2017-03-24 GnuCash IRC logs

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01:22:05 <fell> Puh, for the first time I reached the end of de.po.
01:22:40 <fell> But still a few strings slipped through.
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03:31:56 <gjanssens> .
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05:06:52 <gjanssens> @tell jralls http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/index.php?title=MacOSX/Quartz still explains how to build gnucash 2.4 and older on MacOS tiger (due to missing webkitgtk on that platform). Is this still relevant today ? That is, does your gnucash-on-osx repo still support this ?
05:06:52 <gncbot> gjanssens: The operation succeeded.
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07:13:38 <warlord> .
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08:58:06 <lmat> jralls: I looked at it long enough not to be able to reproduce it. Work has been hectic lately, but after I get these progress dialogs in place, I should be able to swing back to this bug. I think about it almost every day.
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08:59:18 <lmat> jralls: I plan to circle back around and get better reproduction instructions. I will make a unit test that reproduces the error, then fix it. I think the problem is that I understood "/" in a name means to create a new frame. I still think that's sometimes the case, but I must have something wrong -- sometimes it's okay to have "/" in a frame name.
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10:00:54 <crimsonmane> Hello, I am having a trouble with gnucash. I wanted to track receipts according by Establishment, and to do so I had made Vendors. In this case the vendor is Target, and to itemize the receipt I made a Bill for that vendor. This allows me to track every item to different categories (grocery, clothing, tax, etc). Unfortunately there has been a glitch in the matrix and there are line items in my Expenses:Clothing and other a
10:00:54 <crimsonmane> reas. There doesn't seem to be a way to delete a bill. I tried deleting the lines, but they did not delete out of Expenses:Clothing and I can't delete them otherwise.
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11:05:33 <lmat> crimsonmane: hmm, never heard of that before :-)
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11:06:17 <lmat> crimsonmane: So you've created "bill"s, and would like to delete one?
11:06:37 <lmat> crimsonmane: I'll try to reproduce this with you?
11:09:01 <lmat> okay, New Vendor...
11:09:11 <lmat> number 1, company name: Target
11:09:46 <lmat> new bill... bill id 1 vendor target
11:09:54 <crimsonmane> The vendor is already created. the bill is already created.
11:10:05 <crimsonmane> a payment did not apply to the bill so i was getting daily reminder to pay it
11:10:06 <lmat> crimsonmane: I'm trying to reproduce ;-)
11:10:09 <crimsonmane> oh ok
11:10:12 <crimsonmane> yes, yes, and yes
11:10:22 <lmat> crimsonmane: I created a bill for Pants against Expenses:clothes
11:10:26 <lmat> quantity 1, $25
11:10:41 <lmat> crimsonmane: Now what do I do?
11:10:57 <crimsonmane> post the bill
11:11:08 <lmat> crimsonmane: Ah, I think this is wrong.
11:11:19 <lmat> or maybe not...
11:11:23 <lmat> okay, post to general ledger.
11:11:57 <crimsonmane> Business > Vendor > Process Payment
11:12:28 <crimsonmane> for some reason payment did not apply to the bill, so i showed a "pre-payment" and there is no option to mark the payment as applying to an existing bill
11:12:45 <lmat> crimsonmane: oh wow, this is weird.
11:13:19 <crimsonmane> this happens for you as well?
11:13:29 <lmat> crimsonmane: Okay, process payment. Vendor target, post to A/P amount $25. Transfer account: Assets:cash
11:13:59 <lmat> crimsonmane: Looks like it worked.
11:14:10 <lmat> The chart of accounts says "$0" on my A/P account.
11:14:19 <crimsonmane> Yes, as it did for me as well.
11:14:29 <crimsonmane> However the following day I was met with a reminder to pay the bill.
11:14:47 <crimsonmane> I noticed the payment was a "pre-payment" when viewing the vendor
11:15:11 <crimsonmane> So while the chart of accounts indicated a zero balance, the bill was still aging.
11:15:33 <crimsonmane> and I was unable to figure out how to ... i dont know the correct terms ... "aim" the pre-payment at the bill.
11:15:36 <lmat> crimsonmane: How do you "[view] the vendor"?
11:15:39 <crimsonmane> double click
11:15:54 <lmat> crimsonmane: Double click what? where?
