2015-07-30 GnuCash IRC logs

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05:37:45 <gjanssens> warlord: I'm about 2.5 hours (roughly 250 km) from Bochum, Germany
05:37:49 <gjanssens> When will you be there ?
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09:31:54 <warlord> gjanssens: unfortunately I wont .... my paper wasn't accepted to the conference.
09:32:38 <warlord> ... so I can't really justify the cost of attending.
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11:20:40 <gjanssens> warlord: too bad
11:20:51 <gjanssens> There will be other opportunities...
11:20:52 <warlord> Yeah...
11:21:02 <warlord> I know. I'm just a little down today as a result.
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13:01:13 <MechtiIde> hello. how can I proceed after the last commit in maint?
13:04:37 <jralls> MechtIde: You mean my README commit of a few minutes ago?
13:05:18 <MechtiIde> jralls, no
13:05:43 <MechtiIde> I mean the commits of the German translation of chapter 13 in gnudocs
13:05:56 <MechtiIde> sorry for the missing information
13:08:21 <jralls> OK, I pushed them last week. Are you asking what you should work on next?
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13:25:31 <MechtiIde> what can I do so that will be also published at http://www.gnucash.org/viewdoc.phtml?rev=trunk&lang=de_DE&doc=guide
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13:47:36 <rene> Hello everybody
13:48:53 <rene> I have been looking into GNUCASH for a few months
13:49:08 <rene> and I am realy happy that I have found it
13:49:41 <rene> but I have a few questions, my plan is to adopt it to the swedish accounting enviroment
13:53:13 <warlord> rene: don't ask to ask -- just ask your question.
13:53:37 <rene> sorry :P
13:54:02 <rene> first question is is there any plans to implement accounting objects into the code?
13:54:24 <rene> Atleast in the lower parts
13:54:51 <rene> a lot of swedish software do support atleast one or some times multiple objects to be assigned
13:55:18 <rene> http://www.accountingtools.com/questions-and-answers/what-is-a-cost-object.html
13:55:45 <rene> They are very handy if you want to trac costs for different stuff
13:56:29 <warlord> I'm not sure if you're talking about Cost Centers, or Tags
13:56:47 <jralls> MechtiIde: Be patient. The docs on the website are keyed to the release, so your translation will go in the next one, scheduled for the end of September.
13:56:49 <warlord> We've talked about it but nobody has stepped forward and offered to implement either feature.
13:56:49 <rene> well yes either :)
13:57:50 <MechtiIde> jralls, so it isn't going into the daily builds?
13:58:11 <rene> Ok so it has been discussed but not doen yet :)
13:58:20 <rene> Second question :P
13:58:21 <warlord> Not even started
13:58:30 <warlord> (you're welcome to give it a try!)
13:58:35 <rene> I have a very very anoying bug
13:58:45 <rene> in the ledger
13:59:06 <rene> well actually in many of the "green and yellow" tabels you use for entry
13:59:21 <rene> resising some colums simply down work
13:59:39 <rene> its the same thing on bouth windows and linux
13:59:41 <warlord> it does work, but there's a method you have to use to get it to work..
13:59:58 <rene> do tell :P
14:00:05 <warlord> In particular, you need to expand the column past the end of the window to make the scrollbar show up.
14:00:07 <jralls> MechtiIde: Oh, sorry, that requires a merge from maint to master. I'll do that now.
14:00:23 <warlord> And then you can reduce the size of the description column
14:00:32 <MechtiIde> jralls, ok thanks
14:00:38 <warlord> but the desc column will always autoresize to fill the window.
14:00:43 <rene> Ok so its a known "feature" :)
14:00:56 <warlord> yes, the feature is that the window is always filled.
14:01:59 <rene> The thing is that I cant resize
14:02:15 <rene> the size of the account feeld in the general ledger
14:02:27 <rene> I can make it smaller but not larger
14:04:58 <rene> ah now I got it, thanks
14:06:49 <rene> btw how hard would it be to add support for bitcoin ( XBT ) as a currency?
14:08:05 <warlord> Extremely hard, due to the small sizes. You're better off tracking MiliBTC (1/1000 BTC)
14:08:34 <rene> well sure :P
14:08:57 <rene> ah you have 2 decimal points as standard?
