2016-01-09 GnuCash IRC logs
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05:45:33 <DWP> I've got corrupt data in mysql database which I suspect was caused by a power failure. Any tips on how to resolve?
05:46:49 <DWP> error message is The server at URL mysql://myusername@my.host.name/my.database.name experienced an error or encountered bad or corrupt data.
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10:44:22 <warlord> Tropicalrambler: are you using Thunderbird IRC? Your system is spamming the channel with join/leave messages.
10:55:23 <Tropicalrambler> warlord, I am using LimeChat. It might be my network or the fact that I left the IRC window open
10:56:19 <Tropicalrambler> warlord, any suggestions to reduce this from happening?
11:12:03 <fell> Tropicalrambler, you might try less aggressive energy saviing options on your network.
11:12:58 <Tropicalrambler> fell, thanks for the recommendations. I will do so with my Mac as well. I apologize for the flooding, not my intention.
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11:21:47 <Tropicalrambler> Ok guys, gotta run!
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12:30:33 <cbx33> Hey all
12:30:53 <jralls> @tell DWP Restore from your last backup? GnuCash doesn't have the ability to backup SQL servers so it's the DBA's (i.e. your) responsibility.
12:30:53 <gncbot> jralls: The operation succeeded.
12:30:57 <cbx33> trying to use the loan/mortgage calculator, but in the docs it points to a remainder to: account
12:31:06 <cbx33> for the remainders to go from the transactions
12:31:14 <cbx33> but I don't see that in my version
12:31:16 <cbx33> 2.6.9
12:32:09 <cbx33> So I wondered if I could specify the remainder as a fomula in the Edit Scheduled Transaction
12:32:18 <cbx33> but I can't find out what I would use for that either?
12:32:22 <cbx33> any ideas?
12:33:56 <jralls> cbx33: Where in the documentation?
12:34:10 <cbx33> http://www.gnucash.org/docs/v2.6/C/gnucash-help/trans-sched-loans.html
12:34:16 <cbx33> search for Remainder To:
12:34:25 <cbx33> Choose an account to transfer the rest of the payment amount to.
12:34:38 <cbx33> I'm guessing this is the "remainder" from the calculation
12:34:51 <cbx33> but that box isn't present in 2.6.9
12:35:01 <cbx33> despite also being referenced in 2.4
12:35:05 <cbx33> documentation
12:35:32 <cbx33> jralls, ^^ sorry
12:36:04 <jralls> cbx33: No worries, everyone's fingers get tangled up from time to time.
12:37:19 <cbx33> just dnf upgrading to 2.6.10
12:38:29 <jralls> I suspect that was something that existed a long time ago and the docs didn't get updated. Give me a few minutes to search history.
12:38:58 <cbx33> oh thank you jralls
12:39:30 <cbx33> when I try to enter the transaction and tell it to schedule them in advnace it complains that it basically can't sort out the remainder
12:39:36 <cbx33> and it goes into an imbalance account
12:41:49 <cbx33> If it's been removed, that's OK, just need to know how to get it to automatically put the remainder somewhere
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13:11:46 <jralls> cbx33: It was never really there. I guess the guy who wrote up the help in 2007 relied on the never-properly-maintained loans.txt design doc instead of actually trying the druid/assistant. The widget was present in the code from July-December 2002 then removed as unused. The doc was written in 2007.
13:12:06 <jralls> So on to your question. Why do you have a remainder?
13:12:29 <cbx33> i guess there is a rounding imblance
13:12:34 <cbx33> imbalance
13:13:46 <cbx33> it's only like 0.01
13:13:51 <cbx33> but I want it to go somewhere
13:14:42 <cbx33> jralls, how do others handle it?
13:14:50 <cbx33> i wanted it to enter the transactions automatically
13:15:08 <jralls> Hmm. I guess you could add a split in the SX transaction editor with an appropriate account. When it saves does it actually use the word "remainder"?
13:15:24 <jralls> I don't know that it's come up before.
