2014-11-04 GnuCash IRC logs

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11:11:10 <josh> Hello all! I'm having difficulty with the online "Issue Transaction" action. It doesn't seem to do anything and I can't find any logging output
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11:18:20 <warlord> josh: are you in germany?
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11:51:52 <josh> warlord: Nope, US
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12:51:31 <kimmo2> love the latency
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13:05:42 <jralls> gjanssens: I think a change of tack is required for the pre-built packages on win32. After you found it necessary to remove the .la files from gnome/lib to get the build working, I've been leaving them out of everything, and it's led to a cascade of link errors.
13:09:28 <jralls> gjanssens: So I propose to leave them in and run a sed script on them to change the root directory to $FOO_UDIR.
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13:10:20 <jralls> ganssens: Think that will work?
13:14:43 <gjanssens> jralls: remind me - are the .la files only used during building or also when gnucash is running ?
13:15:07 <gjanssens> If the former I expect it could work
13:15:46 <gjanssens> (Although my preferred way of changing things like this is with perl -pi -e'<regex>' file)
13:16:12 <gjanssens> (Instead of the two-step sed bla; mv bla -- but that's just personal taste :)
13:16:51 <gjanssens> I vaguely remember there was some code to modify la files in a similar way somewhere in the build scripts
13:17:06 <gjanssens> I'm not sure if this is still there and for which component it was.
13:18:52 <gjanssens> It seems to be in dist.sh
13:20:05 <gjanssens> Well, dist-imp.sh now, in function dist_finish
13:21:06 <gjanssens> Originally added by Andreas Köhler in 2006 (commit 6bb311ae960de29d8dc9f9562d3194e6b3b75d54)
13:22:44 <gjanssens> I don't remember actually if the *.la files caused errors during build or while running gnucash...
13:22:58 <gjanssens> My commit is rather vague at that as well I'm afraid
13:23:41 <gjanssens> It says "build failure" but knowing me that could just as well have meant "while running gnucash"
13:24:01 <gjanssens> Anyway, I'm just thinking out loud here
13:24:18 <gjanssens> Andreas' commit suggests we may have to work in two stages:
13:24:22 <jralls> gjanssens: Libtool isn't invoked at runtime, only at build time. The Win32 linker embeds the name but not rpath of the dll in the exe, and requires that the dll be on the path.
13:25:08 <gjanssens> Interesting. Why did Andreas then decide to remove the redirections in the dist step only ?
13:25:41 <gjanssens> So two stages might be: correct path in .la files during build
13:25:54 <gjanssens> Remove redirection before distributing
13:26:23 <gjanssens> We can start with the first part and see if the second part is still needed
13:26:45 <kimmo2> hmmmh
13:28:22 <jralls> He didn't. That comments out the libdir line at the bottom to silence some of the 'foo.la appears to have been moved' warnings. It doesn't fix the dependencies paths.
13:30:22 <gjanssens> Oh, ok. Would these moved warnings appear while running gnucash or while linking it ?
13:30:57 <gjanssens> I would have thought these fixes would be needed during build, not during distribution
13:31:09 <gjanssens> s/needed/useful/
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13:33:00 <jralls> Didn't make myself clear, I guess. I'm talking about the packages like glib, cairo, webkit, etc. that I'm building and making tarballs of to use when building GnuCash.
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13:35:18 <jralls> Setting aside that I'm building them in a separate directory from /c/gcdev, we have three build directories for distributions, gcdev, gcdev-maint, and gcdev/gnucash-<release>. We don't want the latter two to be pulling in libraries from gcdev.
13:36:28 <jralls> A bit of background: At runtime, the loader looks for dlls on the executable path.
13:36:54 <jralls> At build time the linker encodes the dll names into the executable image. Win32 doesn't do rpaths.
13:38:54 <jralls> At build time libtool looks first for a .la file to tell it what is the name of and path to the dll, what are the paths to the la files of the dll's dependencies, and what was the installation prefix of the la file, plus some other stuff that isn't important to this discussion.