14:09:02 <warlord> No, 6
14:09:07 <warlord> But BTC needs 8 or 9
14:09:11 <rene> yes
14:09:21 <warlord> (it's a UI limit, not a data structure limit)
14:10:08 <rene> ah,
14:10:15 <rene> but today when I select currency
14:10:23 <rene> there is a very long list
14:10:31 <warlord> Yes, the list of ISO currencies.
14:10:38 <rene> including XAU and XAG
14:10:46 <warlord> and XXX
14:10:49 <rene> I guess we could add XBT there to
14:10:57 <warlord> Or just use XXX
14:11:07 <warlord> But you'll want to track mBTC, not BTC
14:11:38 <rene> well yes
14:11:50 <rene> but that would be up to the user I guess
14:14:03 <rene> ah fund it, there is an XML file that defines the currencis ;)
14:15:50 <warlord> But only if you're building gnucash from source; it's not runtime-loaded from the XML
14:16:27 <rene> yes :P
14:18:37 <rene> There is an account type that is called CreditCard
14:19:10 <rene> Anybody who knows when you are supose to use it?
14:19:46 <rene> I have seen that some type of accounts are used by invoices for instance
14:28:28 <rene> btw where is the 6 decimal limit set?
14:29:20 <rene> I can see that the gold and other metals have 1000000 as smallest fraction
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14:32:41 <warlord> A credit card is used for... ummm... credit cards.
14:32:56 <rene> well yes
14:33:10 <warlord> the 6 decimal limit is in the Register UI
14:33:20 <rene> Ah
14:33:48 <rene> so you can only enter 6 decimals there?
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14:35:11 <warlord> Yes.
14:35:22 <warlord> And it will only display 6
14:36:37 <rene> And I guess that that is a hard limit on several places
14:36:56 <rene> so the most senible thing would be to account mXBT
14:37:23 <warlord> yes
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14:39:37 <rene> fantastic now I have XBT as a selectable currency :D
14:40:21 <warlord> enjoy
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14:41:12 <rene> actually a few bitcoin friends where quite impressed when I told them about gnucash
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15:02:47 <rene> would you accept a patch for the bitcoin?
15:03:08 <rene> clearly there is an interest :)
15:03:26 <rene> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=29884.0
15:05:25 <warlord> I'll let the current committers decide.
15:05:50 <rene> what would be the best procedure for it?
15:07:05 <warlord> You can file a bug report with the patch
15:07:17 <rene> Ok
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15:16:56 <jralls> rene: Before you go to a lot of work, a couple of cautions: First of all, we'll only accept an enhancement patch into the master branch which won't be released for another 18 months or so and in which we're making significant architectural changes. We understand the bitcoin limitations (which unfortunately extend beyond the display limit in the register) and have begun to address them already, though there are some more to
15:16:56 <jralls> go (there are several places in the code where numbers are arbitrarily rounded to 6 decimal places for example).
15:18:50 <jralls> There are also legal issues. We will absolutely not add BTC to the list of currencies until ISO does. In the USA BTC is considered to be a commodity not a currency and tax regulations require that BTC transactions are treated as barter exchanges for tax purposes.
15:19:44 * Simon is getting fed up of manually deleting user:split-register values from price editor :/
15:28:48 <warlord> Simon: then dont do that
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16:19:24 <rene> jralls
16:19:30 <rene> thanks for the heads up
16:19:30 <jralls> That's not an option. OTOH, Simon shouldn't be deleting them. They're there because they represent the actual prices or exchange rates that apply to the transactions that created them and that ensures that reports using "closest in time" prices will get the right one.
16:19:41 <jralls> rene: You're welcome.
16:20:09 <rene> I think its great to understand how you guys think
16:20:16 <rene> and I understand as a newcommer
16:20:30 <rene> I have next to nothing to say about it :P
16:21:01 <Simon> jralls: no, I already get the actual prices daily. The user:* values represent inaccurate rounded prices
16:21:18 <rene> Actuallt the legal situation for BTC is the same in sweden
16:21:35 <rene> it is not a currency and I actually think it will not be a currency
16:21:55 <jralls> Simon: No, they're not rounded, they're exact. And the prices that you get daily will be the actual price you paid only by chance.
