2017-03-04 GnuCash IRC logs

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11:27:28 <gjanssens> jralls: I started building directly from ssd today (where I used to build on a network share)
11:27:56 <gjanssens> apart from the amazing speed improvement, I now also managed to reproduce the dependency error I talked about before
11:28:15 <gjanssens> This time I've captured the build output: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/paste/ygcgpBhwO1iwHbkV6aT13F5M1UNdIGYhyRLivL9gydE=
11:29:43 <gjanssens> Rerunning the build gets me one step further before I get a second build failure
11:29:48 <gjanssens> Third run completes
11:30:20 * gjanssens thinks he better captures this in a bug report rather than a temporary paste-bin
11:44:52 <gjanssens> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=779576 ^^^
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11:45:33 <gjanssens> Not a blocker of course for my day to day work, but inconvenient anyway...
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12:52:13 <codesmythe> gjanssens: I'm in the throes of 'make dist' as we type, but the cmake dependency issue will be next on the list.
12:52:13 <gncbot> codesmythe: Sent 4 weeks, 1 day, 1 hour, and 15 minutes ago: <gjanssens> CMakeLists.txt has an option ENABLE_DEBUG, but this doesn't seem to do anything. Was it your intention this would control the value of CMAKE_BUILD_TYPE ?
12:56:07 <codesmythe> gjanssens: ENABLE_DEBUG was intended to be the equivalent of configure's --enable-debug, but I have not implemented that in CMake.
13:00:00 <codesmythe> gjanssens: Nor have I implemented full support for CMAKE_BUILD_TYPE. When I did the original work, I misunderstood how CMake intended that to be used. I need to revisit.
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13:08:18 <mirage335> jralls: I've been thinking about the data format for GNUCash. There is a general need to attach recepts, even scripted actions, to some kinds of transactions, like assets that will be depreciated and expensed. Maybe a filesystem backend would be even more appropriate than SQL.
13:09:27 <mirage335> Each account, and transaction, could be a directory, adhering to specific date/id naming standards. Metadata, receipts, scripted actions, etc, would be placed in the folders. A GUI like GNUCash could browse the tree.
13:10:00 <mirage335> Audit logs could be kept by a git repo. The whole thing could be implemented as a docker container for portability.
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13:15:17 <codesmythe> mirage335: GnuCash has the ability to attach a file or URL to a transaction. https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v2.6/C/gnucash-help/ch04s03.html#Trans-TransactionMenu "Associate File with Transaction"
13:16:40 <mirage335> Which it does with absolute paths. :|
13:17:13 <mib_gfc38p> hi guys, following faq on gnucash.org having issues retrieving account list for chase bank and td bank if anything has time to help troubleshoot
13:17:20 <mirage335> Not to mention, doing that for every trasaction is a lot more trouble than working with a filesystem.
13:25:03 <codesmythe> mirage335: OK. Wasn't sure whether you were aware of GnuCash's current abilities. I like the simplicity of having my GnuCash data in one (SQLite) file, but don't I need to attach files.
13:26:17 <mirage335> If you like having all the data in one file, how about a tarball?
13:26:38 <mirage335> Or even the option to save data in the SQLite version, using base64.
13:27:22 <mirage335> Mostly, I'm just musing that 'just a bunch of files' is more naturally equivalent to old school filing cabinets full of records.
13:29:58 <mib_gfc38p> both accounts are set up what seems to be properly, but getting the following message in the log which the FAQ doesn't elaborate on: 13:29:03 Waiting for response... 13:29:03 Operation finished, you can now close this window.
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14:18:59 <jralls> mirage335: The documents could also be stored in a database blob. Scripted actions are already available via scheduled transactions.
14:20:17 <mirage335> Fair point. Databases can be hard to explore though.
14:21:20 <mirage335> At least drag-and-drop support would be nice.
14:21:28 <jralls> mirage335: A major motivation for a SQL backend is to enable multi-user access. Any sort of a file-system backend would require a great deal more work to implement the synchronization than SQL does, never mind implementing query without having everything in memory as we do at present.
14:21:39 <mirage335> Ah, true.
14:24:14 <mirage335> For individual users like me though, being able to efficiently maintain auditable records (ie. receipts), tag transactions with the date an asset went into service, and recall how much depreciation has already been written off, would be helpful.
