2015-02-08 GnuCash IRC logs

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01:26:32 <bozonius> "data loss issues" with SQL backend?
01:27:28 <bozonius> I JUST set up a MySQL database today... was going to give this approach a try
01:28:20 <bozonius> My thinking is that it should be possible to add RI checks to the database, which could help eliminate some problems that COULD arise if the same record ID is applied to different records
01:28:32 <bozonius> I actually was able to do that in the xml version
01:31:30 <bozonius> I also found out you can, under some circumstances at least, post the same invoice multiple times.
01:31:58 <bozonius> You can post from the Invoices dialog, and that does not seem to check if it is already posted (doesn't disable the post button)
01:33:01 <bozonius> I cannot get the record number formatting to work, either (File->Properties->Counters
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10:35:31 <christian> good morning falks
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12:27:01 <warlord> bozonius: yes. there are possibly still places where the code does not properly begin/commit_edit around data changes.
12:40:38 <warlord> bozonius: I cannot answer the number formatting thing for you -- note that it only works for "new" invoices, not existing ones.
12:41:38 <warlord> as for posting from the invoices dialog... That is a bug that should definitely be reported.
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14:08:54 <bozonius> does the number formatting ("counters") work for you -- maybe I am doing something wrong?
14:09:49 <bozonius> so, warlord, I should NOT use MySQL then?
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14:19:55 <bozonius> I am running 2.6.5 only at this point; I completely removed my distro's version
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14:20:47 <bozonius> I am going to start over again. I have about two months' info to re-enter. That's OK, I'll just consider the first try sort of a trial run, now that I know the gotchas
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14:29:06 <warlord> bozonius: I don't.
14:29:11 <warlord> I think other developers might.
14:29:28 <warlord> The main account data is generally pretty safe, but there are still occassional corner cases in the biz features.
14:30:13 * warlord has never tried the number formattng, but I know it ONLY works for new invoices, not for existing one.
14:32:51 <bozonius> I'd expect that, yes. We would not want it otherwise; it could cause major headaches to change the ID after it has been associated with other records
14:33:24 <bozonius> and as far as corner cases in the biz features, I've had enough issues already with problems in that area. So I'll stick with XML for now
14:35:13 <bozonius> I have a question about using invoices, though.
14:35:31 <bozonius> Is it OK/normal to use one invoice per billing period?
14:36:25 <bozonius> Also, I need to have one invoice per job, because there doesn't seem any way to combine these, even if some jobs are for one customer in the same period
14:36:59 <bozonius> I produce one customer report per period, which sort of summarizes the invoices for that period.
14:37:09 <bozonius> (or longer, it can have history, payments, etc)
14:37:20 <bozonius> so all that works. but is this the intended usage?
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14:39:17 <bozonius> The only area that might be a question is related to what you said about having multiple A/R accounts. I may have more than one client I work for. I say "client," not "customer," because I have one customer with multiple jobs, and other customers with just one job and all those customers are NOT related to the first customer.
14:40:17 <bozonius> I work for a main contractor, and then I do some freelance as well. I'd like to be able to see the status of my main contract separately from the rest because they are not billed to the same people at all.
14:40:49 <bozonius> There is also a chance, later on, that I might have another main contract.
14:41:23 <bozonius> I know I can produce reports, but I really like seeing the breakdown on the accounts list as a quick reference for me
14:44:33 <bozonius> I know I can have separate revenue accounts for each, but I'd also like to see A/R for each summarized
14:45:03 <bozonius> It DOES work, and in the first set of books I created, I did it that way w/o problems
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14:46:02 <bozonius> just have to carefully watch the account I post to, etc. But I have learned to be careful with ALL of the functions of gnucash anyway
14:49:06 <bozonius> s/contractor/customer/g throughout (sorry)
14:59:42 <bozonius> I just realized something. I could have ONE A/R and I could split the revenue accounts into unrealized and realized revenue. That just seems like more work, though. A/R could do that for me already with no additional work.
15:01:35 <warlord> not sure what you mean by "no way to combine them" w.r.t. invoices/jobs.
15:01:49 <bozonius> an invoice allows you to select ONE job.
15:01:55 <bozonius> no?
