2014-09-10 GnuCash IRC logs

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07:33:43 <david> Hi guys. I'm back. more questions. I hope my questions aren't too basic.......
07:33:43 <gncbot> david: Sent 16 hours and 20 minutes ago: <lmat> there is an *excellent* gnucash user guide. It taught me everything I know about double-entry accounting and how to implement it with GNUcash.
07:36:12 <david> As I said before, I'm the Treasurer for my Volleyball club. We have very few income/expense transactions.
07:39:26 <david> Income: Membership Fees, Subsidy, Interest Income. Expenses: Gym Rental, League Fees, Equipment, Tournament Fees, Parting Gifts
07:40:50 <david> Question 1: Last year, we bought new jerseys, which the club bought but then players bought...would that be an Income, Expense, Asset, Liability? Some jerseys were bought by the club without a name/number for future players.
07:45:34 <david> Question 2: People pay their yearly Membership Fees, either in cash to me or paying directly to the bank (teller or bank transfer). We have Full-Season and Half-Season, and Full Fees and Reduced Fees (interns, retired, etc.). As per the suggestions above, I created an Account for each Player (Alison, David, Joana, etc.). But, what should I put in the "Description" field? Repeat the name of the player? "Club Fees 2009-2010"? something else?
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07:53:44 <david> Question 3: We have two gyms and practice/play Tuesdays and Wednesdays. Players generally only play on either Tuesday or Wednesday. Their payments are thus loosely attributed to either Tuesday or Wednesday. The guy who runs the Tuesday group usually collects money from the Tuesday players and then makes a transfer from his account to the Club account. How/where would make sense to record each player's payment and mark the day they play, too?
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08:29:26 <warlord> david: #1: The shirts would be an Asset while in your inventory. The cost of the shirts would be an expense, and then you'd receive income when they get bought.
08:29:59 <warlord> For #2: You can put in whatever you want. It's there for your use.
08:30:36 <warlord> (Do you mean the txn desc?? If so, I would suggest you put the player's name and their level. E.g., Alice Yearly Fees)
08:31:38 <warlord> W.r.t. #3, gnucash is an accounting program, so it's really not designed to keep track of which day they play.
08:32:44 <warlord> However, keeping track of their payments is easy.. create another account for the "Tuesday Guy", record their payments into there, and then transfer from there to the main bank when that happens.
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09:49:37 <warlord> Geeze, there are at least 5 different bots probing right now.
09:52:02 <warlord> I wonder if I should block all robots except for e.g. google?
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10:23:16 <david> warlord, thanks for the help. i think i'll skip the Full/Half Season and Full/Reduced Price info.
10:23:31 <david> I'll have to think (to understand) about the jerseys....
10:24:30 <warlord> The jerseys are like inventory. You buy them (an expense) and sell them (income).
10:24:43 <warlord> While they are in your posession, however, they are an asset.
10:25:03 <warlord> So... technically the "expense" only happens when you sell them.. It's called "Cost of Goods Sold"
10:25:54 <lmat> warlord: How do the transactions look?
10:26:18 <lmat> warlord: expense:cogs -> assets:jerseys ; assets:jerseys -> assets:current; but where does the income come in?
10:27:39 <warlord> lmat: you would have a 3-or-4-split txn... When you buy the jersey it's a single transaction from Cash -> Asset. Then when you sell it's the multi-split between Asset, Cash, Income, and Expense.
10:29:11 <lmat> assets:current -> assets:jerseys ; then assets:jerseys -> assets:cash (to cover cogs) and income:sales -> assets:cash (profit) ?
10:31:16 <warlord> lmat: no, you need to include expense to cover cogs
10:31:21 <warlord> cogs is an expense
10:37:27 <bhardwajs> Wouldn't this depend on account method used? If it's a cash-based accounting, then wouldn't it be an expense to begin with?
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10:45:18 <lmat> when purchasing: liability:AP -> assets:jerseys; when selling, revenue:sales -> assets:AR; assets:jerseys -> expense:cogs
10:45:55 <lmat> bhardwajs: I think with cash-basis accounting, the only difference is changing AR and AP to assets:current ?
