2015-02-12 GnuCash IRC logs
00:11:00 <David417> It took GnuCash several hours to Repair all. Then I closed the program and restarted it there are still several errors in the trace. I will try switching to my Ubuntu machine tomorrow.
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04:12:24 <mikee> @op
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08:12:47 <tessavandervlugt> would like to restore data in gnucash. when i open myfile.gnucash all totals are zero
08:13:40 <tessavandervlugt> all data seems to be lost.
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08:14:13 <tessavandervlugt> could someone point me in the right direction of retrieving data, thanks!
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08:22:40 <tessavandervlugt> myfile.gnucash is only 30kb in size. does this really contain any data? or should i be looking for a different data-file?
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08:41:28 <stijnblommerde> dear users, i lost all my gnucash data. it seems. could someone help me retrieve them? thanks in advance
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09:24:38 <fell> stijnblommerde, did you read http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/FAQ#GnuCash_Files_and_managing_a_GnuCash_installation
09:28:21 <fell> gjanssens: What happened the duch users vandaag?
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10:12:22 <itstallchris> Hello all, I plan to budget money for Food and have subfolders for specific pantry items, like Oatmeal and Bread. Has anyone got ideas on how to go about this approach, specifically dollar amounts for serving size conveniently
10:39:03 <fell> itstallchris: I believe, you could get more usefule feedback on the gnucash-user mailing list than here. [http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Mailing_Lists]
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11:28:10 <stijn> dear users. i recently swapped my hdd for a ssd, and reinstalled gnucash and try to open a previous .gnucash file, which should contain a complete bookkeeping. when i open the file all totals are empty though. anyone understand where the problem may come from?
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11:58:49 <fell> @tell stijn Stay longer online or read the log: http://lists.gnucash.org/logs/2015/02/2015-02-12.html#T09:24:38
11:58:49 <gncbot> fell: The operation succeeded.
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12:11:50 <gjanssens> fell I have no idea what they ran into
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12:13:10 <fell> At least stijn* is using different aliases...
12:14:10 <bozonius> I am having trouble generating a badly-needed report. I need to show the transactions a customer has made in our shop. We only want to show her transactions, not those of the corresponding accounts or splits. I tried the transaction report, and it sort of comes close, but there are a few problems with it.
12:14:33 <bozonius> We want a running balance, but the balances show for the other accounts, not just the customer's account.
12:14:45 <bozonius> and one of the debits seems to be in the wrong column.
12:15:25 <bozonius> This customer has a credit balance with us, and we want to be able to show how the balance changes. We are NOT using A/R or A/P for this, just regular accounts.
12:16:06 <bozonius> The shop owner, who I also sleep with, is annoyed that I cannot get this info,
12:16:20 <bozonius> so it is *sort* of important that I get this done...
12:16:31 <bozonius> :^p
12:16:54 <bozonius> (I admit this is probably easy if I just knew what to do)
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12:17:12 <bozonius> I've been playing with this for hours, and I cannot come up with a way to do it.
12:17:38 <bozonius> I tried the sort options, various display options and combinations, but it never generates the report the way we need it.
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12:20:19 <bozonius> Do I need A/R for this? (I hope not, but...)
12:20:35 <bozonius> then I can use the customer report, etc
12:21:02 <bozonius> I was hoping not to have to do this thanks to the issues with the "biz functions" as warlord calls them
12:22:27 <fell> bozonius: How are your usual transactions for the client looking?
12:22:38 <fell> Which accounts are affected?
12:22:56 <bozonius> thanks, fell.
12:23:06 <bozonius> well, most are splits
12:23:31 <bozonius> in fact, all of them are splits because there is always a service and a tip, so those go into separate revenue accounts
12:24:00 <bozonius> so it is debit cash or credit card processor, and credit particular service and credit tip
12:24:47 <bozonius> the only way to show the splits is to use multiline
12:24:52 <fell> But if she doesn't pay cash, cheque or bank transaction, where goes the other side?
12:25:07 <bozonius> oh, you mean for credit balance?
