2015-05-25 GnuCash IRC logs

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00:31:25 <linas> either the root file system doesn't mount, or it attempts to kill init
00:31:47 <linas> I have spent the last 10 hours trying to boot the damn thing
00:32:11 <linas> this is just insane
00:32:48 <linas> kay fucking sievers should have to actually live with the turd-ball-ity of the crap
00:33:50 <linas> I mean, at least give me a busy-box prompt
00:33:56 <linas> but no can't have that
00:36:03 <linas> I am at a loss. I think I need to figure out how to get a rescue cdrom from somewhere or
00:36:21 <linas> buy a hard drive instal it on a differnt machine
00:36:26 <linas> bring it over to gnucash.org
00:36:37 <linas> I don't know if I have a cdrom
00:37:55 <linas> I want to either work on my job or have a vacation but I don't want to fight systemd brain-stupidity
00:38:08 <linas> during my off-hours
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02:25:40 <kimmo2> how about just install plain old slackware?
02:25:50 <kimmo2> it works even when parts of the system don't
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03:05:18 <linas> front page of http://linas.org There is a deep, fundamental and serious structural illness that has best Linux software
03:05:46 <linas> I don't understand the root causes.
03:08:04 <linas> thanks kimmo2 I dunno. The problem is .. I suspect that not even slackware is immune to the strurcturl problems.
03:08:51 <linas> Given the complaining I hear about android, it seems that the problem is not just linux, but something about modern software development
03:09:37 <linas> its easy to blame key sievers and lennart potering for system d, but it does not explain the train wreck that is the gnome desktop
03:09:50 <linas> It also does not explain why firefox cannot play youtube videos
03:10:08 <linas> or why the google chrom browser crashes every 12 hours
03:10:29 <linas> Its like everything is broken, all the time, now
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05:43:56 <Simon> not all the time, I fixed a bug recently where it only breaks after 2^31 milliseconds
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05:58:43 <Simon> I suspect that at some point, "test everything that might occur" gained too many variations to cope with
05:59:31 <Simon> like Gentoo, which cannot handle users who don't continuously upgrade the whole system
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06:25:08 <Simon> did you try for 10 hours to boot without using a boot cd of any kind?
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07:44:38 <warlord> linas: I'm curious what the boot screen sequence is saying? Where does it actually stop booting?
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12:29:14 <linas> I get one of two messages: one is a kernel panic, VFS can't mount root file system
12:29:42 <linas> the other one mounts the root FS, but then does a killing init
12:29:58 <linas> the kernel panic is the stock debian kernel
12:30:20 <linas> the one that gets farther is a custom rescue kernel I compiled
12:31:43 <linas> Simon, its a process of googling error messages, reading teh confused responses, trying to imagine what might be wrong
12:32:21 <Simon> I'm guessing you don't have a KVM for it?
12:32:45 <linas> ?
12:32:59 <linas> kernel virtual machine?
12:33:40 <linas> init is process #1, the very irst process after the kerenl finishes
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12:34:04 <linas> and the root file system is .. will, nothing works without a root file system
12:34:22 <linas> so the boot issue is long before I can bring up anything else
12:35:05 <linas> so the killing init issues is I thnk that systemd is trying to become process #1 and failing for some reason
12:35:44 <linas> and I have no clue why the other varient can't find the root FS.
12:36:43 <linas> I've reviewed and played with grub, and the kernel boot params, the disk partition with root on it is being correctly specified.
12:36:52 <Simon> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KVM_switch#Remote_KVM_devices
12:37:49 <Simon> the kernel will mount / and then execute init (systemd)
12:37:59 <Simon> "killing init" is likely to mean that systemd exits with some error
12:38:02 <linas> no kvm switch. The machine is right here 3 feet away, it has its own keyboard and monitor
12:38:27 <Simon> alternatively it's expecting you to use an initrd when booting
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12:38:52 <linas> well, yes, thsi is stock debian, so it has initrd
12:39:26 <Simon> does it not give you an error message when it fails to mount the root filesystem?
12:39:36 <linas> I've rebuilt initrd may 5 or 6 times and poked around in it, and it seems fine
12:39:36 <Simon> e.g. is it missing the device, or failing the mout?