10:46:17 <warlord> bhardwajs: nope, it is definitely not an expense until it's sold.
10:46:30 <warlord> (IANAA, so temper that response accordingly)
10:47:33 <warlord> lmat: yes, that way works... I was just suggesting doing the sales txn in one txn instead of two
10:48:12 <lmat> warlord: Sure, they should probably be on just one. (I wasn't trying to specify one or two there, just giving some debits and credits ^_^)
10:48:32 <lmat> bhardwajs: expense:cogs answers the question "where did the jerseys go?"
10:51:58 <lmat> but amounts...
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10:53:18 <lmat> for amounts, http://sprunge.us/YEDd
10:53:33 <lmat> bhardwajs: Does that look right to you? (I changed AP and AR...)
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10:57:05 <david> (trying to follow....)
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11:04:57 <bhardwajs> lmat: Yeah, that's what I end up doing in my personal accounting.
11:05:08 <bhardwajs> (BTW, glad to have IRC fully functioning. :))
11:05:32 <lmat> david: Did you get my message yesterday ^_^
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11:05:44 <lmat> bhardwajs: I'm happy for you!
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11:08:45 <gjanssens> lmat: david got your message: http://lists.gnucash.org/logs/2014/09/2014-09-10.html#T07:33:43
11:09:04 <gjanssens> It's delivered automatically whenever the recipient speaks up for the first time again...
11:09:36 <gjanssens> I can't guarantee he also read it of course :)
11:09:55 <lmat> david: Oh, I just realized that the jersey stuff is for you!
11:10:19 <lmat> gjanssens: I'm glad it worked! His loss if he didn't read it ;-)
11:13:56 <david> lmat: you mean about the user guide? yes, i saw that, thanks.
11:15:52 <fell> Hm, on gnucash/maint I get:
11:15:54 <fell> /home/frank/devel/git/gnucash.org/gnucash/src/backend/dbi/gnc-backend-dbi.c:245:5: error: passing argument 1 of 'gnc_dbi_set_error' from incompatible pointer type [-Werror]
11:15:55 <fell> gnc_dbi_set_error( conn, ERR_BACKEND_MISC, 0, FALSE );
11:17:28 <lmat> fell: You're on a406186?
11:17:51 <fell> yep
11:18:09 <david> ok, another question.....i've created accounts for all players to record their payments of membership fees and i've recorded payments accordingly......
11:18:18 <lmat> fell: building now
11:19:00 <lmat> david: Are these asset accounts or revenue accounts? Or customers with invoices?
11:19:12 <david> when i look at the accounts, sometimes it looks as I expect: Konrad has made 5 payments over the years, listed as Income, and the balance increases accordingly.....
11:20:24 <david> but another account (they are Income:Club Fees:Person A, Person B, etc.) created the same way, used in the same way, shows "Expense and Rebate" and the balance is in the red, going down each time (-60, -140, -220).
11:21:03 <david> why is this happening? should i do anything to avoid it? how do i prevent it from happening?
11:21:05 <lmat> david: So person A's account is working fine, but person B's account is busted?
11:21:19 <david> Oh, and can accounts/sub-accounts have spaces in the name?
11:21:39 <david> yes, Person A working, Person B is not. And they were created in the same way, one after the other.
11:21:47 <lmat> david: There are a few things to check.
11:22:04 <lmat> david: double click Person A and person B in the chart of accounts (COA)
11:22:25 <lmat> david: Ensure that the payments are on the correct sides of the ledger.
11:22:43 <lmat> david: If everything checks out there, right-click the accounts in the COA and ensure that they're both actually "Income"-type accounts.
11:22:52 <lmat> fell: Finished compiling. Everything's fine.
11:22:56 <david> "right" = not left? or "right" = correct?
11:23:05 <lmat> david: "right" = correct ^_^
11:23:37 <david> well, like i said, in one case, I see "Charge" and "Income" and in the other "Expense" and "Rebate"
11:23:41 <lmat> fell: here's what I did: cd ~/sources/gnucash; git clean -fdx && ./autogen.sh && ./configure --prefix /home... && make
11:23:45 <gjanssens> david: check the account types of the various player accounts. It looks to me you may have different account types
11:24:07 <lmat> david: That points to the account types. Take my second suggestion and ensure that the account type is "Income" (I think that's what you want)
11:24:21 <lmat> (mine all say "debit" and "credit"...lucky you!)