14:27:46 <jralls> mirage335: GnuCash already does all of that. It does require that you know enough accounting to correctly set up accounts for depreciable assets.
14:28:16 <mirage335> Right Click > Associate File With Transaction
14:28:22 <mirage335> Is not really all that efficient.
14:29:02 <jralls> mib_gfc38p: Sounds like the bank doesn't like your setup, and the wiki pages may be out of date. No one here uses AQB with those banks AFAIK so your best bets are Google and gnucash-user@gnucash.org.
14:30:17 <jralls> mirage335: OK, patches/pull requests welcome to improve it, though storage into the database will have to wait until it's the primary back end.
14:30:44 <mirage335> Any idea when that might happen (or how to accelerate that event)?
14:31:39 <mirage335> Although, I can't help thinking, git is a multi-user system that works well with ordinary files, and keeps an audit log of everything.
14:32:09 <jralls> As long as the only one working on it is me, many years out. How's your C++?
14:32:35 <mirage335> Ah, thanks for the illuminating answer.
14:32:48 <jralls> mirage335: Git is emphatically *not* a multi-user system.
14:33:28 <mirage335> If I'm lucky, and my business takes off though, fixing up the FOSS accounting tools might become a reasonable business expense. I don't like relying on others to keep my records operatating.
14:34:36 <jralls> IF you're lucky and your business takes off you'll be hiring accountants and using a big-business accounting system, which GnuCash isn't.
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14:54:28 <mirage335> Ah. Actually, on that point, I kind of disagree. Hiring accounts may be fine. Trusting that a third party's accounting system won't suddenly become unusable, not so much.
14:54:55 <mirage335> <3 FOSS
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15:28:28 <mirage335> jralls: By the way, if you know any affordable accountants that work well with GNUCash, that might help me figure out better ways for everyone to do things like generate tax reports.
15:33:37 <frakturfreak> For it to be really good with taxes it would need a feature like automatic tax entries without having to make an invoice out of evrything
15:40:09 <frakturfreak> Or things like automatic revenue and material expense accounts that split the vat from the gross value
15:45:26 <mirage335> frakturfreak: Yeah, I was thinking that would be a little easier if everything was managed by scripts, or at least acccessible by scripts. Hence, my suggestion for 'just a bunch of files', though I suppose the same things could be done with SQL.
15:46:12 <frakturfreak> Also to have an ability to have a contra-account logic, so that in for example in the journal your account remains fixed and you just change the other account. Basically for accounting the same thing by hand a couple of times in good programs you just enter the value and hit enter after the amount, hit d to jump to the date entry and boom the entry is ready
15:46:27 <mirage335> As an owner of a company though, my growing use case might be extensive enough to really get a feel for GNUCash's weak points, and direct gradual improvements. An accountant helping me make sure I'm doing it right would be helpful along those lines.
15:48:21 <mirage335> frakturfreak: Do YOU have any implementation ideas?
15:49:31 <frakturfreak> Unfortunately not, I’m just talking about the professional program I use at my work
15:49:55 <mirage335> Ah. If you don't mind my asking, what program is that?
15:50:00 <mirage335> QuickBooks?
15:50:16 <frakturfreak> Eurodata Rewe
15:50:36 <mirage335> Ah, ok.
15:50:54 <frakturfreak> It’s a bit closed only for licensed companies and persons basically just for our tax advisors network
15:51:11 <mirage335> So, kind of special-purpose.
15:51:24 <mirage335> And, not very accessible like GNUCash.
15:51:26 <frakturfreak> But it uses the account system of the biggest German player in small and medium firm accounting the datev
15:51:46 <mirage335> What happens if the software company suddenly stops allowing you to use their software, or stops maintaining it?
15:51:47 <frakturfreak> Well yeah
15:52:01 <frakturfreak> It won’t happen
15:52:05 <frakturfreak> we own them basically
15:52:12 <mirage335> Lucky you.
15:52:24 <mirage335> Now what about your customers, if bad things happen to your company?
15:53:02 <frakturfreak> Not my beer.
15:53:25 <frakturfreak> I just trust the guys at the data centre to make evrything right
15:54:34 <frakturfreak> And oh yeah our program also is in heavy delopment right now, since it shall replace our standalone desktop only program. It’s cloud based whoohoo … Sometimes I hate it for that.