12:25:12 <fell> yep
12:25:46 <bozonius> debit to the liability account for her credit balance
12:26:29 <fell> open that account
12:26:31 <bozonius> (this is a normal account, not an A/P or A/R)
12:26:40 <bozonius> the liabilty account?
12:26:46 <fell> yes
12:27:11 <bozonius> yeah, that IS the one that is open when I run transx report
12:27:32 <bozonius> then do what?
12:28:30 <fell> If neccessary apply view->filter, ...->sort, ...
12:29:36 <bozonius> huh... never used those before
12:30:49 <bozonius> all the sort order does is change the order of the splits within the transx...is that what I want? not sure what to do here
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12:32:37 <bozonius> I see there are options for filtering just reconciled, cleared, voided, etc
12:32:59 <fell> I don't know, which you are in need for.
12:33:06 <bozonius> but that account is never really reconciled, per se. At least I've never seen a reason to do so.
12:33:13 <bozonius> Is that the ticket, though?
12:33:56 <bozonius> Do those options in the account affect the report output? I didn't think so, but perhaps they do.
12:34:59 <fell> That flags are usually used in reconciliation, e.g. if you compare your reords with a bank statement - or in this case with her statement.
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12:35:18 <bozonius> "her statement?"
12:35:41 <bozonius> sorry, not following you here
12:35:42 <fell> In case she sent you one.
12:35:47 <bozonius> no, she doesn't.
12:36:01 <bozonius> This is actually a report we'd like to send to HER.
12:36:19 <bozonius> So she can see she has a credit balance, how much, what she has spent her credit balance on, etc
12:38:15 <fell> If you run a txn report on this account and adjust the report options, where is the problem?
12:38:24 <bozonius> (see above)
12:38:32 <gjanssens> bozoninus: is the credit balance account shared by several customers ?
12:39:00 <bozonius> no, gjanssens, just one customer per account (and actually only one customer we are doing this for right now)
12:39:07 <gjanssens> also the View->Filter allows you to filter a certain date range
12:39:27 <bozonius> I have a placeholder called "prepaid services" and under that each customer (or just the one for the moment)
12:39:48 <bozonius> that filter is for the account itself, though, not the report. Does that impact the report?
12:39:55 <bozonius> the report has its own date range
12:40:23 <gjanssens> It doesn't impact the transaction report, but you can open an account report on any given accoutn
12:40:28 <gjanssens> account
12:40:39 <bozonius> right. I was trying to use the transaction report.
12:40:53 <bozonius> But I can't get the running balance right.
12:40:56 <gjanssens> That report will show all splits that you haven't filtered out by any of View->Filter by or Find
12:41:10 <bozonius> sure.
12:41:17 <gjanssens> I think it will even do a proper running balance
12:41:38 <bozonius> but here is the problem. I select the running balance. But I also have selected multiline.
12:42:19 <bozonius> that shows the splits. But the running balance also shows for those splits, which show the running balance of the related account (split) which I do not want on the customer report!
12:42:36 <bozonius> It doesn't HAVE to be done this way. I just thought that was the right way.
12:42:53 <gjanssens> heh, that's probably why warlord created the "biz features"
12:42:56 <gjanssens> :)
12:43:00 <bozonius> yes...
12:43:19 <bozonius> and as I mentioned a moment ago before you arrived, I was hoping to avoid those for this purpose
12:43:34 <gjanssens> What's in the splits that you want to show them to your customer ?
12:43:45 <bozonius> given the issues we have already beaten to death in our discussions concerning my other business
12:43:47 <gjanssens> Perhaps it's a matter of entering your transactions differently
12:44:04 <gjanssens> So you *can* generate the report you wish
12:44:10 <bozonius> In order to show the customer WHAT the transactoins were actually for
12:44:36 <gjanssens> How about putting that in the transaction description or in the transaction memo field ?
12:44:38 <bozonius> right, I could do that. Maybe. In some cases, that might be impossible to break out that way
12:44:46 <bozonius> I've done that, yes
12:45:04 <bozonius> but they only show if I select multiline, with the running balance problem
12:46:06 <bozonius> gjanssens, this customer comes in for a hair color, ok? So she pays, with ONE check, for her hair color AND a prepayment. This way, she doesn't have to write a check every week.