11:24:26 <david> Nope, I've checked and double checked...they are the same. I have 50 accounts, all created one after the other...... only this one is wrong.
11:24:45 <lmat> david: hmm... how do you check?
11:25:08 <david> ok, i guess i didn't check. for some reason it was listed as Expense. all better now. i was *sure* i had looked at that.
11:25:25 <david> thank you!
11:25:26 <lmat> jralls: What's the next work I should do? It looks like kvp should be ripe for creating a c++ interface?
11:25:47 <david> still need to digest the whole jersey issue......
11:25:48 <lmat> david: Glad you got it sorted!
11:25:49 <fell> lmat: OK, then it's still something in my eclipse setting not cleaning the right way.
11:26:31 <david> but, wait, should equipment (nets, balls, etc.) be an asset or a simple expense? in one way or another, they are in inventory, right?
11:27:00 <gjanssens> david: only things you sell are inventory in accounting terms
11:28:07 <gjanssens> But next to inventory also goods that keep some value are considered assets
11:28:11 <lmat> david: Another reason you would want to keep track of something is if you want to "depreciate" it. Unless it's a golden snitch, you probably don't want to track a ball that way ^_^
11:28:29 <david> ah, ok. thanks. both of you.
11:28:46 <gjanssens> Anything else is probably just an expense.
11:29:11 <gjanssens> You may want to keep track of the amount of nets and balls you have, but that is independent of your financial accounting.
11:29:42 <david> so, the jerseys that i spoke of earlier...they are not really sold, it's just that the club fronted the money for the purchase, and each player for their jersey....should i treat it more like a loan?
11:30:08 <david> ....each player *paid* for their jersey....
11:30:31 <lmat> david: Good question.
11:30:44 <lmat> david: Was any money made on the jerseys?
11:30:54 <david> nopoe.
11:32:17 <lmat> david: So you agree that when you purchase the jerseys, you should have a transaction like assets:current -> assets:jerseys ?
11:33:43 <lmat> david: (this says that currency went out and jerseys went in.)
11:34:41 <lmat> fell: How do you like Eclipse as a C/c++ ide?
11:37:04 <david> lmat: i'm not sure. i'm trying to decide/understand if i want assets:jerseys, or just expense it to equipment, like with nets, balls, etc. or if i should have a Loan:Jerseys 2012 account...
11:38:10 <lmat> david: I think Loan:Jerseys (if it's a liability account) is a bad idea because the organization never took out a loan of any kind. You could argue that members took out loans, but those are asset accounts, not liabilities.
11:39:19 <lmat> david: Technically, it's possible to have an expenses:Jerseys used to buy the jerseys. And when they are purchased, just rebate the expense account? This way, no income account is generated (since no income is generated), and the expense isn't even really tracked (assuming everything is paid up).
11:39:49 <lmat> david: This is a bad idea in a lot of circumstances: 1) if you made money on the jerseys, 2) if you get returned jerseys, etc., 3) if you have extra jerseys to sell later or something.
11:40:58 <lmat> david: So I think the most robust way to proceed would be to use COGS, asset "pass-through" account for jerseys, etc. If you want to get creative, feel free ^_^
11:46:22 <david> thanks, lmat. i'll give it a try....
11:47:13 <david> there will be no profit. there will be no returns. there will be extras which are for new players to use, but they would be treated the same as those who bought them at the outset....
11:47:15 <david> thanks.
11:50:34 <gjanssens> david: strictly speaking the jerseys you pay on behalf of the players is an money owed to you by the players. That is not an expense but an asset.
11:51:21 <gjanssens> So again you end up with an asset be it for a somewhat different reason.
11:51:53 <gjanssens> The jerseys without print, which you keep in reserve for future players: will these future players pay for them ?
11:54:20 <gjanssens> If so the can be considered inventory (and hence an asset). If not these remaining jerseys are only an expense.