15:02:48 <warlord> bozonius: Run the aging report.
15:02:58 <bozonius> with my main customer, it would be nice to combine them, perhaps, since all those jobs get billed to the same person
15:03:02 <warlord> Thou shall NOT have multiple AR accounts.
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15:03:55 <warlord> IF you select a job. If you just select the customer it will combine them
15:04:30 <warlord> (i.e., dont invoice the job, invoice the customer)
15:04:36 <bozonius> so job is not a required field then?
15:04:42 <warlord> absolutely not
15:04:45 <bozonius> ah!
15:04:53 <bozonius> ok, I did NOT realize that at all
15:05:13 <bozonius> that WOULD be much, much more convenient.
15:05:42 <bozonius> why is it that gnucash can handle multiple A/R one for each currency, but not for other purposes?
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15:05:57 <bozonius> (just wondering, that's all)
15:06:16 <warlord> it CAN, it just makes life more difficult -- more rope to hang yourself (i.e., if you post the invoice and payment to different AR accounts)
15:06:23 <warlord> It was designed to have 1 AR per currency.
15:06:38 <warlord> And then use the reports to get any per-customer information you need
15:07:53 <bozonius> If I actually did post inv and pmt to different AR accounts, they can be reversed, can't they?
15:08:12 <bozonius> (I've unposted invoices)
15:09:22 <bozonius> (and reversing a payment is not too hard, either)
15:09:27 <gjanssens> It's no longer possible to post an invoice and payment to different AR accounts in the 2.6 series
15:09:55 <bozonius> good to hear, gjanssens!
15:09:58 <warlord> gjanssens: what if a customer has invoices in different AR accounts? How does it handle that?
15:10:10 <bozonius> why would they?
15:10:12 <gjanssens> warlord: separate payments
15:10:19 <warlord> (really, IMHO, it should prevent having multiple AR accounts of the same currency)
15:10:55 <bozonius> THAT seems complicated.
15:11:28 <gjanssens> The payment dialog allows you to select an AR account and will only list open documents and prepayments in that AR account
15:11:31 <bozonius> My thinking about A/R, in the accounting realm generally, is that there would be ONE A/R per customer, even if they are just subaccounts of one big A/R rollup account
15:12:08 <gjanssens> bozonius, that's not how it's done here in Belgium at least
15:12:24 <gjanssens> There's one A/R account to which *all* customer movements are posted
15:12:29 <bozonius> That one A/R per customer would have all the invoices and payments for that one customer
15:12:53 <gjanssens> There are reports to get overviews per customer
15:12:54 <warlord> bozonius: at that point there's no reason to use AR at all -- just enter raw transactions..
15:12:58 <bozonius> Well, I could be wrong. I'm not a professional accountant, though I did study it for 2 years in college
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15:13:25 <bozonius> ???? warlord ????
15:13:26 <warlord> The whole point of a combined AR was so that you wouldn't need an account per customer. That is, indeed, how it used to be done.
15:14:03 <warlord> Create an asset account for each customer. When you sell to them: Income -> Asset:Customer. When they pay, A:C -> A:Bank
15:14:12 <warlord> No need for invoices at all.
15:14:21 <gjanssens> warlord: regarding payments to invoices in different AR accounts - this is not supported in the engine code either
15:14:27 <warlord> You know exactly how much they owe you based on the current balance in the customer asset acocunt.
15:14:27 <bozonius> I have to invoice my main contract!
15:14:44 <gjanssens> You can't have a lot that spans several accounts, which is what you would need to make such a payment
15:15:03 <warlord> bozonius: you are confusing "sending them an invoice" with "creating an invoice in GnuCash"
15:15:08 <bozonius> Right, gjanssens. I agree. It would make no sense.
15:15:15 <warlord> GnuCash isn't an "invoice generation program". It's an accounting program.
15:15:28 <warlord> If you need an invoice generator there are many other options, like LibreOffice
15:15:37 <bozonius> for heavens sakes...
15:15:52 <bozonius> other accounting programs support invoicing as an integrated function.
15:15:53 <gjanssens> bozonius: that's how I currently do it :)
15:16:09 <gjanssens> Still you can generate invoices in gnucash
15:16:24 <warlord> bozonius: sure, and so does gnucash.