12:46:26 <bozonius> How would I break that up into seperate transactions?
12:46:45 <gjanssens> How do you enter this now ?
12:46:48 <bozonius> I'd have to have some intermediate account, which I could debit against.
12:47:34 <bozonius> Right now, I debit cash and credit revenue for salon services, tip, etc (sometimes she might buy retail too with her purchase) and credit her credit account
12:47:38 <bozonius> wrong?
12:49:28 <bozonius> I try to keep the transactions tight so I can see all the action in one place. It is harder to "lose" information this way.
12:50:03 <gjanssens> That's an ambiguous statement. Can you show one such transaction, or write it out here?
12:50:05 <bozonius> e.g., if the customer buys retail with her other purchases (color, shampoo set, etc), then I can also include the offsetting inventory and COGS amounts in the same transaction
12:50:18 <bozonius> debit cash $130
12:50:27 <bozonius> credit revenue $65
12:50:38 <bozonius> credit customer account $65
12:50:48 <bozonius> (that's simple, but illustrative)
12:50:54 <gjanssens> ok
12:51:08 <bozonius> now, gjanssens,
12:51:27 <gjanssens> And you want to show her all these splits ?
12:51:30 <bozonius> next week she comes in for maintenance on her color job. She buys a shampoo set.
12:51:38 <bozonius> so I would do something like this:
12:51:43 <bozonius> debit customer account $25
12:51:50 <bozonius> credit revenue $25
12:52:00 <bozonius> sort of accrual method
12:52:11 <bozonius> unless you know of a different way, yes
12:52:34 <gjanssens> hmm, not sure
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12:52:46 <bozonius> what I mean is that just showing the transactions on a particular date doesn't help the customer (or my gf) to figure out what she is spending her credit on
12:53:06 <bozonius> do you feel I am approaching this the wrong way?
12:53:15 <bozonius> do you have any customers with credit balances?
12:53:19 <bozonius> what do you do?
12:53:28 <bozonius> A/P?
12:53:33 <bozonius> A/R
12:53:36 <bozonius> idk
12:54:17 <gjanssens> You could try this:
12:54:29 <gjanssens> Go to the account hierarchy tab
12:54:36 <bozonius> I started to set up this customer as an A/R, but it's a bit weird having an asset account for what is really a liability...
12:54:40 <bozonius> ok
12:54:49 <gjanssens> Select Edit->Find
12:54:55 <bozonius> ok
12:55:40 <gjanssens> Search for "Account" "Matches any account" <customer's credit account>
12:55:52 <gjanssens> That will give you a multi-split search result
12:56:02 <gjanssens> Open Reports->Account Report on this
12:56:13 <gjanssens> That should list all the splits with one single running sum
12:56:17 <gjanssens> Will that work ?
12:57:16 <bozonius> :^ )
12:57:20 <bozonius> :^D
12:57:25 <bozonius> yeah, ok...
12:58:17 <bozonius> I got this another way, too.
12:58:34 <bozonius> If I open the customer credit account and select journal view.
12:59:25 <gjanssens> Indeed, that would give the same thing
12:59:28 <bozonius> but, I did not run the transx report, so I did not find this out... thank you
12:59:49 <gjanssens> you're welcome
13:00:25 <gjanssens> You could limit on date to your taste
13:00:53 <gjanssens> using View->Filter by
13:00:54 <bozonius> yes... I'll need to
13:01:07 <bozonius> or the date limts in the report dialog
13:01:16 <gjanssens> That is before running the Account report
13:01:26 <bozonius> (preferable, so I can save the report...)
13:01:26 <gjanssens> The Account report doesn't do date limits
13:01:45 <bozonius> aggggggh. ok
13:01:47 <bozonius> you are right
13:02:02 <gjanssens> unfortunately :(
13:02:08 <bozonius> : (
13:02:10 <bozonius> yes
13:02:16 <bozonius> well, this is much better.
