 The Financial Reporting Standards. And how well GnuCash can handle it
11:04:11 <jralls> gjanssens: OK, that makes sense to me.
11:05:03 <jralls> My wife says it's time to go find dinner, so I'll be back in a couple of hours.
11:05:11 *** jralls is now known as jralls_afk
11:05:31 <gjanssens> Ok, and how do you feel about using XDG_DATA_HOME/gnucash as that directory unconditionally ? That would require you to add a XDG_DATA_HOME to your gnucash-launcher script
11:05:51 <gjanssens> Talk to you later. I may be gone for the evening so perhaps it'll be tomorrow
11:08:49 <levi> wow gnuCash manual is incredible, this is very rare for Open apps
11:08:56 <levi> it even teach basics of accounting
11:11:03 <gjanssens> levi: glad you like it :)
11:11:49 <gjanssens> As for your other questions I know several users are in the UK (not me), but I don't know if they manage their businesses in gnucash. I seem to remember some do.
11:12:10 <gjanssens> If you don't get an answer here, the gnucash-user mailing list is another good place to ask this question
11:16:57 <levi> thx, I know there are new frameworks in UK - new GAAP based on IFRS. Now I wonder how painful it would be to do accounting by me, who not an accountant, just business owner and how hard it would be to produce annual accounts
11:17:08 <levi> of course everything with gnuCash
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12:14:35 <dryad> my credit card company allows me to download QIF files in "2-digit" or "4-digit" formats
12:14:42 <dryad> which is best for import in to gnucash?
12:22:03 <warlord> 4-digit
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12:29:06 <fell> As far as I understand the AqB stuff things like XDG-* should go in gwenhywfar.
12:35:43 <fell> @tell levi About FRS 105...: Noboby provided them until now. See https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Account_Hierarchy_Template for how to create them.
12:35:43 <gncbot> fell: The operation succeeded.
12:38:22 <fell> warlord attachments vs. inline affects all mailing lists?
12:45:15 <warlord> fell: it affects ours..
12:45:42 <fell> user, devel, ...
12:46:14 <fell> Then I will put it in the wiki
12:48:38 <warlord> Everything.
12:48:49 <warlord> Let me try it..
12:58:40 <warlord> Okay, looks like my attachment came through -core
12:58:53 *** gjanssens is now known as gjanssens_afk
12:59:15 <warlord> fell: would you like me to test -user or -devel? I suppose I can test both.
13:00:41 <fell> I can see mails with attachments in both queues
13:01:19 <fell> on de and nl, too
13:02:09 <warlord> I'm sure. I'm sending to -user and -devel as another test.
13:12:18 <warlord> Yep, that worked. So real attachments actually work.
13:12:48 <fell> https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists#Netiquette updated
13:14:43 *** jralls_afk is now known as jralls
13:17:17 <fell> BTW, is https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists#Self_Signed_Certificates still valid, warlord?
13:17:23 <warlord> fell: okay
13:17:38 <warlord> fell: no, we use LetsEncrypt now for everything (except www.gnucash.org)
13:18:03 <warlord> Stepping away for lunch. BIAB
13:18:17 <fell> That means? Can I remove the section?
13:24:09 <jralls> fell: It means that the mailing lists have a traceable CA that's recognized by all browsers. You can remove the section.
13:24:47 <fell> Thx, jralls!
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13:52:03 <dryad> i have a question about importing transactions in to gnucash, which i've never done before..
13:52:19 <dryad> so far, i've been manually entering in receipts for stuff i buy with credit cards
13:52:36 <dryad> then i manually reconcile those against what's on my credit card statement
13:52:47 <dryad> so i have a bunch of receipts in my credit card account which i've manually entered
13:53:25 <dryad> now, if i import transactions from my credit card company, wouldn't that create transactions that duplicate many/all of the ones i already entered?