13:41:56 <jralls> It checks the installation prefix against the path that was passed in to it and issues the familiar libtool: link: warning: `c:/gcdev/gnucash-2.6.4/mingw/lib/libintl.la' seems to be moved if they don't match.
13:43:43 <jralls> Then it follows the "dllname=' entry to find the actual dll to pass to the linker.
13:44:10 <jralls> Finally it looks at the "dependency_libs=
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13:46:54 <jralls> darn. that line to see what other .la files it needs to pull in so that the linker knows everything it needs to link. That list has absolute paths, and that's the problem. If the dependency was built along with what we're building now, no problem, the path will be right. If not, then it probably needs to be adjusted, and that adjustment is what I propose.
13:50:21 <jralls> If you look at a .la you'll see that the dependency_libs is really an LDFLAGS, with the -L arguments pointing to the lib directory and -l arguments being short names. That's perfect for Unix, not so much for Windows where the dlls are put in the bin directory and given version-qualified names.
13:54:34 <jralls> Since we're already setting the link paths in the environment, we might be able to just remove the -L arguments, which would be easier than reliably parsing them to find exactly the right amount to replace.
13:54:51 * gjanssens is looking in his test box for a .la file which still has depencency_libs
13:55:22 <gjanssens> Yes that looks like a good way forward
13:58:29 <gjanssens> At least it's worth a try
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14:02:10 <warlord> josh: that's why it doesn't work. None of the US-based finance protocols have a supported "initiate transaction" function. They are pull/read-only
14:02:12 <kimmo2> why is the world broken?
14:05:07 <warlord> gjanssens, jralls: IMHO I think the .la files are only needed for building and do not need to be included in the dist to run gnucash.
14:05:25 <warlord> kimmo2: standards are great! Everyone should have one...
14:05:29 <jralls> warlord: That's correct.
14:06:10 <kimmo2> warlord, at my customer, we have a set of Standard Customer Service Implementation processes, slightly different for every customer
14:08:58 <warlord> kimmo2: exactly
14:09:29 <kimmo2> it's a pain in the butt, but at least my end product, which is "hours spent" is greatly enhanced
14:09:40 <kimmo2> it's like a synergy
14:10:09 <kimmo2> ITIL + SCSI + KOP (Keeping Our Promises initiative)
14:10:36 <kimmo2> turning a switch on; 20 hours of my work, plus a number of hours from the switch turners and documentation reviewers
14:12:20 <gjanssens> warlord: that makes it sound as if Andreas' commit made no sense at all
14:12:27 <gjanssens> The dist script is run well after the build
14:13:03 <gjanssens> (This is unrelated to the issue jralls has btw, I just noticed this while looking around for the current *.la issues)
14:13:24 <gjanssens> Would dlopen() use *.la files ?
14:13:38 <warlord> gjanssens: nope
14:13:48 <warlord> lt_dlopen might
14:15:10 <josh> warlord: Ah, that would do it! thanks!
14:15:28 <warlord> josh: you're welcome.
14:15:36 <warlord> Sorry it's not the answer you were hoping for.
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14:29:01 <jralls> Guile load needs lt_dlopen, so we need to have the guile and gncmod .la files available at runtime. That often trips me up on the mac side because jhbuild removes them and I have to put them back before building the bundle.
14:29:30 <jralls> s/load/load-dynamic/
14:49:59 <gjanssens> So that's the key and probably the reason Andreas uncommented the libdir lines
14:50:53 <gjanssens> So for all libraries we load via load-dynamic (or by extension load-extension) we should preserve the .la files
14:51:46 <gjanssens> I just discovered today that all or libgncmod* modules fall in that category together with libgnc-core-utils
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14:56:10 <jralls> Actually, Andreas *commented* the libdir lines to keep the "seems to be moved" message out of the tracefile.
14:58:49 <jralls> The whole module architecture is a royal PITA. Does Guile really need it?
15:00:55 <jralls> I'm summoned for lunch. Back in an hour or so.
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15:05:04 <gjanssens> jralls: heh, I meant to say *commented*. Got struck by language dyslexia :)
15:05:15 <gjanssens> Or something like that...