13:02:43 <bozonius> now the only issue is how to show the beginning balance... that was entered as part of a big transaction on Jan 1
13:03:08 <bozonius> I guess I can go back and separate that part of the big transaction.
13:03:21 <bozonius> Or just tell the customer, verbally...
13:03:38 <bozonius> but that kinda defeats the purpose of all this a little bit
13:05:12 <gjanssens> Separating that part is probably the easiest solution
13:07:43 * gjanssens has got to leave now...
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13:08:01 <bozonius> thanks gjanssens_!
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19:49:34 <warlord> There we go.
19:49:44 <warlord> linas, mikee .. could one of you /op gncbot please?
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20:15:24 <keret> I posted on this channel a few days ago about a post I had made to the mailing list. See http://lists.gnucash.org/logs/2015/02/2015-02-09.html#T20:12:24.
20:16:30 <keret> I sent another email to gnucash-user-owner@gnucash.org a couple of days later - no reply.
20:17:07 <keret> I sent a further email to gnucash-user-request@gnucash.org earlier today. Will wait for a response.
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20:22:33 <keret> Apologies all and in particular to the mailing list moderator. My mistake. A simple web search would have (and has now) answered my concerns. :-/
20:23:00 <warlord> keret: the server has been down for a couple hours.
20:23:14 <keret> If anyone has any thoughts re charging back to an expense account, the original query can be found here http://lists.gnucash.org/pipermail/gnucash-user/2015-February/058352.html.
20:23:18 <warlord> I'm sure Liz will get to it, unless she thought it looked too much like Spam. But she's usually pretty good about it.
20:23:45 <warlord> keret: No, charge back to an Income account named "charged expenses"
20:23:48 <keret> warlord: thanks and sorry to waste your time. PEBKAC problem!
20:25:28 <keret> warlord: I referenced in my post an earlier mailing list query where this was discussed, including why charging to income account is not preferred. Why the restriction on users to determine where/how to record these transactions?
20:27:59 <keret> I am not restricted in allocating to an income, asset or liability account, but allocating as a reduction of a previous expense is not possible. Why?
20:28:36 <warlord> The restriction is in place to prevent mistakes.
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20:32:20 <warlord> 99% of the time using an expense account in an invoice is wrong.. (and similarly, using an income account in a bill would be similarly wrong)
20:32:37 <warlord> Note that all you NEED to do is create an account under expenses of type income ;)
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20:34:16 <keret> As a user, I consider it a mistake to be forced to allocate it as income. Why not have a similar restriction for assets/liabilities?
20:35:46 <warlord> "Inventory"
20:35:48 <keret> If I create an income type account under expenses as suggested, how will this show up in reporting?
20:36:37 <warlord> Honestly, I dont know.
20:37:01 <keret> Doesn't this still over-inflate expense figures with no immediate connection to any offsetting cash inflows received when reimbursed?
20:37:25 <keret> Re reporting, I can test at my end. Just thought you may know off hand.
20:38:18 <keret> Would probably require separating all such reimbursable expenses - ie creating a reimbursable expenses account to separate for other operating expenses.
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20:39:24 <warlord> That's why I suggest a special income account so you can (albeit manually) make the adjustment.
20:40:04 <keret> Seems like a lot more work when making such "mistakes" can be found using other means. In any case, should it be the designers role to help users avoid such "mistakes". How does gnc help prevent me from mis-allocating a telephone expense as a groceries expense?
20:40:35 <warlord> Yes, programs should try to keep people from shooting themselves in the foot.
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20:41:16 <warlord> It helps you by reminding you what you used last time you entered a telephone bill.
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20:43:46 <keret> I understand that feature can be of benefit on occasion. Equally it can also multiply errors. eg if I misallocate a new expense to groceries the first time it is encountered (or the first time I enter a unique description) that expense will continue to be misallocated as long as I continue to use that description.
20:43:59 <keret> So the system is not fail-safe, not should it be expected to be.
20:44:22 <warlord> Of course not.