13:54:38 <dryad> i don't want to just take my credit card company's word for the transactions they have records of being accurate.. i want to match them against the receipts i got and detect if there's a discrepancy: that's the whole point of reconciliation, isn't it?
13:56:24 <dryad> hmm.. but now that i think about it, i guess i could import just their data in to gnucash instead of manually entering it against my receipts, and then just visually check the receipts against the data i've imported
13:57:02 <fell> dryad: Usually the importer should detect and mark duplicates.
13:57:26 <dryad> well, that depends on what the description says, doesn't it?
13:58:12 <fell> While in the importer, you should assign the false unmatchted
13:58:30 <dryad> because sometimes i'll enter something like "Safeway" for the description, whereas in the data i'm importing it'll look like "SAFEWAY STORE09234329 NEW YORK, NY" or something
13:59:27 <fell> Make a backup and test it.
13:59:36 <dryad> yep, i'm doing that now
14:00:53 <dryad> btw, fell, if you're a gnucash developer, i wanted to thank you for your hard work.. gnucash is awesome
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14:02:09 <fell> Jralls and gjanssens are much more active this days and warlord in the past.
14:02:20 <dryad> thanks to them as well :)
14:02:37 <dryad> also, your nick reminded me of a planescape:torment character by the same name, who was pretty cool
14:02:45 <dryad> so tip of the hat on that count too :)
14:14:40 <dryad> hmm.. when i import a QIF file in to my credit card account, it winds up filling in the "Num" column for each transaction
14:14:54 <dryad> is there a way i could not have it do that?
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14:28:14 <CharlesIC> hello
14:28:22 <CharlesIC> how do i pay two invoices with one deposit/transaction?
14:28:58 <CharlesIC> i try to assign payment, but once i do the second one, it overwrites the first
14:29:36 <dryad> you could split the transaction
14:30:04 <dryad> there's a "Split" button in the menu bar at the top of the gnucash window
14:30:10 <CharlesIC> i thought i did that
14:30:15 <CharlesIC> let me see
14:30:28 <dryad> inside the split, you'll want to put in both of the invoices separately
14:30:41 <dryad> on separate lines
14:30:53 <CharlesIC> so both of the invoices are already posted
14:31:05 <CharlesIC> and then in the asset, i entered the deposit amount
14:31:14 <CharlesIC> so now im trying to assign payment of it
14:31:17 <CharlesIC> to two invoices
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14:33:18 <CharlesIC> oh i see
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14:34:50 <fell> The Payment should apply FiFo on the Txns in the register.
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14:38:25 <CharlesIC> ok, this doesn't seem to be working
14:38:32 <CharlesIC> i split it, and i go to the particular split
14:38:38 <CharlesIC> and i assign that as a payment
14:38:47 <CharlesIC> and it keeps resetting the other one each time
14:38:54 <CharlesIC> how do i record two different payments?
14:39:31 <fell> Don't split it
14:39:39 <CharlesIC> what do i do?
14:39:46 <CharlesIC> i have one deposit, i show it in my checking account
14:39:47 <warlord> CharlesIC: Or use Process Payment which is "properly" split it for each invoice.
14:39:50 <CharlesIC> and some of it is for one invoice, and some for another
14:40:04 <warlord> Let Process Payment create the transaction for you
14:40:19 <CharlesIC> ok, but the thing is, won't the balance then be off?
14:40:25 <CharlesIC> i recorded a deposit in the checking account
14:40:49 <warlord> Delete the one you created; let Process Payment create it
14:41:01 <warlord> if the balance is off you did something wrong..
14:41:18 <warlord> You're removing a txn for $100, and Processing Payment for $100. The end result should be the same in your checking account.
14:41:18 <CharlesIC> i mean i recorded the deposit, first off
14:41:26 <CharlesIC> on 8/1/2017, for x dollars
14:42:37 <CharlesIC> ok, in gnucash, in my assets, current assets, checking account
14:42:43 <CharlesIC> i have the deposit of $1,000 recorded
14:42:47 <CharlesIC> and the invoices are already posted
14:42:50 <CharlesIC> what do i do now?