11:16:17 <crimsonmane> from the primary Accounts tab, where "Accounts Payable" list is expanded, double click Target
11:16:34 <lmat> crimsonmane: I think that's not the vendor, it's the accounts payable account for that vendor.
11:16:39 <crimsonmane> this opens a new tab of vendor named Target
11:17:09 <lmat> crimsonmane: Where does it indicate that a payment is a prepayment?
11:18:02 <crimsonmane> In the Reference field I believe. Forgive me I've since loaded one of the saved files and cannot provide a screenshot
11:18:53 <lmat> crimsonmane: I see. In my Ref column, for the bill, I see nothing, and for the payment, I see "1".
11:19:12 <lmat> crimsonmane: Oh wait, that's not right.
11:19:14 <crimsonmane> double click the heading to expand it
11:19:30 <lmat> crimsonmane: My payment is before my bill! So my payment has nothing in the "ref" column, but the bill has "1".
11:19:36 <lmat> crimsonmane: That makes sense, because it's bill "1".
11:19:44 <lmat> crimsonmane: Is this for a small business or personal expenses?
11:19:50 <crimsonmane> Personal expenses
11:20:03 <crimsonmane> To resolve, I refunded the payment, then posted payment directly to the bill
11:21:05 <crimsonmane> However I can see how this can be problematic for a small business. In my world we will have a company send a check that applies to very specific invoices, and the remainder hangs in the balance sometimes. With gnucash there doesn't seem to be a way to apply pre-payments to any invoices/bills.
11:21:12 <lmat> crimsonmane: I highly recommend not using these features :-) These are for small businesses where there is a need to keep track of accounts payable, aging bills (and discounts), etc.
11:21:28 <lmat> crimsonmane: I see.
11:22:06 <lmat> crimsonmane: I don't use any business features. I maintain the ledger as I would by hand. So I have an A/R where I record work that I do, and I manually write up invoices betimes.
11:22:22 <crimsonmane> For my personal tracking purposes, when I made a purchase at Target I decided I wanted to track every item. Toiletries, grocery, houseware, tax, etc. The only way to do this seems to be usings Bills.
11:22:37 <lmat> crimsonmane: Not at all.
11:22:47 <lmat> crimsonmane: The way to track all that (as many have) is to subdivide your expenses.
11:23:16 <lmat> crimsonmane: You'll have an account: Expenses:Household:Toiletries:Toilet Paper and another Expenses:Household:Toiletries:Toothpaste
11:23:20 <lmat> etc. ad noseum.
11:23:43 <crimsonmane> The items are not otherwise linked to "that receipt"
11:24:07 <lmat> crimsonmane: All splits on the transaction represent the one receipt. (Do you know what a split and a transaction are?)
11:24:20 <lmat> crimsonmane: (They have very specific meanings in GNU cash)
11:24:38 <warlord> crimsonmane: you do not need to use a bill to track that; just use a regular split transaction.
11:24:56 <crimsonmane> i read in the manual an example about buying a hammer and nails.
11:25:05 <crimsonmane> a split is showing the hammer and nails separately
11:25:15 <warlord> I.e., credit Liabilities:Credit Card $100. Debit Expenses:Groceries $50, Expenses:Toiletries $25, Expenses:Houseware $25, etc.
11:25:21 <lmat> crimsonmane: They are separate :-) They debit separate accounts.
11:26:58 <crimsonmane> http://imgbox.com/tsH53Dm0
11:27:02 <crimsonmane> here's my example
11:27:11 <crimsonmane> you see that some items charge tax, grocery do not.
11:27:20 <crimsonmane> taxes automatically log in Expenses:Taxes
11:28:06 <lmat> crimsonmane: What register is that?
11:28:09 <crimsonmane> and in the bottom left, the total matches the receipt
11:28:16 <crimsonmane> that is the Bill
11:28:40 <crimsonmane> the QTY and Unit Price Columns are useful and reflect identical to the receipt
11:28:44 <crimsonmane> so this made sense to use
11:28:52 <crimsonmane> is there another way to get this affect?
11:29:54 <warlord> crimsonmane: I'm curious why you feel you need to keep track of sales taxes?
