2015-02-19 GnuCash IRC logs
00:31:31 <linas> jralls -- I did some googling, and dredged this up: I quote:
00:31:34 <linas> According to the [http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/=README README] on GNU's FTP site, anything in [http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/ this directory] is part of the GNU project. And [http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gnucash.README lookie here].
00:33:02 <linas> Based on this evidence, one could legitimately conclude that gnucash has been a part of the gnu project since ...
00:33:06 <linas> april 2002
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00:37:10 <linas> above is for jralls, and for warlord and gjanssens
00:38:30 <linas> I fully realize that the gnucash developers have gotten essentially no effective support/help from GNU or FSF or RMS, so the association is in title only.
00:39:36 <linas> I am also fully aware that none of the gnucash code base has ever been copyright-assigned to the FSF, and as far as I know, not a singleu sourcefile in gnucash has a "Copyright (c) FSF" statement in it.
00:40:25 <linas> However, the README and the listing on the FTP site would seem to be a blessing of offical-dom-ness from what I can tell
00:41:24 <linas> so it would seem to be true: GnuCash is an offical part of the GnuProject, because the owners and operators of the authoritative website: http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/ say that it is.
00:45:37 <linas> Does that resolve all concerns? Or is there something that remains contentious or worrisome?
00:47:20 <linas> @tell jralls warlord gjanssens about the above conclusion about FSF/ gnu and gnucash
00:47:20 <gncbot> linas: The operation succeeded.
00:53:24 <linas> Ah what the heck. Look> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GnuCash says in the second paragraph: "GnuCash is part of the GNU Project,[13][14]" and the footnotes point to the ftp server too.
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00:53:53 <linas> So I am not sure what the cold-feet about the gnu project is all about. Am I missing something?
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02:49:54 <nacho_> hey jralls
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02:59:38 <nacho_> jralls, if you have any issues with gnucash on windows let me know
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03:37:44 <gjanssens> nacho_: jralls is probably sleeping at this time of the day (where he lives)
03:38:04 <nacho_> he will probably see the ping anyway
03:38:07 <gjanssens> nacho_: out of curiosity: what prompts you to offer help ?
03:38:34 <nacho_> saw in some mailing list that it was one of the topics to not move to gtk3
03:38:44 <nacho_> and since I've put quite a bit of work lately on gtk3 windows
03:38:58 <nacho_> maybe he has some questions or something
03:39:14 <gjanssens> ok, nice to know
03:40:21 <gjanssens> until some months ago we were using the prebuilt gtk2 binaries on ftp.gnome.org for gnucash on windows
03:40:52 <gjanssens> At some point we upgraded our gcc toolchain to 4.8
03:41:13 <nacho_> fwiw: http://blogs.gnome.org/nacho/2014/08/01/how-to-build-your-gtk-application-on-windows/
03:41:36 <nacho_> also I've been working lately on getting the stack built with msvc 13
03:41:46 <gjanssens> This resulted in lots of unexpected behaviour in gnucash which we eventually traced back to the gtk binaries
03:42:02 <gjanssens> It took jralls 3 months to build the gtk packages from source on Windows
03:42:11 <nacho_> yeah...
03:42:14 <nacho_> he should have asked :)
03:42:18 <gjanssens> Has this situation improved with gtk3 ?
03:42:21 <nacho_> I had to go that path too
03:42:28 <nacho_> with gtk3 and gtk2
03:42:50 <nacho_> if you are using gcc you can take the script we have in gedit
03:43:00 <nacho_> modify it and generate the binaries of gnucash
03:43:06 <nacho_> it is pretty fast
03:43:18 <nacho_> either with gtk 2 or gtk3
03:43:38 <gjanssens> interesting
03:43:55 <nacho_> here you have the script we use in gedit (probably outdated) https://git.gnome.org/browse/gedit/tree/win32
03:43:58 <gjanssens> I'll have a look when I find some time
03:44:10 <nacho_> but if you are interested at it I could give you the script with use at work to generate a bundle with all the gtk stuff
03:44:32 <nacho_> gjanssens, but basically if you use gcc my suggestion is:
03:44:48 <nacho_> - fork https://github.com/Alexpux/MINGW-packages
03:44:54 <nacho_> - add gnucash there
03:44:58 <nacho_> - pull request it
03:45:12 <nacho_> few days or hours later you will have gnucash included in msys2
03:45:23 <nacho_> so you just need to care of fetching the binaries and generate the installer
03:45:42 <nacho_> another solution of course is to build gnucash by yourself using msys2
03:48:27 <gjanssens> yeah, the gnucash on windows build script is still based on mingw/msys
03:48:50 <gjanssens> I contemplated converting it to mingw-64/msys2
03:49:01 <nacho_> yeah, mingw/msys is completely deprecated
03:49:57 <gjanssens> Unfortunately real life caught up and I haven't found enough spare time ever since to actually do so
03:50:17 <gjanssens> you do provide interesting pointers though
03:50:21 <nacho_> yeah...