12:24:51 <lmat> david: By the way, please avoid accounts with year numbers in them ^_^ It makes it look like you'll create another next year which isn't a good idea.
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12:27:24 <david> gj: thanks for that. the extra jerseys...they may/may not be purchased by future players. they might be used by someone who only plays in one match, but if someone stays all season, they might pay for the jersey. Very hard to say, really.
12:28:50 <david> lmat: the reason i said "Jerseys 2012" is because we bought jerseys in the 2012 season, and again in the 2013 season. I've thought about having the Jerseys marked with the season, too.
12:29:16 <david> i'm struggling here with my first jersey transaction.....
12:29:43 <david> (by the way, i'm transferring 5 years of accounts) from iBank (Mac) to gnucash. Manually. That's why I've got all these questions.....
12:30:02 <lmat> david: Ahh, well, by the time you're done with this conversion, you should be rather set!
12:30:34 <lmat> david: Since the inventory may "hang around" a bit, I would recommend keeping normal records for the jerseys.
12:30:49 <david> i hope so....what are "normal" records?
12:31:00 <lmat> david: So, the first transaction is assets:current -> assets:jerseys for the amount thath you paid for the jerseys.
12:31:42 <lmat> david: What this means is that you are converting your cash into jerseys. You haven't lost any value nor gained, simply converted from US currency to jerseys.
12:32:15 <david> you mean like Savings Account (withdraw 1330) -> Assets:Jerseys (deposit 1330), yes?
12:32:33 <lmat> david: Yeah, if you used the savings account to pay for the jerseys.
12:33:04 <david> fyi, i'm in Switzerland, using CHF, but I know that part doesn't matter. although in some cases, we have both CHF and EUR transactions. ah, the joy of living on the border of France.
12:33:15 <lmat> david: heh :)
12:34:35 <david> ok, so now i have a transaction... I paid 54 for my jersey, but I also got reimbursement for a first aid kit I bought for the teams bag.....so, deposit to the savings account was 45 CHF, but it's 54 CHF (jersey) - 9 CHF (first aid kit), which I guess needs to be attributed to my Expenses:Equipment.....help!!!
12:47:52 <lmat> david: heh
12:48:22 <lmat> david: Sorry for the wait. Good that you get the drift of putting everything that is a transaction into a transaction (rather than artificially splitting it up!).
12:49:21 <lmat> david: So you'll need assets:jerseys 54CHF, expense:medical -9CHF (So this is a credit(rebate) to medical!), and assets:savings 45CHF (credit like usual)
12:49:34 <lmat> (and of course 54CHF jerseys is a debit)
12:49:40 <lmat> brb!
12:50:06 <david> is that all? i think i did that already. i thought there would be more back and forths......
12:50:09 <david> thanks!
12:50:53 <gjanssens> david: that's all. This is what gnucash uses a multi-split transaction
12:53:39 <david> how can i easily attribute this transaction to me? Is there a way to use the Income account with my name? The one that I've been using mostly/only for recording club fees?
12:54:54 <gjanssens> david: what do you mean with attribute this transaction to me ?
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12:59:53 <lmat> david: If you paid the money for this to happen (rather than taking it from the savings account), then you may need an equity account :-O ?
13:03:48 <david> i'd like a quick/easy way to see who has paid for their jerseys. When I click the Jerseys account, I only see "split transaction" but no memo or anything.....
13:05:31 <david> i put "Jersey for David" on the line in the split that with Assets:Jerseys, but when I "jump" to the jerseys account, my name is nowhere to be found....
13:07:44 <fell> lmat: like all java apps slow starting and memory sucking; wrong handling of symlinks by EGit; hard to find the right tab for prefs; but the rest is wonderful.
13:08:22 <lmat> david: Well, a couple things here, too. You can use "Transactional Ledger" (under View?) to see all the splits all the time.
13:08:30 <lmat> david: Alternatively, you can put something in the transaction description.
13:08:47 <lmat> fell: I thought prefs are pretty easy with the search function?
13:08:58 <lmat> fell: So it's quite good at finding definiton for macros, etc.?
13:09:49 <fell> It has a nice include dir in the project tree.
13:11:41 <fell> some standard defs appear as tooltip in the editor window.