13:15:39 <cbx33> no it doesn't, but it doesnt say something like
13:15:46 <cbx33> it can't automatically balance the transaction
13:17:23 <jralls> OK. I know that code well as I've just been working on some SX bugs. In fact I refactored that function just yesterday. What are the loan terms, maybe I can provoke it here and see what the SX says.
13:17:35 <cbx33> lemme see
13:17:44 <cbx33> gimme 2 mins
13:19:18 <cbx33> pmt( 0.06800 / 12.00 : 60.00 : 5,500.00 : 0 : 0 )
13:20:30 <cbx33> then i go into the schuedled transaction
13:20:43 <cbx33> and tell it to auto add the trnasactions a year in advance
13:21:51 <cbx33> The Scheduled Transaction Editor cannot automatically balance this transaction. Should it still be entered?
13:22:11 <cbx33> 0.06597 could be the intrest rate, I can't recall which one I was using
13:22:16 <cbx33> but 0.06597 gives me the error
13:26:47 <jralls> 0.06597 is what it calculates when I tell it a monthly compounded APR of 6.8%, so that seems right. And I see the problem. It's calculating principal payment using an interest formula instead of the correct total-interest. You can fix that in the editor.
13:27:48 <cbx33> jralls, what does it use to give you the payment schedule on the last page?
13:27:56 <cbx33> as those monthly payments seemed right
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13:28:24 <jralls> Change the pricipal formula by copying (highlight and control-V) the intereset formula, then change the principal formula by making the first function pmt instead of ppmt, moving to the end and adding '-' and pasting in the copied interest formula.
13:28:48 <cbx33> ok - I'll give it a go
13:28:53 <cbx33> I may need a little more help
13:29:09 <jralls> cbx33: It showed me a bunch of payments with obvious rounding discrepancies.
13:29:16 <cbx33> ok
13:29:25 <cbx33> jralls, but doing it this way will fix that?
13:29:37 <cbx33> so.....did I find a bug?!
13:29:57 * cbx33 is a QE engineer.....I get very excited about finding bugs :)
13:30:20 <jralls> It will fix the actual SX. It won't do anything about the summary from the assistant. Yes, you found a bug.
13:30:34 <cbx33> awesome
13:31:10 <jralls> If you want to file a BZ go ahead. I'll fix the assistant to use the formula I just described.
13:31:50 <cbx33> Couldn't parse debit formula for split "Loan - Principal".
13:31:59 <cbx33> pmt( 0.06597 / 12.00 : i : 60.00 : 5,500.00 : 0 : 0 ) - ipmt( 0.06597 / 12.00 : i : 60.00 : 5,500.00 : 0 : 0 )
13:32:06 <cbx33> did I do something wrong?
13:33:00 <jralls> No, I got the same thing. I think that maybe the formula parser isn't smart enough to handle both a function and an operator.
13:33:12 <cbx33> doh
13:33:39 <cbx33> isn't ppmt the same as pmt-ipmt?
13:34:28 <jralls> I'll have to look at the ppmt function implementation. That's one way to do it, the other is to invert the ipmt calculation.
13:35:14 <cbx33> ok
13:35:21 <jralls> Either way if it's done before rounding then rounding the results of ipmt and ppmt to pennies can produce the error.
13:35:32 <cbx33> ok
13:35:35 <cbx33> I wonder
13:35:45 <cbx33> can I round in the transaction editor?
13:35:46 <cbx33> so
13:35:48 <cbx33> for example
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13:35:56 <cbx33> could I always round principal down
13:36:02 <cbx33> and interest up?
13:37:06 <jralls> I don't think rnd() is implemented as a function. IIRC only ipmt, ppmt, and pmt are. The fix will be to make ppmt do the rounding first, then subtract.
13:37:25 <cbx33> ok
13:38:05 <cbx33> yeh rnd returns an error
13:38:07 <cbx33> darn
13:38:29 <cbx33> the banks always round in favour of the client?