15:55:26 <frakturfreak> http://www.edrewe.de/portal/dokumentation/freigabemitteilungen/freigabemitteilung-version-1.42-vom-26.01.2017 if you want to have some screenshots
15:55:47 <mirage335> TBH, I wouldn't be willing to hire your company, unless I knew I could take my records somewhere else when need be.
15:55:59 * mirage335 points to Arthur Andersen
15:56:32 <mirage335> Nice screenshots though.
15:56:39 <frakturfreak> Well if you ask nicely you always could an export file of the accounts
15:57:17 <mirage335> But, is it supported by several other providers? And what happens when half the big accounting firms (that's just two by the way) run into trouble?
15:58:13 <frakturfreak> We aren’t focussing on fortune 500 companies though
15:58:42 <mirage335> Right. At some point, third party accounting services/products are good enough for a lot of companies. But these are issues that simply _do_not_exist_ in the FOSS world.
15:59:35 <mirage335> I can set up a standalone computer, in a metal box, with solar panels, and as long as there is still sunlight somewhere in the world, my business process will still remain available, with zero transition pain/cost.
16:00:09 <frakturfreak> You also could go back to pen and paper.
16:00:10 <mirage335> Same is kind of true for paper books under lock and key, though the efficiency loss is rather unbearable.
16:00:14 <mirage335> Yeah.
16:00:42 <mirage335> But the transition from pen/paper to computers is driven by physical realities.
16:01:19 <mirage335> The loss of independence is driven by usability issues that can, and should, be fixed, by FOSS developers. ;)
16:04:45 <mirage335> frakturfreak: Since you're in this channel, I assume you're quite familiar with GNUCash?
16:05:28 <frakturfreak> Do you want a translation for the screenshots? But yeah, thinks like a better VAT system or updated at least in Germany updated DATEV account charts would be nice
16:05:50 <frakturfreak> mirage335: Well not in the business sector, I’m just using it for my personal finances
16:06:42 <mirage335> Interesting.
16:07:31 <frakturfreak> Always having to write a full invoice is somewhat cumbersome if you just want to enter the data.
16:07:40 <mirage335> frakturfreak: Could you, and would you be willing to, review the processes I am using in GNUCash sometime?
16:07:43 <frakturfreak> It also would need an import function for great amount of data
16:08:27 <mirage335> My finances are pretty tight, but sometimes, I feel like it would be helpful to have a personal accountant make sure what I am doing is reasonably sane.
16:09:10 <frakturfreak> I don’t want money for that, also I’m hard to grab, I’m just online a few hours a day in the week.
16:09:42 <mirage335> *professional accountant
16:09:57 <mirage335> Ah, ok.
16:10:22 <jralls> mirage335: It sounds like you're in the US. Correct?
16:10:26 <mirage335> Yes.
16:10:27 <frakturfreak> but well you could make an anounymous file and I could look through it, but from a german gaap point of view
16:10:46 <frakturfreak> so yeah I don’t really know about the customs in the us, but I hope the basics are the same.
16:10:50 <mirage335> frakturfreak: That, would be quite helpful, thanks for the offer.
16:11:27 <mirage335> TBH, I'm more interested in using procedures that basically make sense, than making the books conform directly to a particular standard. Information capture first, followed by reporting.
16:11:51 <mirage335> Hence, one reason I wish it was a little easier to associate files, like receipts, with transactions.
16:12:01 <jralls> frakturefreak: They're not. The US doesn't subscribe to the International Accounting Standards; it has its own system.
16:12:02 <frakturfreak> Yeah
16:12:34 <frakturfreak> mirage335: Our program can do that now
16:12:44 <mirage335> Good to know.
16:13:18 <jralls> mirage335: That's fine for personal books or a sole proprietorship but not OK for a business that needs to provide audited accounts to partners or shareholders.
16:13:19 <frakturfreak> jralls: Well it’s the edge cases it say, about the value of assets derrefered revenue and what to count under equity.
16:13:32 <mirage335> When it comes to conforming to a specific standard, I'd rather have a program that can automatically translate information from one format to another. Like, evaluating the books in terms of original transaction currency, or whatever inventory/currency matters that day.
