2017-03-21 GnuCash IRC logs
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07:43:59 <gjanssens> .
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11:35:33 <jralls> fell: Linux only, so I ticked the box for GC2.6.15.tar.gz to override it.
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11:36:12 <fell> OK
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11:38:04 <fell> Before, clicking the big download button sent aqbanking.tgz
11:39:00 <fell> Now I get gnucash again.
11:39:55 <fell> You will set a reminder in the wiki?
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11:48:43 <jralls> I'll set a reminder to myself to turn it off when I release 2.6.16 this weekend. SF automatically sets the newest file matching some sort of extension rule and I prefer to let it do that as long as it gets it right.
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12:04:32 <fell> It will happen again, when we update dependency packages while not releasing a new gnucash version.
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13:05:41 <jralls> fell: True, and that's going to happen pretty soon because I'm going to have to make Windows Gtk3 dependencies for master in a month or two.
13:06:17 <jralls> Plus there will be the beta releases this summer. We don't want the BGB pointing at them.
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14:19:35 <warlord> jralls: can you /op gncbot?
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14:21:05 * jralls wonders why NickServ didn't op warlord.
14:21:34 <warlord> I didn't authN to nickserv
14:21:51 <warlord> (and I'm leaving in about 10 minutes, so didn't seem important)
14:24:17 <jralls> OK. Did you see my note yesterday about gnomey?
14:27:12 <warlord> .
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14:27:18 <warlord> Nope.
14:27:33 <warlord> (I was offline for much of yesterday)
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14:28:32 <jralls> It was while you were on, but apparently AFK. Anyway, he's apparently never actually present, so I think it's time to ban him/her/it.
14:28:53 <warlord> Okay.
14:29:14 <jralls> Is there a way to let him know that he's welcome back if he gets his client fixed?
14:31:24 <warlord> Not that I'm aware of; I dont know if there's a way to set a specific message to contact us.
14:32:52 <warlord> anyways, gotta run.
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14:53:42 <zipporah> go afternoon everyone
14:54:25 <zipporah> i had question how do we integrate the expenses into the budget without entering each amount manually
14:55:18 <jralls> zipporah: I don't think anyone here uses the budget. You're best bet would be to ask on gnucash-user.
14:55:22 <fell> jralls, about PC Welt I translated your text, got cstim's review and sent it today.
14:55:33 <jralls> fell: OK.
14:57:16 <zipporah> gotcha
14:58:03 <fell> Nabend, chf! Klappt es?
14:58:10 <zipporah> which forum is it
14:59:36 <chf> Danke der Nachfrage, fell, heute habe ich mich noch nicht weiter mit dem SKR49 beschäftigt, sondern mit der Importfunktion. Läßt sehr zu wünschen übrig.
14:59:47 <jralls> zipporah: It's not a forum, it's a mailing list. The info page is https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user. You can have a forum-like interface with Nabble, but you have to subscribe in order for Nabble posts to show up on the list.
15:00:37 <zipporah> i found it and signed up for it. what is discussed here
15:01:18 <fell> zipporah, from the info page you can go to the archive
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15:01:49 <fell> chf, which kind of import?
15:03:11 <chf> MT940 & CSV
15:04:04 <chf> CSV has only one of the 4 possible text fields and allows noc concatenation of fields.
15:04:49 <fell> Which kind of data are you trying to import?
15:04:56 <chf> CSV refuses dates without century, e.g. 21.03.17 for today.
15:05:27 <chf> Transaction exports from my bank (Sparkasse Aachen).
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15:08:11 <chf> The MT940 as a format has fields for the first and last account balance, but Gnucash does not create transactions to make this match to the actual balances if you don't have all of the files.
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15:09:09 <chf> It just imports the transactions; works better than CSV, though, because it includes more of the submitted data.
15:10:34 <chf> And Gnucash does not support to import its own CSV export format, which is a multi-line-format probably not supported by anything.
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15:18:01 <fell> For recent data I would use HBCI. Old data I would massage in Libre/OpenOffice Calc and the use http://xl2qif.chez-alice.fr/calc2qif_en.php
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16:32:19 *** jralls sets mode: +bbbbbbbbbbbb *!gnomey@2001:0:53aa:64c:cc5:bee1:bcca:66c4 Your!*@* client!*@* is!*@* flooding!*@* the!*@* list!*@* with!*@* connect/disconnect!*@* *!*@messages. Email!*@* *!webmaster@gnucash.org
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16:58:38 <gjanssens> chf: most of the issues with CSV import you mention will be fixed in 2.8. It has gotten a major rewrite recently.