11:29:55 <lmat> crimsonmane: screen shot coming ;-)
11:30:20 <crimsonmane> warlord: it will eventually be useful to see what store carries what item at the best price
11:31:26 <crimsonmane> although, it is not easy to compare bills to other bills ... so i've already predicted that i will abandon that effort
11:31:35 <lmat> crimsonmane: http://i.imgur.com/0FO1Kqv.png
11:31:42 <warlord> crimsonmane: I dont see how the tax plays into that. Do you really care that if you pay $1.06 at store A and $1.07 at store B, that the difference is due to the tax (6% vs 7%) on the same $1 item?
11:31:58 <lmat> crimsonmane: Tools > General Ledger.
11:32:46 <crimsonmane> I did not know about Tools > General Ledger >.< !!!
11:32:49 <warlord> For me, I care that I pay $1.07 vs $1.06..
11:32:49 <crimsonmane> this is clean
11:33:02 <crimsonmane> warlord: I care about base price
11:33:04 <warlord> crimsonmane: you can also do that within an account register by:
11:33:12 <warlord> 1) clicking on the "split" button
11:33:18 <warlord> 2) View -> Split Register
11:33:28 <warlord> or 3) View -> Journal Mode
11:33:33 <warlord> crimsonmane: why?
11:33:49 <warlord> I'd care more about how much I'm paying, not the base price.
11:34:04 <crimsonmane> warlord: because it makes sense to me.
11:34:38 <crimsonmane> well shoot, you've shown me a much better way to use this software
11:34:40 <lmat> crimsonmane: Yes. Clean.
11:34:43 <warlord> crimsonmane: Why? If store A sells an item for $99.95 at 7% tax, but store B sells that same item for $100.25 but 6% tax, where would you rather go buy it?
11:34:58 <crimsonmane> the tax is the same rate at all stores here
11:35:16 <warlord> Then again, why do you care about the base price?
11:35:16 <lmat> I keep track of sales tax so that I can itemize it on 1040 schedule A.
11:35:46 <crimsonmane> warlord: partly because tax is a separate line item on receipts
11:36:32 <warlord> Unless you're a business that collects sales tax I don't think it matters.
11:37:11 <crimsonmane> it seems simpler to do my home accounting the same as at work
11:37:13 <warlord> lmat: under what conditions can you actually deduct sales tax on your 1040 schedule A? I've never been able to do that myself.
11:37:44 <warlord> crimsonmane: your business lives under different rules than your person.
11:38:01 <lmat> warlord: I have been very close, but I don't think I've actually deducted it before. Currently, a lot of my cash flow goes to relieving liabilities. If I ever get around to spend more on buying stuff, I'll incur more sales tax, and be able to deduct it ... some day
11:38:46 <warlord> I think you need to spend an awful lot (or make very little) to have that kick in?
11:39:01 <crimsonmane> 7k per year if i'm not mistaken
11:39:31 <lmat> crimsonmane: I think probably not simpler ;-) Since you don't use an Accounts Payable account to pay, e.g., Target, it's much simpler to have expense accounts debiting against liability (in the case of credit card, asset in the case of cheque or cash).
11:40:04 <lmat> warlord: I don't remember. They have a standard deduction for sales tax, and it's always a bit more than my actual. I'll do taxes in a month or so and let you know.
11:40:19 <lmat> warlord: sheesh...I don't even have a month left! I better get to work on that.
11:41:05 <lmat> crimsonmane: Well, welcome to the general ledger. I do everything there except reconcile. The first (and probably only) pain I ran into is that View > Filter By... settings aren't saved between gnucash runs, and they default to one month.
11:41:25 <warlord> You dont have a month.
11:41:34 * warlord did his taxes weeks ago and already doesn't remember.
11:41:39 <crimsonmane> i moved my CC from Liability to "Bank Accounts", and my primary checking from Assets to "Bank Accounts" ...
11:41:48 <lmat> I have had tax stuff on my desk for a couple months...I just ignore it.
11:42:05 <warlord> crimsonmane: A CC isn't a Bank Account; it's "better" to live under Liabilities.
11:42:05 <lmat> crimsonmane: Keep your CC in Liabilities. It is a loan after all ;-)
11:42:25 <crimsonmane> I couldn't figure out how to represent it properly, in terms of Max Limit
11:42:36 <warlord> I presume "Bank Accounts" is under the top-level "Assets"?