16:13:41 <jralls> fakturefreak: No, it runs very deep, to the point that "Active
16:13:57 <frakturfreak> … yes
16:14:07 <jralls> sigh. that "Active" and "Passive" aren't used in American charts of accounts.
16:14:22 <mirage335> jralls: AFAIK, common practice is to keep two sets of books, one following tax codes, the other following US GAAP, for financial reporting to investors.
16:14:31 <frakturfreak> That is just a naming differnce
16:14:52 <frakturfreak> equity is also called capital in britain
16:15:03 <jralls> mirage335: No, the GAAP are tailored to US Tax law and vice-versa. Two sets of books is a well known ticket to prison.
16:15:48 <frakturfreak> Well it’s the same in Germany, you have one book for the share holders and one for the taxes
16:15:55 <mirage335> ^
16:15:55 <jralls> frakturfreak: No, it's a difference in how accounts are structured. In IAS Liabilities and Equity are grouped together in Passive, in GAAP they're not.
16:15:59 <frakturfreak> but the book for the taxes has to be based on the shareholder book
16:16:07 <mirage335> There's fraud, then there's tax accounting.
16:16:30 <mirage335> https://taxfoundation.org/three-differences-between-tax-and-book-accounting-legislators-need-know/
16:16:41 <frakturfreak> jralls: It’s still the same type of account
16:16:43 <mirage335> The example they use being FIFO/LIFO .
16:16:54 <frakturfreak> one system just decided to not give a group name to it.
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16:18:35 <mirage335> frakturfreak: The way I see it, even with differences like FIFO/LIFO, the information is always the same, the transaction history is always the same, it's just the totals, format, and metric (currency) that changes, between accounting standards. Right?
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16:19:37 <frakturfreak> In the end it’s all about evaluation if something is allowed or not.
16:19:57 <mirage335> So I'm thinking, it should be reasonably possible to have a company in one locale, record all the information, provide the tax information, then pack up, move elsewhere, and automatically generate reports that are correct for the other locale. Can you see any reason that wouldn't be technically feasible?
16:21:33 <frakturfreak> Basically you’re not allowed to account for your own immaterial assets under German tax accounting
16:22:15 <frakturfreak> if it isn’t to fancy. But I think it’s better to start with a new set of books in the other country
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16:22:47 <mirage335> Well, once the books are converted, the first step might well be to audit them manually.
16:23:34 <mirage335> Though, by starting with a new set of books, I suppose you are suggesting to just 'close' the old books, and use the results as opening balances in the new locale?
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16:26:08 <frakturfreak> Yep and also take inventory again and don’t forget to exchange the currency.
16:26:51 <frakturfreak> Also you might have to switch your accounting method. From cash based or accrual, there certainly some restrictions when you can use what
16:27:11 <mirage335> Doesn't everyone just use accural these days?
16:27:32 <mirage335> I mean, some people can use cash, but everyone can use accural, right?
16:27:40 <frakturfreak> Not if you’re a small business in germany
16:27:59 <frakturfreak> basically it’s sometimes easier
16:28:23 <mirage335> Are you saying the tax codes in Germany actually don't allow some businesses to use the accural method?
16:28:24 <frakturfreak> at least most of the time you don’t have to hassle to make some transactions in the old year
16:28:53 <frakturfreak> mirage335: You can always use accrual if you wan’t to, but it’s to not worth the complification
16:29:06 <mirage335> Ah, ok.
16:29:10 <frakturfreak> so most businesses just choose to use it, when there called to
16:29:29 <frakturfreak> or if it’s a stock company or llc
16:29:57 <frakturfreak> or other types of busineses and corporations that are required to do it.
16:30:47 <frakturfreak> You don’t want to know how many clients I had to tell that they have to provide their invoices in the month they’ve received them and not when they’re paid.
16:31:28 <frakturfreak> The other nice things are invoices written in January, but with the actual service done in December.
16:32:30 <mirage335> Yeah. My feeling is the cash method kind of works if your business is simple enough that you could probably remember who owes you without putiting it on the books.
16:32:55 <frakturfreak> you can use accounts payable/receivable with cash based
16:33:08 <frakturfreak> just make sure to cancel them in the end of the year
16:33:24 <mirage335> Yeah, but I think looking at accounts receivable as an actual asset makes more sense.