13:42:46 <jralls> cbx33: I don't know. Being a bit cynical about that industry I suspect that they always round ipmt up.
13:42:56 <cbx33> so do people not generally use this feature?
13:43:05 <cbx33> yeh I always assume that in my calculations too
13:43:37 <jralls> I think in general it's proved too hard to get a payment schedule that matches the bank's so it isn't used much.
13:44:03 <cbx33> I mean really I just wanted it to get a better idea of the capitol/interest split
13:44:14 <cbx33> so I could see exactly how much I had paid off
13:44:19 <cbx33> particularly on something like a house
13:44:42 <Mechtilde> cbx33 for which country?
13:44:45 <cbx33> jralls, I used to use a calculator I found and adjust them manually, just thought it would be nice to do it automatically
13:44:48 <cbx33> UK
13:45:39 <jralls> cbx33: Does the bank not give you a periodic statement showing how much principal is left?
13:46:29 <cbx33> yes
13:46:40 <cbx33> and I "adjust" for this
13:46:58 <cbx33> like my month by month calculations......will be slightly off
13:47:07 <cbx33> so I generally have to apply a small fudge correction
13:47:13 <cbx33> which I dont like doing
13:47:42 <cbx33> when I find out exactly how much it is each "year" (that's how the statements are)
13:47:59 <cbx33> I can log in each month and find out....but it just makes the process of doing the banking each month that much longer
13:49:32 <jralls> Yeah, I think that matches most people's frustration. A more comprehensive pmt formula accounts for when the interest is credited. It's also possible that the bank is compounding daily even though you pay monthly, and that can affect the ipmt/ppmt balance.
13:50:59 <cbx33> right
13:51:01 <cbx33> ok
13:51:19 <cbx33> as long as the "usual" way of doing it is to apply the fudge factor, I'm happy
13:51:28 <cbx33> I'm not a "financial" guy and had to figure a lot of this out myself
13:52:42 <jralls> I had a few courses in finance and accounting in college as part of my engineering major. Helps a lot to understand this stuff.
13:52:51 <cbx33> yeh
13:52:59 <cbx33> stock was an interesting one
13:53:05 <cbx33> I have a way of doing it now
13:53:08 <cbx33> and it works and balances
13:53:11 <cbx33> so I'm happy
13:53:26 <cbx33> ok.....in that case.........thanks jralls
13:53:38 <cbx33> I'll use the scheduled payments for my standard ones
13:53:49 <jralls> You're welcome. Cheers!
13:53:51 <cbx33> and continue to do the others by hand
13:54:02 <cbx33> I'll see if I can get the mortgage one to line up
13:54:14 <cbx33> we moved, so now it's essentially two mortgages
13:54:25 <cbx33> sub accounts I think they call it
13:55:23 <jralls> Spreadsheets generally have more sophisticated interest functions so you might be able to get closer with one of them. You could also ask your banks for a full schedule of payments.
13:55:48 <cbx33> yeh that sounds like a good plan
13:56:01 <cbx33> they do tell me the number of months left on the mortage accounts
13:56:06 <cbx33> and the current "balances
13:56:25 <cbx33> so I guess I can start from "now"?
13:56:46 <cbx33> does it work like that? or do I need to "start" it from the beginning of the loan term?
13:59:46 <jralls> In a spreadsheet or the loan assistant? ISTR the latter had some non-intuitive behavior if you tried to set up a loan that's partly paid off, so it's easier to start with the current principal balance and work from there.
14:00:21 <jralls> Spreadsheets, OTOH, are a lot easier to manipulate until you get a result that matches what the bank tells you.
14:00:53 <cbx33> ahhh ok
14:01:04 <cbx33> jralls, something like OpenOffice Calc can do it?
14:01:36 <jralls> Yes, Open/Libre has some pretty good interest formulas.