16:59:33 <gjanssens> ...and that's all for tonight. I'm off :)
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17:22:44 <chf> Well, I think it's easier to convert the data to a CSV file Gbucash "likes" than QIF; I've looked at this converter before, but don't see what makes QIF better.
17:23:45 <chf> So I wonder if it makes sense to report bugs about my findings, would it be better to wait for 2.8 before doing so? I'm currently testing with 2.6.11.
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17:49:06 <fell> chf, which OS?
17:49:31 <fell> Could you get a more recent version?
17:50:50 <chf> Debian, have got dependency problems at the moment. I can probably install a more recent version on my test laptop.
17:51:35 <fell> Mechtilde is debian expert
17:51:59 <chf> I think I'll concentrate my efforts on the SKR49 first, and then make a new Immobilienwirtschaftkontenrahmen.
17:52:31 <chf> I already know most things about the problem.
17:53:38 <fell> IIRC there shoulb be some backports.
17:53:40 <chf> Besides, "stable" never has a recent version of anything (and my issue is partly because of a "mixed" installation).
17:54:27 <chf> Remnants from the past conflicting with bits from unstable, and multiarch.
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18:07:06 <jralls> chf: You can get the latest GnuCash from getdeb.
18:07:57 <jralls> chf: But we'll be starting beta releases of 2.7 in July and would love for you to test the new CSV module then.
18:28:20 <chf> We'll see, jralls; depends all on my spare time, so many problems that I cannot solve all of them for now. I think I'll test the most recent installable version on the test laptop one day.
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18:28:58 <chf> Another CSV-eporter issue: doesn't care about reserved characters in the data fields of Gnucash.
18:29:18 <chf> They are all exported literally.
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18:30:48 <chf> And "comma" is the default separator even if $LANG is set to a locale where this is the decimal separator.
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19:32:58 <fell> chf: in https://bugzilla.gnome.org/buglist.cgi?bug_status=UNCONFIRMED&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&component=Import%20-%20CSV&list_id=201113&product=GnuCash you can see a bunch of gjanssens ideas to improve the csv importer.
19:35:40 <chf> I'll have a look at it.
19:35:56 <chf> Reading about Bayes score:
19:36:27 <chf> The importer should have an option to trust the date absolutely.
19:38:06 <chf> If you import files from your bank, it is normal to have re-occurring transaction with the same amount and texts. "Daueraufträge"…
19:39:46 <fell> I migtht send you monthly the rent and yearly the "Nebenkosten"
19:40:19 <fell> I might have 2 different accounts assigned.
19:41:35 <chf> Yes, but the importer has tried a few times to take TWO similar transactions as ONE, either suggesting to keep the existing, or to replace it with the new one.
19:42:11 <chf> If you can say "different date" = "not the same transaction" this would not occur.
19:44:05 <chf> You want to have the rent in the same account each month, not always assign it manually, because the importer "thinks" the one of the last month is identical to the currently imported one.
19:45:22 <fell> But the cash I got from the ATM last evening, might appear with the date of today
19:46:06 <fell> in the bank statement
19:46:39 <chf> I've seen this on Paypal payments for DHL postage, if the 2 dates weren't too far away from each other.
19:48:00 <chf> Yes, but you would not type that in by hand beforehand, you would just get the file from your bank, and it would appear automatically.
19:48:55 <chf> You have to decide then if you prefer the date where you got the money or when it was deducted from the account.
19:49:30 <fell> Because of the rule "The cash account must never be below 0", I had to enter int before I bought my drink. ;-)
19:50:06 <chf> Or make 2 transactions: today: 100€ ATM -> liability to your bank ; tomorrow: liability to your bank -> bank account.
19:50:39 <fell> No, I have an current asset Money in transfer and a respective liability.
19:51:54 <fell> Once I got blamed because I had forgotten a check very long on his way.
19:52:08 <chf> "100€ ATM" = "money in transfer"
19:52:28 <chf> I just named it "ATM"…
19:55:03 <chf> I've downloaded the last 2 years from the Sparkasse via FinTS these days, and then extended that today back to 2012 via files downloaded via web interface in the past.
19:56:00 <chf> There were gaps in the files, and overlapping files as well, so I found a lot of weird things happening.