14:43:23 <warlord> CharlesIC: The $1000 deposit are the invoice payments?
14:44:04 <CharlesIC> yes. and i put them as transfer/accounts rec
14:44:13 <warlord> okay. Delete that transaction
14:44:29 <CharlesIC> so i should not even put the transaction of the check deposited at the bank?
14:44:44 <warlord> You will later. Delete that deposit.
14:44:47 <CharlesIC> although it was one single check?
14:44:48 <CharlesIC> ok
14:45:21 <CharlesIC> 1,091.16
14:45:29 <warlord> Then Business -> Customer -> Process Payment for your customer.
14:45:41 <warlord> Choose the customer
14:45:52 <warlord> Enter in a payment of $1000
14:45:52 <CharlesIC> ok, the payment to the first invoice is 651.46
14:45:59 <warlord> then select the invoices that were paid.
14:47:10 <CharlesIC> yeah, the only thing is this makes two transactions in my checking account :/
14:48:16 <warlord> Did you process payment TWICE? It should create a single transaction with two splits in A/R
14:48:37 <CharlesIC> well, yeah, i did because i did the second payment for the second invoice
14:48:51 <CharlesIC> ok, i'll delete the second payment
14:49:10 <CharlesIC> ok, so i processed the first payment for 651.46
14:49:11 <CharlesIC> what do i do now?
14:51:36 <CharlesIC> ?
14:53:21 <warlord> Delete that.
14:53:32 <CharlesIC> ok, so i'm back to the beginning
14:53:33 <warlord> What part of "Process Payment for $1000" am I not being clear about?
14:53:34 <CharlesIC> what do i do?
14:53:45 <CharlesIC> i have to choose an invoice for it
14:54:00 <CharlesIC> oh, i should select both?
14:54:05 <warlord> YES
14:54:09 <CharlesIC> k
14:55:04 <CharlesIC> ok, this looks like what i'd done already
14:55:45 <warlord> Like I said originally: <warlord> Choose the customer
14:55:45 <warlord> <warlord> Enter in a payment of $1000
14:55:45 <warlord> <warlord> then select the invoices that were paid.
14:55:45 <CharlesIC> the only issue is it seems you cannot edit the amount after
14:55:55 <warlord> No, you cannot.
14:55:58 <CharlesIC> ok
14:56:07 <warlord> You should never edit business transactions
14:56:38 <warlord> It looks the same from your checking account, but it should have two splits in A/R.
14:56:50 <CharlesIC> ok
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15:05:12 <dryad> i'm simply loving the gnucash transaction importer
15:05:23 <dryad> you don't know how many thousands of receipts i've entered manually in to gnucash
15:05:56 <dryad> and doing it through the importer, though i'm sure it's very old hat for everyone else here, is just soooo much better
15:06:09 <CharlesIC> ok, i got it, thanks!
15:06:30 <CharlesIC> dryad, what do you mean?
15:07:10 <dryad> i mean it's great not to have to manually type in receipts
15:07:17 <dryad> and to just import thousands of them in
15:07:21 <dryad> saves tons of typing
15:08:16 <dryad> i know import features have been around since the stone age.. but i'm just starting to use them now myself, and just can't contain my enthusiasm
15:08:42 <dryad> i love the importer's duplicate detection too
15:08:50 <dryad> it's not perfect.. but it pretty good
15:14:17 <CharlesIC> how are you importing?
15:15:02 <dryad> File -> Import -> Import QIF...
15:15:07 <CharlesIC> oh that
15:15:23 <dryad> yep
15:16:26 <dryad> i wish i'd have started using that from the beginning.. it would have saved me a week's worth of typing
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17:45:31 <ArtGravity> Is it possible to apply one deposit as payment for invoices for more than one customer?
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