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12:39:59 <linas> the stock debian initrd fails to mount. I can't figure out why
12:40:20 <linas> its just a VFS kernel panic can't mount (0,0)
12:41:14 <linas> which is sda1 what is where the root fs has been for the last 10 years on that particular machine
12:41:28 <Simon> and it does list sda1 while booting?
12:41:42 <linas> dunno, scrolls off the screen
12:42:12 <Simon> can you use a serial console?
12:42:35 <linas> ugh.
12:42:53 <linas> yes, I guess.
12:43:50 <linas> but the simpler thing right now is to do a clean install a different hard drive on a different box, and then swap out disk drives
12:44:45 <linas> I used to be a kernel programmer once upon a time. I don't want to/shouldn't have to debug stock debian kernels
12:45:16 <linas> or figure out why standard systemd crashes.
12:45:59 <linas> The point is, even if I set up the serial cable, configured kgdb got it all figured out, I would still not have a bootable system,
12:46:20 <Simon> I wasn't suggesting kgdb, just that you'd be able to see all of the log
12:46:35 <linas> not without a patch to whatever it is that is making the kernel modules not load, or is making systemd crash
12:47:15 <Simon> normally I'd put in a boot cd, mount /, chroot, and fix it
12:47:34 <linas> yeah, that's all I've been doing.
12:47:56 <linas> but its one step forward, two steps back.
12:48:26 <linas> you fix one thing, you say, ah, now I'm almost done, apt-get -f install to fnish the failed install,
12:48:30 <linas> and then it doesn't boot again
12:48:41 <linas> but this time with some other completely different symptoms
12:48:57 <linas> if it was one thing, it would be fixable.
12:49:07 <Simon> check /var/log/ to make sure you're still using the same kernel version?
12:49:14 <linas> but its a train wreck of multiple istinct failures
12:49:23 <Simon> (and the same parameters)
12:49:36 <linas> I've got multiple kernels.
12:50:07 <linas> I had to hand build a kernel to get it to mount the FS, but the hand-built kernel is the one that crashes systemd
12:51:07 <linas> Like I say, I'm punting on that, I've got an old spare PC, and will do a clean install of that
12:51:21 <linas> and then copy over all the file systems
12:52:09 <linas> like I say, I used to be a kernel prorammer. Your cell phone has code in it that I wrote
12:53:19 <linas> I'm not making mistakes, its just a very very fucked up boot process. Between initrd and udev and systemd, they've engineered themselves into a corner
12:53:39 <linas> Its a terrible design
12:54:11 <linas> and I don't understand the politics of debian and of ubuntu that they let these flaming retards move forward with it
12:56:49 <linas> I'm assuming that there are a lot of 25-year-olds in the decision making process
12:57:40 <linas> and when you're that young and naive, yes, sure systemd sound wonderful.
12:58:07 <linas> You have to get a little older and more experienced before you start seeing all the different ways that things can fail
12:59:05 <linas> So its really a failure of political process, here: the older and more senior programmers failed to guide and teach the younger ones, and the younger ones are doing the craszy-shit dance as a result
12:59:31 <linas> I thnk that explains the crazy-shit systemd dance
13:00:12 <linas> Its like lord of the flies or omehting
13:01:38 <linas> no adult supervision
13:04:36 <Simon> I don't know why they let people rewrite everything into something more complicated with poor --help,
13:05:08 <Simon> but people will only ever do what they need and test for their own hardware/software configuration
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13:06:21 <linas> I bleive that every developer, once he "gets it", has a powerful and overwhelming urge to re-create and update and improve and complextify whatever system they are working with
13:06:56 <linas> Because, once you "get it", all bugs seem shallow, all failures seem easy to fix.
13:07:25 <linas> You loose sight of the fact that you are now a system expert, and that others do not have that expertise
13:09:08 <linas> There is concept from mathematics called "kolmogorov complexity", and I think we are entering an era where the kolmogorov complexity of software has gotten so high, that no one can deal with it any more, not as humans withy limited intelligence
13:09:46 <linas> when you have 1000 different possible software and hardware combinations, you just can't test them all.
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20:04:58 <warlord> linas: Sounds like the file system crashed.. Are you using LVM or raw partitions?
20:05:20 <warlord> linas: if you boot with something like SystemRescueCD can it mount the system's rootFS?
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