15:06:08 <gjanssens> If you refer to the gnc-module constructs we use for app-utils, engine and friends
15:06:13 <gjanssens> No that's not required for guile
15:06:38 <gjanssens> our core-utils lib is not using gnc-module and can still be accessed just fine by guile
15:08:16 <gjanssens> I'm actually in favour of removing gnc-module from what I tend to see as "libgnucash"
15:09:08 <gjanssens> And even from the main gui parts as well
15:09:56 <gjanssens> In fact from anything that's not marked an "optional" module
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16:20:29 <jralls> @op
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16:21:52 <jralls> gjannssens: We can still have multiple shared libraries, but dlopening things is really slow, and lt-dloopening even slower because of the text file indirection.
16:22:50 <jralls> The optional stuff is all build-time optional anyway. I suppose in theory it's run-time optional, but we don't do that, we load everything up at startup.
16:24:27 <jralls> warlord: Do you have any sentiments one way or the other about modules vs. shared libs? I remember cstim saying a couple of years ago that he wanted to get rid of the modules.
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16:41:59 <warlord> jralls: I have no sentiments.. I do think we still need to "support" modules, but I dont have a strong opinion about what to do with (most of) the current code
16:43:12 <jralls> Could you elaborate on '"support" modules'?
16:47:09 <warlord> I mean that we shouldn't rip out the module loading code.
16:47:23 <warlord> Some features (like optional plugins) should still remain as modules
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16:56:13 <lmat_> The last thing I read from warlord is "Some features (like optional..." Did I miss anything else here?
16:56:39 <kimmo2> just a few parts
16:56:45 <jralls> lmat_ Nothing between that and now.
16:56:53 <lmat_> jralls: thanks :)
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16:57:25 <kimmo2> hmm, does 2.6 have cost center/dimensions yet?
16:57:55 <warlord> kimmo2: no
16:58:08 <lmat_> Is it possible to take a copy of gnucash that was compiled with an optional module, and remove that module without recompiling?
16:59:05 <kimmo2> ok, so patches are still welcome
16:59:06 <kimmo2> :D
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17:04:59 <jralls> lmat_: I think so. Try moving libgncmod-aqbanking.* from prefix/lib/gnucash and then start gnucash. I think it will start up OK, and the online banking stuff will be disabled or missing entirely.
17:05:20 <lmat_> jralls: cool!
17:05:57 <jralls> Not really. There's a lot of overhead that makes that work.
17:06:24 <kimmo2> anyone familiar with perl-qt4 by any chance?
17:07:52 <lmat_> jralls: Naturally.
17:08:36 <lmat_> jralls: My first thought was: "gnucash should be all linked together. How big are the optional modules anyway? Who would want to take out a module at runtime and not be able to do so at compile time?"
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17:12:29 <jralls> lmat_: One can take it out at compile time, of course, by not building it. I suppose one might speed up loading GnuCash or make it usable in a small-memory system by removing some optional modules that one doesn't need.
17:12:40 <jralls> As for how big they are, go look for yourself.
17:13:50 <jralls> To see which ones are optional, see src/bin/gnucash-bin.c around line 447. The bool in each tuple is whether that module is optional.
17:14:57 <jralls> warlord: Why do you want to keep it? It's not like a user can write a plugin and get GnuCash to load it, though I suppose we could add that ability if there was a reason to.
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17:40:11 <warlord> jralls: what do you mean? Sure a user could do that. We don't make it *easy*, but t's certainly doable, even today.
17:41:14 <warlord> It's overhead to make it work, but it's overhead that's been well tested.
17:41:31 <kimmo2> overhead, I like it
17:41:38 <kimmo2> it's what makes the world go around
17:41:50 <kimmo2> without overhead, we'd have mobs of angry business controllers
17:41:53 <kimmo2> :D
17:42:20 <kimmo2> hordes of middle management without any real skills except poor micromanagement
17:45:04 <jralls> Gotta run an errand, biab.
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18:21:39 <jralls> @op
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