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14:02:54 <cbx33> ok
14:03:12 <cbx33> Can I take this opportunity to say a big thank you
14:03:17 <cbx33> to all who work on GnuCash
14:03:23 <cbx33> it's been hugely helpful to me
14:04:12 <jralls> You may, and you're welcome.
14:07:06 <cbx33> jralls, just looked at the docs
14:07:11 <cbx33> https://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/How_Tos/Calc:_Financial_functions
14:07:14 <cbx33> there are tonnes
14:08:00 <cbx33> IPMT
14:08:03 <cbx33> I guess
14:08:15 <cbx33> PMT and PPMT
14:08:17 <cbx33> yeh I see
14:08:21 <cbx33> I'll give them a whirl
14:08:29 <jralls> Have fun!
14:09:17 <jralls> Heh: The oldest SX bug: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102622 "Mortgage/Loan SX creates unbalanced transaction "
14:09:36 <jralls> Oldest *open* SX bug, that is.
14:10:03 <cbx33> heh
14:10:08 <cbx33> kinda says exactly what we said
14:10:09 <cbx33> :D
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14:20:29 <rockape> My wife and I just kicked YNAB to the curb. Next on the list to try is gnucash.
14:20:44 <rockape> We are currently trying to build our budget page
14:21:14 <rockape> when looking at the budget report, how do we set columns to be more obvious.
14:21:29 <rockape> color, lines & boxes.
14:21:58 <rockape> don't care, when you have the entire year visible, it gets very busy in the middle months
14:22:05 <jralls> rockape: There has just been a long and detailed discussion about the deficiencies in the budget feature in gnucash-user. You might want to read the archive before putting in too much effort.
14:23:04 <jralls> http://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/
14:23:43 <rockape> is there a better keyword to find the conversation?
14:26:25 <jralls> rockage: google site:lists.gnucash.org budget
14:33:45 <rockape> thanks
14:53:13 <cbx33> jralls, on the mortgage.....if the stated interest rate is say 2.28%
14:53:29 <cbx33> would I put 0.0228/12
14:53:37 <cbx33> in the ipmt/ppmt calculation
14:54:02 <cbx33> it's yielding a value thats about a £1 different to what the mortgage company say it should be
14:54:17 <cbx33> I'm going from the value that they "say" I have left....and the term that they say is left
14:55:34 <jralls> cbx33: If it's 2.28% APR compounded monthly, then yes. Note however, https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=339566, "Changing formula in mortgage/loan druid not respected "
14:55:55 <cbx33> jralls this was in libreoffice
14:57:13 <jralls> Ah, I was just going to ask that. That's what I was talking about earlier: The actual amount is going to vary a little depending on what day of the month they compound the interest.
14:57:58 <jralls> Also whether your payment pays the interest in advance or in arrears.
14:58:11 <cbx33> ahhh ok
14:58:18 <cbx33> suck :)
14:58:20 <cbx33> this is hard isn't it
14:58:26 <jralls> Yeah.
14:58:41 <cbx33> I know some loans and things calculate daily too
14:59:35 <cbx33> I'll try it with daily calculation - I believe that was mentioned
14:59:55 <jralls> Right. That's pretty common in the US: Daily compounding with monthly payments. The good news is that it's both ways, on deposit accounts as well as loans.
15:00:14 <cbx33> yeh
15:00:31 <cbx33> hard thing is.....now I have to calcualte the exact number of days left on the mortgage
15:00:34 <cbx33> heheh
15:00:39 <cbx33> I think I'll leave this for another day
15:00:40 <cbx33> thanks jralls
15:00:49 <cbx33> I think I have a good enough idea now
15:01:03 <cbx33> one last question
15:01:29 <cbx33> actually no
15:01:33 <cbx33> don't worry I think I got it
15:02:02 <jralls> You might dig out your loan paperwork. All of the variables should be explained in the contract.
15:03:42 <cbx33> yeh
15:03:47 <cbx33> i got it in front of me
15:03:49 <cbx33> but.......
15:03:51 <cbx33> another day
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