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19:57:08 <chf> The "starting balance" when reconciling is also not based on the date, which should absolutely be the case.
19:57:42 <chf> It seems to be based on the position of the transaction in the file.
19:58:49 <fell> Hm, you got first the recent txns via FinTS and later the older?
19:59:22 <chf> Yes, I extended everything into the past.
19:59:38 <fell> How did you reconcile?
20:00:06 <chf> 1) get transactions via HBCI
20:00:16 <chf> 1) get balance via HBCI
20:00:23 <chf> 2) I mean
20:01:11 <chf> 3) reconcile, let it compute the starting balance from the current one.
20:01:47 <chf> 4) import file from before that starting date.
20:02:23 <chf> 5) found that it overlapped, so deleted the starting balance
20:02:55 <fell> Interesting approach
20:03:02 <chf> 6) now looked into the files before importing and imported back until a gap occured.
20:05:10 <chf> Because MT940 has balances (before and after the transaction set) included, I could insert the difference manually at those points with a date set in the gap.
20:06:33 <chf> I didn't know that in the first place, so tried to have that computed like in steps 1)…3).
20:07:30 <chf> That doesn't work well, however, because there are 2 missing balances: start/end of gap AND start of all the transactions.
20:07:31 <fell> But I *believe* GnuCash's reconciliation was not build with the intention to run backwards.
20:07:56 <fell> Others might know it better.
20:08:22 <chf> It works surprisingly well.
20:08:47 <fell> But if you see there are only small changes required, file an enhancement request.
20:09:03 <chf> This was a bank account only file, however, not a complete account hierarchy.
20:09:56 <chf> So the Bayes thing knew that the account to add the transactions to was always the same.
20:10:17 <chf> I need that to look up things and make lists for the taxes quickly.
20:10:43 <chf> And for online banking.
20:11:43 <fell> your personal/business files or the Scouts?
20:11:55 <chf> I had Starmoney running before, but the computer broke down last year while submitting 2 ELSTER files.
20:12:32 <chf> Personal taxes and the house my brothers and I own as landlords.
20:13:07 <fell> Yep, with ELSTER my last windows computer got infected by a virus.
20:13:34 <chf> One month of files was gone, automatic backup didn't work, because new hard disk wasn't delivered while I was in the scout summer camp.
20:14:03 <fell> So I switched to Linux and GnuCash more than a decade ago.
20:14:35 <chf> Because no time left, forgotmanual backup before sending, just made those tax declarations that had been long overdue.
20:15:22 <chf> Those stayed overdue for quite a few more months then.
20:16:30 <chf> The main accounts are all HBCI capable, so I started to import those into Gnucash.
20:17:48 <chf> Starmoney was somewhat convenient, because it reads the web pages of all those stupid banks not supporting standards.
20:18:40 <chf> If you complain, they tell you about people just wanting things "simple", that is smartphone apps and browser only.
20:20:03 <fell> Martin Preuss from AqBanking can sing a song of that.
20:20:08 <chf> This is NOT "simple", if you need to search in transactions from long ago, make huge lists for the tax declaration, and so on.
20:21:11 <chf> People don't know, how simple it could be to work with a decent programme, so they don't expect it.
20:21:51 <chf> As we all know, the WWW is the same as "the internet"…
20:23:48 <chf> I know such people,they throw away their account sheets, phone bills and almost anything after verifying that everything is alright.
20:25:00 <fell> But the tax office might visit you also 8 years later.
20:25:11 <chf> I'd lose hundreds of € of tax returns if I did so.
20:26:45 <chf> Yes, those people don't know how much they can possibly save by trying to minimise their income by declaring all their deductable expenses.
20:28:10 <chf> Especially the poor pay too much, because they don't know about their rights, or think that it's not worth the effort.
20:28:50 <fell> OTOH sometimes, I think it has become too complex in DE, e.g. compared with the dutch declarations.
20:29:52 <chf> Of course, it's the hell if you're "buerocracy-incompatible" like my brother.
20:36:38 <chf> So, muß noch ein paar Überweisungen machen.
20:37:03 <fell> Viel Vergnügen!
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23:14:31 <fell> @tell gjanssens Is there some reason, why default zoom has different tooltip texts in glade and prefs - except riling translators? ;-) I would prefer to use only the more informative from glade.
23:14:31 <gncbot> fell: The operation succeeded.
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