03:50:39 <nacho_> I guess I could try to add gnucash to msys2 so it is easier for you
03:52:28 <gjanssens> you're of course welcome to give it a try
03:53:18 <gjanssens> how hard would it be to generate an installer based on that ?
03:53:59 <gjanssens> we release our windows versions via inno setup
03:54:47 <gjanssens> btw, if you're interested, our windows build system is maintained in https://github.com/Gnucash/gnucash-on-windows
03:55:26 <nacho_> so the first thing is to get the deps added
03:55:57 <nacho_> gtkhtml seems there
03:56:00 <nacho_> goffice is not
03:56:10 <nacho_> guile is
03:56:21 <nacho_> libofx is not
03:56:39 <nacho_> libgnomeui neither it is
03:57:01 <nacho_> I guess adding those deps should not be hard
03:57:23 <nacho_> basically you would take the arch linux PKGBUILD and change it a bit
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04:02:43 <gjanssens> gtkhtml is no longer used by gnucash
04:02:56 <gjanssens> we use webkit-gtk currently
04:03:02 <gjanssens> version 1, not 2
04:05:03 <gjanssens> nacho_ and libgnomeui is no longer needed either
04:05:20 <nacho_> gjanssens, webkit2 is not supported on windows though
04:05:34 <nacho_> as in webkit2 does not have an implementation for windows
04:05:44 <nacho_> webkit1 is though
04:05:56 <gjanssens> well, since we're still on webkit 1 that should be ok
04:06:19 <gjanssens> where did you find the dependencies you listed above ?
04:06:35 <gjanssens> That spot seems to be in need of an update
04:06:49 <nacho_> oh! I was indeed looking at an outdated one
04:06:55 <gjanssens> And what version of guile is available in msys2 ?
04:07:03 <nacho_> this happens for context switching :)
04:07:12 <nacho_> https://github.com/Alexpux/MINGW-packages/tree/master/mingw-w64-guile
04:07:17 <nacho_> so 2.0.11
04:07:23 <gjanssens> cool
04:08:01 <gjanssens> our windows build is currently forcing us to maintain compatibility with guile 1.8
04:08:13 <gjanssens> so an update to 2.0.11 would be a real improvement
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04:42:37 <guacamole> hello. How can I see invoice numbers in my Accouns -> Bank Account view?
04:42:48 <guacamole> i can not find any settings that make it visible and this really sucks :(
05:09:54 <guacamole> anyone?
05:10:52 <Infiltrator> guacamole: Just wait. I'm sure that somebody will come along who can answer your question. If not, wait a while (>~1hr) and ask again.
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05:29:32 <guacamole> it's a PITA because now I have to use clients name and payment amount to compare it to bank statements and sometimes they have different invoices but same amounts etc.
06:07:20 <gjanssens> guacamole: there is no straight away option to view invoice numbers in your bank account register
06:07:36 <gjanssens> that is because the registers are totally unaware of the business features
06:08:07 <gjanssens> the way I handled this is to add the invoice number in the payment memo when I process a payment
06:08:40 <gjanssens> That way you can see the invoice numbers in the bank account register by setting it to split view mode
06:09:53 <guacamole> why? This is absurd, especially if I use make payment feature to take care of the payments
06:12:00 <gjanssens> you can call it absurd yes, it has just grown that way historically
06:12:35 <gjanssens> Particularly there was a time gnucash didn't assign payments to bills but to vendors
06:13:05 <gjanssens> There is an argument to be made that your vendor's balance is more relevant than the individual invoices' balances
06:13:14 <gjanssens> I won't make that argument though
06:13:28 <gjanssens> I prefer more control over my payments, like you
06:14:05 <gjanssens> I'm just pointing out why some decisions have been made in the past
06:15:10 <gjanssens> warlord wrote most of the business functionality
06:15:26 <gjanssens> maybe he will have better advice
06:15:34 <gjanssens> but you'll have to wait until he wakes up...
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06:30:19 <Infiltrator> warlord: ping for guacamole
06:38:11 <guacamole> gjanssens, thank you foe your time. I guess we use that fkn memo from now on .. not happy at all.