11:42:37 <lmat> I knew you were typing that, but I thought it would be better if we both said it at the same time ... for effect.
11:42:43 <warlord> crimsonmane: you cant.
11:42:48 <warlord> GnuCash doesn't have a "max limit"
11:42:51 <crimsonmane> I renamed Assets to Bank Accounts
11:43:04 <warlord> Why? There are other assets beyond banks.
11:43:17 <warlord> (and "assets" is shorter to type)
11:43:36 <crimsonmane> shorthand, use "a:v" for assets:visa
11:43:54 <warlord> but visa isn't an asset.
11:43:56 <crimsonmane> i learned that today from the startup tips
11:43:59 <warlord> l:v works just as well.
11:44:04 <crimsonmane> right
11:44:05 <warlord> (for Liabilities:Visa)
11:44:16 <lmat> crimsonmane: I have Assets::Current inside that is my chequing accounts, and cash on hand. I also have Assets::Fixed for houses. Assets::Long-Term Investments holds my retirement accounts.
11:44:24 <crimsonmane> anyway i dont know fully why I did it, exept that it didn't seem to matter
11:44:39 <crimsonmane> i don't have those extra assets
11:44:42 <lmat> crimsonmane: and of course Assets::Accounts Receivable
11:44:44 <warlord> It might matter for reports.
11:44:55 <warlord> lmat: but you don't need AR for personal accounts.
11:44:59 <lmat> crimsonmane: and Assets::<house> Escrow
11:45:07 <crimsonmane> yeah i don't have that :)
11:45:10 <crimsonmane> maybe some day
11:45:12 <lmat> warlord: I do business as a sole proprietor on my 1040 ...
11:45:47 <lmat> warlord: Oh, but I do need them for other things: keep track of rebates for which I've applied. Also, my wife cooks meals with friends, and they owe us for their portion of our expenses.
11:45:58 <crimsonmane> as for reports, they didn't seem to offer the kind of insight I get from reports at work. they seemed to just be ways of turning the Accounts tab into something printable
11:46:36 <lmat> crimsonmane: Some of them... I like to know my "current" net worth. That is, if I pay off all my short term (current) liabilities, how much money will I have left.
11:46:46 <lmat> crimsonmane: I use a net worth report with just current assets and liabilities for that.
11:46:49 <crimsonmane> anyway thanks for this wonderful information. i am going to start a new file and build it the way you have taught me.
11:46:52 <lmat> crimsonmane: Profit and Loss is irreplaceable...
11:47:01 <warlord> crimsonmane: you're clearly not trying to correct reports.
11:47:05 <warlord> ;)
11:47:29 <crimsonmane> i don't correct, i glean information
11:47:36 <lmat> crimsonmane: Once you get your accounts in line, perhaps the reports will work better for you ;-)
11:47:43 <crimsonmane> they might
11:47:54 <crimsonmane> at work i use the data, i dont correct the data
11:48:20 <lmat> crimsonmane: perhaps he means "you're not trying the correct reports" ?
11:48:32 <lmat> crimsonmane: But what do you use at work (I may have missed it above)
11:49:28 <crimsonmane> small typos do change meaning. I am a hotel auditor and have been for many years. I do enter invoices into our AR/AP software and have to mark the proper GL codes (stationary vs office paper, for example)
11:49:45 <warlord> Sorry, yeah, "not trying THE correct reports"
11:50:22 <crimsonmane> I've tried gnucash a couple times but found it too complicated to set up. this time going at it, it started making sense and I got a lot further than before. and with what you've shown me, we'll get this set up proper eventually
11:51:36 <crimsonmane> so that's why i wanted receipts to be clumped together, because that's how i'm used to entering them
11:52:44 <lmat> crimsonmane: A lot of times, those "enterprise" systems hide double-entry accounting features from you. Gnucash focuses on them (in my experience), so it'll be a very different experience, but one I hope you'll enjoy.
11:53:13 <lmat> crimsonmane: I work on an "enterprise" accounting application. I think it claims to be double entry, but it's the worst kind...
11:53:32 <lmat> we create "single" entries all the time then "create an offset entry" to some random account just to make it look like double-entry. ::crying::
11:54:03 <lmat> Gotta go, catch you all later!