15:16:27 <bozonius> I'd rather. It has been very convenient for me
15:16:43 <bozonius> so if it is integrated, then why use an outside tool to do it?
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15:16:53 <bozonius> more work, more chance for errors etc
15:16:55 <warlord> But the point you're failing to grasp is that by using gnucash invoicing you no longer NEED to have a unique account per customer. GnuCash invoicing handles that for you automagically.
15:17:26 <warlord> bozonius: you're clearly not listening.
15:17:30 <bozonius> I took accounting in college. There may be one A/R main account, but there are subaccounts.
15:17:41 <warlord> "MAY"
15:17:45 <bozonius> (per customer, per job)
15:17:47 <warlord> That means "Optional"
15:18:02 <warlord> And for pen-and-paper accounting you do
15:18:09 <warlord> ... which is what all accounting classes teach
15:18:24 <warlord> GnuCash make MOST of pen-and-paper accounting irrelevant.
15:18:38 <bozonius> that could be an issue
15:18:57 <bozonius> is this how, say, quickbooks or other major systems work?
15:19:15 <warlord> I have no idea how quickbooks works.
15:19:19 <warlord> I've never used it.
15:19:25 <bozonius> I mean, a professional bookkeeper or accountant has expectations, based on what you call "pen-and-paper" accounting
15:19:46 <warlord> IANAA
15:20:15 <warlord> But I think every REAL accountant realizes that it's the end that matters, not the means.. And you use tools to make those ends easier to reach.
15:20:16 <bozonius> I think an accountant or bookkeeper would prefer that their software works the same way they do
15:20:24 <bozonius> no.
15:20:27 <bozonius> I disagree with that.
15:20:34 <warlord> Then you're a bonehead :)
15:20:38 <bozonius> Thanks.
15:20:44 <bozonius> Not bonehead, bozonius.
15:20:46 <warlord> Your'r welcome
15:20:50 <warlord> LOL
15:21:05 <bozonius> I do get what you are saying.
15:21:14 <bozonius> It's just not my expectation, that's all.
15:21:19 <warlord> You probably walk through airports and skip the moving walkways because they make traveling too easy? ;)
15:21:28 <bozonius> Oh no. never.
15:21:49 <bozonius> Always use them, even if it means walking back to the start of them, when I am already almost to the end of them.
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15:21:55 <bozonius> :^D
15:22:58 <bozonius> (I love those moving walkways)
15:23:15 <bozonius> (are you kidding, wouldn't miss one for the world, esp the ones that go 1/4 of a mile)
15:23:34 <bozonius> (not too many fun things for free in this world anymore)
15:23:42 <bozonius> (so you are wrong about me)
15:24:08 <warlord> You did just sort of make my point: my point is that tools exist to make life easier.. but only when you use that tool as it's supposed to be used.
15:24:55 <warlord> In this case, GnuCash invoicing was designed to use a single AR instead of the "old way" of having a unique account per customer/job
15:24:56 <gjanssens> bozonius: I have used several other accounting programs besided gnucash
15:25:19 <gjanssens> All are endorsed by accountants here and accepted by the government
15:25:31 <gjanssens> The all have one single AR account
15:25:37 <bozonius> ok
15:25:48 <gjanssens> They all manage to create invoices for individual customers
15:25:56 <gjanssens> And track your business per customer
15:26:10 <bozonius> actually, gnucash DOES do that just fine.
15:26:33 <bozonius> the issue here is just my own convenience. I suppose the aging report would be ok
15:27:09 <bozonius> I just like to be able to look at all my accounts and see a snapshot of my overall position without having to run one or more reports.
15:27:35 <gjanssens> Fair enough
15:27:37 <bozonius> I mean, the way the accounts tab is set up now is you see pretty much the balance sheet/income sheet in one glance
15:27:40 <bozonius> But
15:27:55 <bozonius> in all fairness to you and warlord (who has been very helpful, thank you)
15:28:05 <gjanssens> Try the Customer overview tab ?
15:28:08 <bozonius> I'll abide by the rules and live with this
15:28:21 <bozonius> customer overview -- I use it all the time.