13:13:10 <gjanssens> david: as lmat says you can use View->Transaction Journal in the jerseys account to view all splits for all transactions
13:13:47 <gjanssens> If that's a bit much you can also select the transaction you want to examine and the click on the Split button in the tool bar
13:13:57 <gjanssens> to only view the splits in that transaction
13:14:43 <gjanssens> From what you have explained so far, I'd use the transaction descriptions to give you the details
13:15:12 <gjanssens> For example: when you bought the jerseys: make the transaction description something like "Jerseys 2012)"
13:15:22 <david> gj: the problem is that in the Jerseys account, that info is not being shared. viewing the splits didn't work there.
13:15:55 <gjanssens> Whenever one player pays for a jersey, make the description of the payment transaction "Jersey for <name of player>"
13:16:22 <david> gj: i'm trying to record who paid for their jersey.....yeah, i thought of that, but it's kind of kludgy......
13:16:32 <gjanssens> david: that probably means your transaction doesn't have a split in the Jerseys account
13:16:47 <david> new problem. someone paid 55 CHF for their jersey.....what do i do with the extra 1.00 CHF?
13:17:08 <gjanssens> Depends on what you want to do with it in real life
13:17:16 <gjanssens> Did you refund it ?
13:17:21 <david> gj: yes, my transaction has splits..... as described above. i seem them when in the Savings Account ledger, but not in the Jersey account ledger.
13:17:36 <gjanssens> Which splits exactly ?
13:17:40 <david> but changing to Transaction Ledger did the job.
13:17:49 <gjanssens> ah ok
13:18:34 <david> she paid by bank transfer. didn't even realize she overpaid until right now...six months later.
13:19:08 <gjanssens> So then what will you do with it now 6 months later ?
13:19:42 <david> i could apply the extra 1.00 to this year's membership fees....but i think i'll just swallow it....but how, in accounting terms? new account called Income:Other Income? Profit? Tips?
13:20:02 <gjanssens> Other income IMO
13:20:09 <david> thanks.
13:20:41 <gjanssens> You can add a memo explaining how you got it, though the transactions probably show that already sufficiently
13:30:54 <lmat> david: There *is* profit!! I knew there would be!!
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13:32:16 <lmat> david: But with your new, marvelous accounting practices, you'll be able to tell her very soon that she overpaid :)
13:32:51 <david> yeah, well, accidental profit.
13:33:14 <david> i'll just apply her extra 1.00 to *my* membership fees. ;) Basta!
13:34:45 <lmat> hah!
13:35:09 <lmat> or you could apply it to someone else and tell him his secret admirer gave him a donation...
13:35:31 <david> well, there are some cute girls on the team.....
13:35:41 <david> ok, time for volleyball....thanks for all your help....
13:38:58 <warlord> david: enjoy
13:45:01 <lmat> david: Exactly, it would increase comradery...
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14:46:13 <fell> gjanssens, jralls: http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Git_Migration was last updated in 2013-05.
14:48:30 <fell> it is referenced by Git and has an alias Github_Migration
14:49:26 <gjanssens> fell: thanks for the pointer
14:49:42 <gjanssens> A quick read shows three unfinished items:
14:49:47 <gjanssens> docs nightly build
14:49:52 <gjanssens> doxygen nightly build
14:50:05 <gjanssens> locale issue in commit mails
14:50:23 <warlord> in what way are the docs/doxygen nightly builds not "finished"?
14:50:38 <gjanssens> warlord: did you update the nightly build scripts for docs and doxigen to work from git ?
14:50:42 <gjanssens> I don't recall
14:50:55 <warlord> yes, otherwise they would have failed a long time ago.
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14:51:11 <gjanssens> True, it's slowly coming back :)
14:51:51 <gjanssens> So the only item still open is the charset issue we sometimes see in the commit mails
14:52:11 <warlord> yep.
14:52:13 <gjanssens> For example when an author name has non-ascii characters in it
14:52:27 <warlord> :-/
14:52:42 <warlord> well, andi5 doesn't commit much anymore
14:53:34 <gjanssens> Anyway I don't think we need to keep the git migration page around for that.