16:21:55 <rene> but there are other comodites in the ISO standard
16:22:05 <jralls> Oh?
16:22:08 <rene> XAU for one
16:22:32 <Simon> jralls: they are arbitrary price values based on the amount and share value being rounded
16:22:48 <rene> my friends in the stock exchange buisness tell me that the inofficial term from BTC is XBT
16:22:50 <Simon> the quoted daily price is more relevant
16:23:05 <Simon> and in fact these happen to be managed funds that only have one price per day
16:24:30 <rene> what are the significant architureal changes?
16:25:02 <jralls> Simon: If the amount and share value are rounded then you're doing it, not GnuCash. GnuCash does round, but not in the price calculation.
16:25:29 <jralls> rene: http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Roadmap
16:25:44 <rene> Ok its the stuff I saw on the Wiki
16:25:50 <Simon> jralls: well, the company managing my account does it because I can't have a fraction of real currency or too small a division of units
16:26:18 <Simon> jralls: the result of "amount/shares" is a price that does not match the price for that day, which is wrong
16:26:44 <Simon> that's ok for the transaction, but it should not be imported into the price records
16:27:09 <jralls> Simon: No, the reported price is what's rounded. The result of amount/shares is what's real. Use any other value and your books won't balance.
16:28:01 <Simon> jralls: the amount/shares price shouldn't be stored as a user:* price
16:28:22 <Simon> jralls: it's wrong because (all of) the shares were not worth that price on that day
16:29:23 <jralls> Simon: Perhaps, in the special case of open-end funds which reprice only once per day. But in that case you're quibbling over fractions of a penny.
16:30:41 <jralls> Simon: For investors with broader horizons it's important to record the actual price paid in the price db so that e.g. the Advanced Portfolio Report accurately calculates G/L.
16:32:38 <Simon> for real shares that'll get it wrong anyway because there will be multiple prices for that day
16:33:25 <Simon> I'd expect it to use the price of the transaction and not the price db
16:33:31 <rene> I have a question, what do people use GnuCash for mostly?
16:33:39 <rene> I see a lot of effort on the stock part
16:34:36 <rene> There are three things that would make sence from my part to implement.
16:34:47 <rene> 1. Import export to SIE files
16:34:57 <rene> That is a swedish standard för accounting
16:35:09 <rene> 2. Salleries for employees
16:35:55 <rene> 3. accounting object or cost objects
16:36:05 <jralls> rene: Mostly? How would we know? From the traffic on the user list it seems to run the gamut from simple checkbook tracking to running businesses to managing pretty varied investment portfolios. There's even one user who's claimed to run a Fortune 500 company's books on it, but I don't believe him.
16:37:02 <rene> I was supriced about the effort on the stock part
16:37:19 <rene> so I figured there must be users that really like ( US ) stock
16:38:32 <jralls> rene: gjanssens is working on converting the import/export engine to C++11. An SIE plugin would be a nice addition. Payroll is straying a bit from the core mission, and there are other FOSS programs that cover that. Same goes for cost accounting.
16:39:14 <rene> I totaly agree that payroll is not core
16:39:22 <rene> but cost places should be in the core engine
16:39:31 <rene> and it should not be very hard to implement
16:41:25 <jralls> rene: Maybe we're talking about different things. What do you mean by "cost places"?
16:41:34 <rene> A lot of our ( comersial ) software here has modulse
16:41:43 <rene> well basicly in its most raw form
16:42:07 <rene> In sweden we have someting called BAS
16:42:12 <rene> thats an account plan
16:42:19 <rene> you actually have support for it
16:42:23 <rene> I was supprised :)
16:42:36 <rene> you have BAS2012 I belive
16:43:06 <rene> So that means that every entry in the ledger has one number ( account number ) and one name
16:43:30 <rene> so say 1510 is debts owed by costumers
16:43:41 <rene> you have alredy support for that
16:44:23 <rene> accounting objects or cost objects adds a secont number / tag to the accounting line
16:44:42 <rene> possibly multiple number / tags
16:44:55 <rene> this is for tracking costs
16:45:10 <rene> So say I have two departments i my company
16:45:39 <rene> and I want to be able to account in one system but seprarate som of the costs
16:45:46 <warlord> jralls: I think he means "Cost Centers"
16:45:47 <rene> then I tag the idividual lines
16:45:58 <rene> http://www.accountingtools.com/questions-and-answers/what-is-a-cost-object.html
16:46:20 <warlord> (and tags)
16:47:33 <rene> yes
16:47:49 <rene> some times its called tags, or cost centers
16:48:03 <rene> a lot depending on how large your buisness is :)
16:48:04 <jralls> rene: Stop there. If your company has 2 departments it's already to big for GnuCash.