15:28:28 <bozonius> I like that you can configure it, too
15:28:40 <gjanssens> And that doesn't give you the overview you need/want ?
15:29:42 <bozonius> for customers, yes.
15:30:04 <bozonius> What I mean is it doesn't show, for instance, the aging info. np, really.
15:30:13 <bozonius> aging report for that, that's all
15:30:15 <bozonius> no worries
15:30:44 <bozonius> I am NOT trying to give poor warlord a hard time really
15:30:44 <gjanssens> ok
15:30:44 <bozonius> and I apologize if I upset warlord
15:31:17 <bozonius> so is the rule one A/P account also (not that I'll be using that much I believe)
15:31:23 <bozonius> ?
15:31:44 <gjanssens> yep
15:31:57 <bozonius> that's good, for consistency at least
15:32:02 <bozonius> OK
15:32:08 <gjanssens> And just for playing devil's advocate: I have been using multiple AP accounts for years :)
15:32:20 <bozonius> WHAAAAAAAT?
15:32:24 <gjanssens> Against all recommendations :D
15:32:29 <bozonius> apostosy!
15:32:34 <bozonius> hypocrit!
15:32:44 <bozonius> criminal!
15:32:45 <gjanssens> Just to point out - gnucash is a tool
15:32:51 <gjanssens> Use it as it serves you best
15:32:52 <bozonius> yes, of course it is
15:33:08 <bozonius> unless that creates grief for folks like... well
15:33:16 <bozonius> Mr. w
15:33:31 <gjanssens> It was designed with certain use cases in mind, so outside of these the results may vary
15:33:47 <bozonius> I rely on you both for support, so I'll try to stick to the plan
15:34:10 <gjanssens> Just for full disclosure
15:34:21 <bozonius> no problems with multiple A/P over the years?
15:34:21 <gjanssens> I needed a way to keep track of pro-forma invoices
15:34:36 <gjanssens> And having two AP accounts was the best I could come up with
15:34:51 <gjanssens> To suite *my* preferred use of gnucash
15:35:02 <gjanssens> warlord never endorsed the usage either :)
15:35:10 <bozonius> so your subcontractors (or whomever) needed to send you partial invoices during the month?
15:35:43 <gjanssens> No, a vendor would not send me goods unless they were paid in advance
15:36:03 <bozonius> ah, ok.
15:36:10 <gjanssens> So they send a pro-forma invoice - a document that would become an invoice after receiving the goods
15:36:25 <gjanssens> I wanted to track those in addition to tracking the real invoices
15:36:45 <bozonius> makes a lot of sense. I'm sort of in a similar situation myself.
15:36:47 <gjanssens> As I found out that sometimes payments would happen twice
15:37:50 <gjanssens> But in the end I stopped doing this, because it did make matters more complicated
15:38:05 <gjanssens> And if I didn't pay attention I'd mess up my tax declarations
15:38:12 <bozonius> yipes.
15:38:24 <bozonius> that would be a nightmare, yes.
15:38:52 <gjanssens> But there you go - gnucash can have multiple AP accounts if you really insist :)
15:39:21 <bozonius> My main customer I invoice needs a monthly so they can bill their clients with them.
15:39:44 <bozonius> I mean, they don't actually use MY invoices per se
15:39:54 <bozonius> but they need the summaries and totals by month
15:39:55 <bozonius> OTOH
15:40:18 <bozonius> I need to get paid more often than that, and posting and then unposting the invoices gets to be a bit... well
15:40:28 <bozonius> I haven't figured out yet how I will be doing that.
15:41:11 <gjanssens> It looks to me you want to create invoices more regularly then
15:41:13 <bozonius> as it is, my girlfriend is getting irritated waiting for me to get paid. We have a lot of expenses with the car and gas, fixing it, etc
15:41:34 <gjanssens> And send your customer a monthly summary, like the aging report
15:41:58 <bozonius> well, I could do incremental billing to them. but they will probably (based on how I know they operate) want one for the whole month also
15:42:07 <bozonius> hmmm
15:42:19 <bozonius> you know, it is good you are going over all this with me
15:42:54 <bozonius> makes me think about a lot of stuff
15:43:14 <bozonius> but this issue with incremental/monthly invoices is distinct from the mult A/R issue
15:43:22 <bozonius> just another thing I am thinking about
15:43:52 <bozonius> I need to ask them if I am allowed to invoice them more often than at the end of the cycle.