16:34:34 <frakturfreak> And yeah at least in germany there is one addition to cash based accounting, that periodicall payments if taken a short time around the end of your accounting year belong into the right year, not the year of payment
16:34:52 <frakturfreak> mirage335: Don’t tell me that, sometimes I also like accrual accounting better.
16:35:46 <mirage335> ok
16:36:28 <mirage335> I'm thinking the ideal accounting program would not only be useful for generating reports mandated by regulaory authorities, but also could provide the best picture of the company's financial health.
16:37:04 <mirage335> And with the rise of cryptocurrencies these days, being able to value the books in terms of multiple kinds of assets, would be a useful extension.
16:37:25 <mirage335> Or for that matter, just evaluating the company's cash in terms of how much of its own inventory it could afford.
16:38:08 <frakturfreak> As long as you can be pay your debt
16:38:15 <mirage335> That too.
16:38:32 <mirage335> So I'm thinking you could look at the accounting as a 'root' set of books, where every transaction is captured.
16:39:09 <mirage335> And then the software is put into a 'mode', showing the same information, formatted to the type of books required in a given situation, with the currency/inventory/etc, needed.
16:41:32 <frakturfreak> yeah our software can also do nice diagrams and template based reports.
16:42:02 <mirage335> Sounds like you have useful software.
16:42:54 <frakturfreak> the diagrams are just the thing that comes out at the end, the root as you said are the accounts
16:44:10 <mirage335> Just out of curiosity, how quickly could you switch from entering all information on the books according to one jurisdiction's GAAP principles, to working with the same data, under another convention?
16:46:30 <frakturfreak> I don’t know since our program just knows the german gaap and tax accounting
16:46:38 <frakturfreak> but in that it’s just a switch of a button
16:47:10 <mirage335> So, it's possible, but other conventions are not implemented yet.
16:47:24 <frakturfreak> Basically yeah
16:47:43 <frakturfreak> If you look at the first screenshot
16:48:34 <frakturfreak> there is a button under Bereich (meaning accounting system): saying Handels- und Steuerrecht (commercial and tax law)
16:48:47 <mirage335> Nice!
16:48:50 <frakturfreak> that you can change to just commercial or just taxes
16:49:47 <frakturfreak> Also you can change of your view of a single account sheet based on that.
16:50:22 <frakturfreak> Also the entry for is colour coded based on the system you’re using
16:51:55 <frakturfreak> also you get warnings if you’re trying to book accounts that are only allowed in one system or using accounts that are only allowed in cash based accounting
16:52:40 <mirage335> Interesting. That all sounds a lot like what I am suggesting be GNUCash shoudl be able to do.
16:52:41 <frakturfreak> or that companies aren’t allowed to use.
16:53:41 <mirage335> I suppose QuickBooks does a lot of this stuff too. But it'd be nice to have it in the FOSS world too.
16:54:24 <frakturfreak> There are no private withdrawals for corporations
16:55:14 <frakturfreak> And I’ve to on receivables from shareholders and they also have to pay interest on it.
16:58:09 <frakturfreak> But yeah a better system to handle tax on transactions would be the first step.
16:59:02 <mirage335> Sounds like I should keep doing my books for a while, and start developing SQL reports as needed.
16:59:52 <mirage335> Then maybe include some of the tools in the GUI.
17:02:56 <frakturfreak> basically you’d need automatic accounts and an extra field in the journal window where you can select the tax used, including things like intracommunity and third country stuff
17:03:52 <frakturfreak> so basically the tax tables not only in the invoice module
17:05:02 <frakturfreak> also some way to do such things as I don’t know what it’s called in english
17:05:49 <frakturfreak> but at least in germany and i think in the rest of the eu, there is a quirk in the vat system if you’re under a certain amount of sales
17:06:44 <frakturfreak> that you don’t have to pay your vat for the month of the business transaction but when you’re paid for it.
17:07:31 <mirage335> Interesting. Pretty sure that doesn't exist here.
17:07:45 <frakturfreak> so you’d have to have a quick way to make vat not due to vat due when accounting your paid invoices.
17:08:00 <mirage335> But then, AFAIK, our sales tax system is used quite differently.
17:08:06 <frakturfreak> You also don’t have the wonderful vat.
17:08:09 <mirage335> Shouldn't be hard to account for programmatically.