11:54:14 <crimsonmane> as far as it appears on my end, i enter in a batch of invoices and click Send. corporate writes the checks and mails them
11:59:43 <crimsonmane> so how would i enter Income, differentiating between Gross pay, each tax category, resulting in the final Net pay to appear in Primary Checking ?
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12:39:13 <gjanssens> jralls: these recent commits of yours, was that trunk refusing to RIP ?
12:39:34 <jralls> Looks like it. I had to get out the wooden stake.
12:39:34 <gncbot> jralls: Sent 7 hours and 32 minutes ago: <gjanssens> http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/index.php?title=MacOSX/Quartz still explains how to build gnucash 2.4 and older on MacOS tiger (due to missing webkitgtk on that platform). Is this still relevant today ? That is, does your gnucash-on-osx repo still support this ?
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12:41:17 <gjanssens> Yes those trunk vampires can be hard to kill... :)
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12:41:50 <jralls> As for Tiger, yes, it still supports it. I've announced that I'm going to remove all of the pre-10.8 code and patches, but I've been busy on GnuCash and haven't done it yet.
12:42:53 <jralls> It's actually https://git.gnome.org/browse/gtk-osx/ that's the important repo.
12:45:20 <jralls> But I should take that out of the wiki anyway. No sense in explaining how to build a 3-years obsolete version.
12:45:38 <gjanssens> Ok. I asked because I ran across it while cleaning up the references to trunk
12:45:48 <gjanssens> It's not an urgent matter
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12:46:04 <gjanssens> In fact, I'm impressed this is still supported!
12:46:36 <gjanssens> I'll admit I tend to drop support for old systems much faster.
12:47:16 <jralls> What's even more impressive is that the current Xcode and SDK will build binaries that support as old as 10.6.
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12:48:31 <gjanssens> Indeed
12:48:51 <jralls> That change (which happened a couple of years ago with Xcode 7) means that it's no longer necessary to maintain old versions of Xcode and the associated SDKs unless you need to support 10.5 and older.
12:51:33 <jralls> GnuCash 2.6.x still runs on 10.5, including PPC. That's not the case for master because SDKs before 10.9 don't support C++11. I'm sure we'll get some whining once those users notice.
12:53:32 <gjanssens> Right.
12:54:05 <gjanssens> No doubt the same would happen if we have to drop support for Windows XP as some point.
12:55:39 <jralls> Have you tried installing master on XP? I haven't.
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13:09:30 <warlord> crimsonmane: same way -- use a split transaction.
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13:09:38 <crimsonmane> warlord: http://imgbox.com/n9dAkwW6
13:10:02 <crimsonmane> warlord: i was just about to post ... anyway it seems I have something backwards
13:11:04 <gjanssens> jralls: no I haven't. Something worth trying. At least it builds (except for docs on my local system...)
13:11:26 <warlord> crimsonmane: yes, you entered it backwards.
13:12:13 <crimsonmane> the headings don't make sense to me. i can easily move the numbers, but can you explain the meaning of the terms? the online manual didn't seem to mention them (or inputing income at all)
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13:14:23 <jralls> gjanssens: I was thinking more of the nightlies built on the Win10 build VM. I think it's probably OK, I don't think that there are any C++ version limitations in MinGW's mswinrt.dll.
13:17:31 <warlord> crimsonmane: feel free to change them to Debit and Credit in Edit -> Preferences
13:17:36 <warlord> (Use Accounting Labels)
13:18:16 <warlord> But Funds In means Debit and Funds Out means Credit
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13:18:34 <crimsonmane> thanks.
13:18:42 <crimsonmane> i had accounting labels set in the previous file :)
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13:29:52 <warlord> ok
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21:59:52 <alavarre> John hi.
21:59:53 <alavarre> It is that time of year again.
22:00:09 <alavarre> It would be very nice to have an “Apply” button under
22:00:25 <alavarre> Edit→Tax Report Options
22:00:41 <alavarre> so that we can work through the Chart of Accounts to set Tax-Related without having to save each account and reenter the keys...
22:01:01 <alavarre> It would also be very nice to be able to drag and drop accounts to other parent accounts...
22:01:11 <alavarre> I don't see any way to do these.
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23:24:53 <Skittles106> hello
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