16:48:22 <jralls> s/to/too/
16:49:38 <rene> well actually its very handy stuff
16:49:48 <rene> I use them to trach costs for my employees
16:50:22 <rene> btw why should it be too large?
16:51:16 <rene> Gnu Cash is fully comparable with the most popular comercial software in Sweden
16:53:23 <jralls> GnuCash targets home and sole-proprietorship accounting. There are other packages that are appropriate for larger businesses. GnuCash already has more complexity than we can handle!
16:53:48 <rene> Yes I noticed that you are very advanced :D
16:59:06 <rene> So what you are basicly saying is that if I want to run it for a SME then I should fork the project?
17:01:43 <rene> And btw, there are not open source projects for the SME market :)
17:01:57 <jralls> What's SME?
17:02:10 <rene> Small and Medium sied Enterpice
17:02:15 <rene> sized
17:02:28 <rene> sorry for my horrible spelling :)
17:04:41 <rene> To be honest I think GnuCash has a very advanced engine
17:04:48 <rene> and great potensial
17:06:54 <rene> btw one final question. How is the ledger implemented?
17:07:03 <rene> I mean the GUI part
17:07:22 <rene> I have found a lot glade files
17:08:02 <rene> but I havent found it so far
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17:09:38 <jralls> rene: Odoo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odoo) is probably more appropriate for larger businesses. It's been around for a long time. Google finds many more possible options.
17:10:55 <jralls> rene: The ledger is in src/register. It began as an adaptation from the Gnumeric spreadsheet and has been heavily customized.
17:11:49 <rene> ah ok :)
17:12:03 <rene> its really cool
17:12:15 <rene> Odoo is a could service :)
17:13:22 <rene> but you reuse the same register for different forms and have different fileds in it right
17:13:47 <warlord> to some degree, yes
17:28:13 <jralls> rene: No, Odoo is a stand-alone app that uses the browser for the GUI.
17:30:16 <jralls> rene: Yes, of course. There are at least three such views in GnuCash already: Bank, Commodity, and A/R-A/P. That said, it's not a matter of a config or GtkBuilder file to configure the columns. Everything has to be hand-coded.
17:32:31 <rene> A/R-A/P?
17:34:31 <warlord> rene: Accounts Receivable and Accounts Payable (business features)
17:35:24 <rene> ah yes
17:35:37 <rene> and the General Leger I guess
17:36:57 <warlord> yeah, that's another view
17:38:34 <jralls> IIRC General Ledger uses the Bank Account column set, it's just locked to splits view because it doesn't have a common account. Search results when the search was launched on the Accounts page does the same, for the same reason.
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18:01:57 <rene> Where do you find the Bank?
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18:25:54 <gjanssens> Just for completeness, the invoice and bill entry ledgers are also variants of the register code
18:26:06 <gjanssens> The code can be found in src/business/business-ledger
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18:26:37 <jralls> gjanssens: You must still be on Canada time! ;-)
18:26:44 <gjanssens> If you make important changes in the register code it should always be tested if it impacts the business ledgers
18:27:08 <gjanssens> jralls: I am about to sign off :)
18:27:18 <jralls> There's also SX view. I'm not sure off the top of my head where that is.
18:27:31 <gjanssens> Just reading the conversation before closing my irc channel
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18:27:44 <gjanssens> See you later :)
18:28:01 <mib_pqtzre> Hello
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20:39:41 <Steve> hi
20:40:07 <Steve> does anyone know how to trouble shoot reports
20:40:13 <Steve> All i get is
20:40:16 <Steve> Report error
20:40:16 <Steve> An error occurred while running the report.
20:50:56 <warlord> Steve: Check the console and the gnucash.trace file
21:02:10 <Steve> im using the windows version of gnucash. where do i find those files?
21:07:07 <warlord> http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Tracefile (I think)
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