17:08:27 <frakturfreak> Although in the end for the end customer it’s the same mathematically
17:09:04 <frakturfreak> and with the reverse charge system vat also acts like sales tax in some areas.
17:09:24 <frakturfreak> For example in the building business.
17:10:52 <frakturfreak> A building company writes invoices with vat to regular customers. If they have an invoice for another building company it’s vat free with a notification of reverse charge and the other company has to pay the vat on it (but also gets the input tax so it’s a zero sum game)
17:11:56 <frakturfreak> Also what counts as building company changes from time to time, sometimes 3 times a year, just to fuck us accounts up
17:19:04 <frakturfreak> brb, kernel-update
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17:46:10 <codesmythe> How do I get the ability to assign Geert's CMake build bug to myself?
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18:38:44 <jralls> codesmythe: I think you need to be made a developer, and I think I have sufficient privs to do that, let me try. But please don't change the assignment, those pseudo-addresses are how bugmail is distributed.
18:41:41 <jralls> codesymythe: What's your BZ userid?
18:44:50 <codesmythe> jralls: robgowin@gmail.com
18:47:16 <jralls> codesmythe: I've added you to the editbugs and GnuCash_developers groups. That should be enough to do whatever you need to.
18:50:50 <codesmythe> jralls: Ok, thanks. If I do a 'take' on a bug, will that change the assignment (i.e. does that remove the pseudo-address?)
18:53:16 <jralls> Yes. Just make a comment that you're working on it. Or not, since gjanssens and I know that you are and nobody else is likely to do anything about it.
18:55:58 <frakturfreak> also guys, the account chart wizard doesn’t seem to work for me if I’m using my default german locale.
18:56:31 <jralls> frakturefreak: What
18:56:45 <jralls> What's the locale and what goes wrong?
18:57:27 <frakturfreak> de_DE.utf8 and nothing appears if I create a new file and run the wizard
18:58:07 <frakturfreak> if I change to LANG=C I get the options of selecting the several account chart suggesitons
18:58:10 <jralls> By which you mean that nothing appears in the CoA? What selections did you check in the account selection page?
18:58:38 <jralls> Oh, you mean the *wizard* doesn't show up?
18:58:38 <frakturfreak> I don’t even get this account selection page
18:58:42 <frakturfreak> yes
18:58:51 <frakturfreak> it shows up but it’s empty
18:59:10 <frakturfreak> the CoA works though, if there accounts
18:59:15 <frakturfreak> * there are
19:00:46 <jralls> The whole assistant (gnome-ish for wizard) is empty or just the account selector page?
19:01:26 <jralls> What platform are you on?
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19:03:48 <frakturfreak> http://imgur.com/a/5stUb
19:04:00 <frakturfreak> just the account selector page
19:04:03 <frakturfreak> linux
19:04:31 <frakturfreak> all the others before work and also it’s only empty for my locale
19:05:39 <frakturfreak> also the tabs for budgeting business and counters on the page before don’t appear with my locale
19:05:58 <jralls> Make sure that /usr/share/gnucash/accounts/de_DE exists and is populated. there should be 14 files in it.
19:06:34 <frakturfreak> there are
19:07:12 <frakturfreak> 15 in fact
19:07:24 <frakturfreak> o sorry 14
19:07:31 <frakturfreak> i fiddled with one a time ago
19:10:06 <jralls> Try passing LANG=de_DE (no charset) to gnucash and see if that makes a difference. I trust that the other localization stuff--translations, number formats, etc.--works OK?
19:13:54 <frakturfreak> yeah that all is fine
19:14:57 <frakturfreak> still the same
19:15:58 <jralls> What about other localizations, maybe de_CH or de_AT?
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19:17:25 <frakturfreak> I don’t have these locales installed
19:25:08 <frakturfreak> … and it works there
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19:27:10 <jralls> Try removing that 15th file from /usr/share/gnucash/accounts/de_DE.
19:28:16 <frakturfreak> ah
19:28:22 <frakturfreak> that seems to be tha case
19:28:30 <jralls> The code that loads the account files silently bails out and returns nothing if any of the account files are messed up.
19:29:03 <jralls> Not even a warning in the tracefile.
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19:42:39 <frakturfreak> nice …
19:51:21 * warlord is glad he missed the conversation earlier.
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