20:44:36 <warlord> But mistakes should be prevented when and where they can.
20:44:50 <warlord> Invoices are for Income. Bills are for expenses.
20:45:53 <warlord> Anyways, if you don't like the behavior you're welcome to change the code to suit your needs.
20:46:00 <warlord> That's the wonderful thing about open source :)
20:46:05 <keret> Equally sensible to provide enough flexibility that users can record transactions as needed/preferred.
20:47:13 <warlord> Indeed.
20:47:29 <warlord> But like I said, 99% of the time what you're proposing will be wrong.
20:47:39 <warlord> So.... a decision was made to protect people from making a mistake 99% of the time.
20:47:59 <warlord> Note that I'm *pretty* sure you can still type in any valid account name.
20:48:06 <keret> "... you're welcome to change the code to suit your needs." If only I could learn Chinese in a matter of moments! :)
20:48:16 <warlord> It's not Chinese. It's C
20:48:19 <warlord> VERY different.
20:48:32 <keret> :-D
20:50:54 <keret> "99% of the time what you're proposing will be wrong." In this particular case, 2 entities have an arrangement where the majority of expenses incurred by entity A are reimbursable by entity B. And of all the options, a reduction of previously incurred expenses appears to be the most logical way of recording the reimbursements. So not so unusual after all.
20:51:28 <keret> There are other alternative, as you suggest, but these will require additional work.
20:51:32 <keret> So be it...
20:52:37 <keret> If only I could learn C in a matter of moments! Need to find that machine that uploads knowledge a la The Matrix.
20:53:39 <keret> Appreciate all the incredible work you've done, even if I do appear ungrateful with my comments...
20:53:59 <warlord> keret: did you try just typing in the Expense account?
20:54:11 <warlord> (note it wont autocomplete the name)
20:54:21 <keret> yes.
20:54:39 <warlord> And did it work?
20:55:42 <keret> Can't exactly recall the behaviour. It was a couple of weeks ago now. Will try that and report back. May have been fooled by the lack of auto-completion.
20:56:26 <warlord> Right.
20:56:34 <keret> I do recall no expense accounts showing up in the drop-down account list.
20:56:47 <keret> But that is probably related to auto-completion?
20:57:19 <warlord> Correct
20:58:48 <keret> I also recall I was attempting this by creating an invoice from entity A to entity B for reimbursement. As explained in my post, I marked billed items as billable. These showed up in the draft income, but I concluded that I could not allocate the item to an expense account.
20:58:51 <keret> Will test and return.
21:03:10 <keret> Ok, so I tested as follows...
21:03:26 <keret> Allocating an expense to Expenses:Test in a bill with item marked billable.
21:03:40 <keret> Create new invoice with billable item listed.
21:04:17 <keret> Allocate to "Income Account" by typing in full Expenses:Test.
21:04:57 <keret> On enter, Expenses:Test changes to Income (sole income account in this test file).
21:13:43 <warlord> ??? What do you mean "Expense:Test changes to Income"?
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21:28:50 <keret> I enter Expenses:Test and press Enter.
21:29:23 <keret> The string "Expenses:Test" reverts to "Income". Income is the name of the only Income account in the test file.
21:30:38 <keret> Added another Income:Test account under the previous Income account.
21:32:15 <keret> This time when I enter Expenses:Test an error dialog is displayed, "Invalid Entry: You need to supply an account in the right currency for this position. This account should usually be of type income."
21:40:39 <keret> The only sensible solution I can think of (for the time being and in the absense of amending any code) is as follows...
21:40:55 <keret> Allocate entity B's share of each billed expense to an asset account (eg Assets:Current assets:Other assets:Reimbursables:Entity B).
21:41:04 <keret> Allocate each invoiced billable item to the same account.
21:41:30 <keret> On posting each such invoice, the amount becomes receivable.
21:41:34 <keret> When paid the receivable is reduced and cash increased.
21:43:16 <keret> If the item is not reimbursed (ie invoice not paid), the receivable is decreased and expenses increased (if no payment expected - ie receivable written off) or retained (if payment still expected).
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