06:38:39 <guacamole> I be happy, if I can get a report with inc # but this is nowhere to be found
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08:54:27 <warlord> .
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10:13:46 <warlord> guacamole, gjanssens -- I thought the invoice # went into the transaction 'num" column?
10:14:42 <warlord> (but not for payments, because as you say, a payment can apply to multiple invoices)
10:17:09 <gjanssens> warlord: that's right
10:17:53 <warlord> However ... you dont see an invoice txn in a Bank account, only in A/R and the Income account.
10:18:11 <warlord> so yeah, you'd never see an invoice# in a Bank account because payments aren't made to invoices.
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12:27:24 <jralls> linas: Thanks for looking into this and helping Yawar with the SF press release. The "cold feet" is because every once in a while some FSF guy will show up on one of the mailing lists and try to throw his weight around. I don't see any reason to encourage that.
12:27:24 <gncbot> jralls: Sent 11 hours and 40 minutes ago: <linas> warlord gjanssens about the above conclusion about FSF/ gnu and gnucash
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18:56:48 <Yawar> linas, jralls_afk, warlord et al.: hi all. i am about to send out the finalised version of the interview answers to elisabeth daniels. she wanted it by friday, and it may already be friday where she is now, so i'm trying to get it out tonight (eastern time)
18:57:53 <linas> jralls, 1) how do they "throw thier weight around", and 2) if it happens again, point them at me
19:11:28 <Yawar> folks, we discussed the potential effects of asserting gnucash as being part of the gnu project, but as linas points out, it's not exactly a secret. and other projects routinely do it apparently without being bound by any fsf restrictions. see e.g. the R project, they claim to be part of the gnu project right there on their home page, and they don't have any copyright assignment: http://svn.r-proj
19:11:29 <Yawar> ect.org/R/trunk/doc/COPYRIGHTS
19:11:33 <Yawar> http://svn.r-project.org/R/trunk/doc/COPYRIGHTS
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19:12:48 <Yawar> actually it's not just them making the claim, the gnu ftp directory lists them as well: http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/
19:13:25 <Yawar> so i say let's embrace it; it's a matter of prestige, and i think we are capable of dealing with any fallout.
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19:30:53 <jralls> linas: I don't remember the details and can't find the thread in the mail archives.
19:31:29 <jralls> Yawar: Why do you think it's prestigious?
19:34:30 <Yawar> in the same way as it would be prestigious to be part of the gnome project....
19:35:49 <Yawar> i think it's prestigious to have a long history of bringing free software to the world
19:36:22 <jralls> linas: As for code with assigned copyright, grep finds 20 such, including gnome-search/gnc-general-search.[ch] that also has Derek's name as author.
19:41:45 <jralls> Yawar: But GnuCash has the history without the (dubious) association. So maybe a better question would be do you think that explicitly saying that GnuCash is a GNU Project program will entice more people to try it out than saying that it's a mature project with almost 20 years of development?
19:42:16 <jralls> After all, the point of the exercise is to get more people to try it, right?
19:42:30 <jralls> Sorry, my guests are here. Gotta go again.
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19:46:55 <Yawar> sure. that's a good question. if we look at it rationally, mentioning it can't _hurt_ the chances of people trying it, right? and i don't know about you, but i personally do look twice at something if i know it's part of gnu, in whatever way
19:47:32 <Yawar> they haven't exactly built up a reputation for associating themselves with fly-by-night projects
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21:19:59 <linas> Yawar, the deeper issue is that almost all potential users don't care about the politics of software
21:20:33 <linas> If they are hearing of gnucash for the first time, then they probably have not heard of GNU before
21:20:54 <linas> So the role is actually kind-of reversed
21:21:18 <linas> gnucash acts as an emissary, introducing new users to the world of GNU
21:22:09 <linas> To rephrase: most users don't care about politics, and RMS's message is that they should care
21:22:46 <linas> so the goal of gnu software is to take that message to the world: to say "thi is what the world could be like"
21:22:56 <linas> "if there was more free software"
21:23:02 <Yawar> ok, i see your point that gnucash here is acting as an introduction to the world of gnu and other free software
21:23:50 <Yawar> btw i've put up the Q&A that we've been hashing out in the gnucash-core list, up here: https://gist.github.com/yawaramin/d48e27381224881ef85d
21:25:52 <Yawar> in the intro answer i present gnucash on its own merits as a mature, serious application, and only at the end mention that it's part of the wider gnu effort
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21:59:52 <Yawar> ok, i've sent out the final version. small mention of gnu membership, just as a side note. ultimately i don't believe it's going to be any huge issue. (if it is, i'll be _very_ surprised :-)
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