15:43:54 <gjanssens> Well, accounting-wise you can't send your customer both incremental invoices and one monthly
15:44:01 <bozonius> right.
15:44:02 <gjanssens> That would mean you invoice your customer twice
15:44:07 <bozonius> right.
15:44:09 <bozonius> exactly
15:44:28 <bozonius> I think the monthly summary is good, and I actually do that now
15:44:57 <bozonius> I send them the "Customer Report" which shows the applied payments and outstanding balances, and I also send them the invoices
15:45:03 <warlord> sorry, went afk for a while (trying to get real work done)... and now heading out for a bit. Sorry.
15:45:14 <gjanssens> warlord: np
15:45:21 <bozonius> which total up to the amounts on the summary (Cust Rpt)
15:46:24 <gjanssens> looks good to me
15:48:22 <bozonius> just sent email to the customer asking if he is OK with your approach
15:48:40 <bozonius> He gets confused easily, and is not very organized (to put it mildly)
15:48:48 <bozonius> not just with the accounting, either...
15:49:01 <bozonius> he loses important papers, etc, related to the work
15:49:07 <gjanssens> oops
15:49:16 <bozonius> I don't want to add to the drama this creates
15:49:31 <bozonius> big oops, gjanssens. big oops. all the time
15:49:51 <bozonius> Add to that all the nonsense paperwork I have to submit for his clients, and...
15:49:59 <bozonius> ah-yah-yah. *headslap*
15:50:37 <bozonius> in the worst case, I could just unpost, update, and repost the invoices, and resend them.
15:50:43 <bozonius> PITA, but one way to do it
15:52:24 <gjanssens> :)
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15:56:55 <bozonius> would it work to have one running invoice forever that way?
15:57:14 <bozonius> applying payments along the way, adding new entries for further billing, like that?
15:57:22 <bozonius> a bit unkosher, just wondering though
15:59:05 <bozonius> I think I want to permanently close those invoices for each billing cycle and start a new one
16:07:44 <gjanssens> Hmm, you can't apply payments to an unposted invoice
16:08:32 <gjanssens> That is because for gnucash an unposted invoice doesn't really exist in the accounts
16:08:51 <gjanssens> You can apply payments to the customer directly though
16:09:20 <gjanssens> And once you post the invoice you could the link that invoice with all the matching payments via the Process Payment dialog
16:09:37 <gjanssens> But as long as the invoice is not posted it will not even appear in the customer report
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18:07:24 <bozonius> oh no
18:07:47 <bozonius> what I meant (sorry I've been away) is that I could repost then take another payment, like that
18:07:59 <bozonius> of course I can't apply payment to unposted invoices
18:08:03 <bozonius> I know that.
18:08:38 <bozonius> I was just thinking that, this way, I could have one running invoice record/item for each job or customer
18:08:46 <bozonius> but there is really no point to that.
18:08:59 <bozonius> it's easier to just start a new invoice for each month per customer, right?
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18:45:05 <bozonius> is there a way to get the job report to show hours for the job? It doesn't seem to be an option.
18:45:21 <bozonius> I tried custom reports, but I don't see how to do this.
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19:52:52 <warlord> bozonius: no, because gnucash doesn't track hours.
20:05:22 <warlord> bozonius: every time you unpost it you'll lose all payment attachments..
20:05:34 <warlord> It's much better to have distinct invoices for the billable time.
20:05:44 <warlord> Then just send them the customer report, as you've been doing.
20:05:52 <warlord> Indeed, that's exactly what it was designed for! :)
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22:24:39 <bozonius> ok, thanks. There is a field for hours in the A/R register, though. That's how it calculates the extensions...
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22:51:57 <warlord> bozonius: There is nothing special about that. It's not an "hours" field. The number field, you'll notice, is labeled "Quantity". Not "Hours". Hours is just one of the pre-provided actions, but you could type anything you wanted in there, too.
22:52:01 <warlord> There's nothing special about it.
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