14:53:50 <gjanssens> Can't we just delete/archive it ?
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14:57:50 <warlord> you can just remove the references to it
14:58:14 <warlord> I'm not sure how to necessarily 'archive' it, except perhaps locking it.? I'm not sure we should 'delete' it per se.
14:58:55 <fell> No, I dislike unlinked pages.
15:04:51 <fell> I can change the ref text and the header from present to perfect. But if we are short on disk space, we can delete it.
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15:07:54 <gjanssens> I doubt we're short on disk space. The media wiki faq talks about a "delete label" to mark a page as deleted.
15:08:00 <gjanssens> I have no idea what that means
15:08:27 <fell> It is still in the "repo".
15:10:14 <fell> gjanssens can you replace the respective "TBD"s by "DONE late 2013"
15:10:43 <fell> and I will change the intro and ref text to perfect form?
15:13:03 <gjanssens> fell: ok I changed the dates.
15:23:26 <gjanssens> JFYI I'm in the process of changing the e-mail id I'm using on the mailing lists. It will be geert.gnucash@kobaltwit.be from now on.
15:24:38 <fell> How do you tell github, it is the same guy? My old commits are not associated.
15:28:53 <lmat> fell: A bunch of correcting and rebasing? ^_^
15:30:47 <fell> About 10 years? I believe I have a few better things to do before. ;-)
15:31:36 <gjanssens> fell: you can provide your alternative e-mail addresses via your profile page on github
15:31:57 <gjanssens> When you are logged in: https://github.com/settings/emails
15:32:21 <fell> BTW on github I am not in the member/admin group there.
15:33:11 <gjanssens> what's your github name ?
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15:39:24 <warlord> code has plenty of disk space
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15:52:04 <fell> gjanssens: fellen; warlord is missing too in people.
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15:56:44 <gjanssens> fell: warlord is derekatkins and is part of people as far as I can see.
15:57:22 <gjanssens> I sent you an invitation to become part of the developers team.
15:58:46 <fell> https://github.com/orgs/Gnucash/people shows only cstim, gjanssens, jralls and yawaramin
15:59:55 <gjanssens> Interesting. It does not for me. There is also derekatkins and code-gnucash-org
16:00:13 <gjanssens> I don't know why you can't see warlord and code there.
16:00:40 <gjanssens> Oh, I do. Those two are private members...
16:00:54 <gjanssens> Sorry for blowing your cover warlord ;)
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16:09:41 <gjanssens> Welcome to the team fell :)
16:09:43 <fell> Yes, it seems to be the decission of the member to become exposed.
16:10:02 <gjanssens> Which is only fair
16:10:41 <fell> gjanssens from whom I see here, you could ask mikee too.
16:11:22 <gjanssens> out of curiosity: can you or do you need to be an owner for that ?
16:11:42 <fell> Which page?
16:12:47 <gjanssens> The people page you pasted a couple of lines back
16:13:07 <gjanssens> For me there's an big green invite button
16:13:39 <fell> https://github.com/orgs/Gnucash/teams has a join button with the tooltip "Only Owners can add members"
16:21:46 <fell> No green invite button.
16:22:40 <fell> The only active button is in team at member to leave.
16:25:25 <gjanssens> Right. I sent mikee an invitation as well.
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16:28:04 <fell> And warlord is still "prvate equity"? ;-)
16:28:19 <fell> private
16:31:11 <gjanssens> Apparently so...
16:57:55 <lmat> I'm trying to build master
16:58:35 <lmat> I set export BOOST_ROOT=~/sources/builds where boost is installed
16:59:03 <lmat> for instance, there exists $BOOST_ROOT/include/boost/version.hpp
16:59:04 <lmat> etc.
16:59:10 <lmat> Configure isn't happy, though.
16:59:31 <lmat> configure wants a 'stage' directory which is only in the *source* tree for boost after making it.
17:11:48 <lmat> hmm, I used --with-boost=~/sources/builds and it works now
17:11:52 <lmat> no BOOST_ROOT
17:11:54 <lmat> Got the idea here http://www.randspringer.de/boost/faq.html
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17:43:44 <warlord> gjanssens: no worries. I had no idea I was a "private member"
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