2014-08-05 GnuCash IRC logs

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04:20:49 <crocket> hi
04:21:04 <crocket> How can I count expenses in bitcoins?
04:21:38 <crocket> Since bitcoins are treated as stocks, I can't account bitcoin expenses in bitcoins.
04:21:50 <crocket> Bitcoin expenses have to be measured by a fiat currency in gnucash currently.
04:23:41 <crocket> warlord, Can you help me segregate bitcoin and fiat currency?
04:24:02 <crocket> Since bitcoin prices fluctuate, I can't really measure bitcoin expense in fiat currencies accurately.
04:24:46 <crocket> If it was possible to add bitcoin as a custom currency, it'd be good.
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11:16:43 <warlord> crocket: In the US you are not allowed to treat it like a currency. You have to translate it to at fiat currency when you purchase something. Contact ISO to get it added as an International Currency if you want to see something different. Or you could use thje
11:16:51 <warlord> XXX currency in GnuCash
11:25:34 <lmat> What does the python code do in gnucash?
11:25:40 <lmat> (is this written down already somewhere?)
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11:37:39 <warlord> lmat: I'm not a pythoner, but I believe there are two roles: 1) I know you can write a python program that operates on the gnucash modules/APIs. 2) theoretically you could write a gnucash module in python that loads into the app.
11:38:04 <lmat> oh
11:38:11 <lmat> That should help speed things up, no? ^_^
11:38:11 <warlord> Re: your C++ question on the list: yes, the gnucash modules most certainly require "extern C" for a bunch of APIs.
11:38:19 <warlord> Speed what up?
11:40:19 <lmat> warlord: Has the load-up slowness been diagnosed? Is it pretty much boiled down to loading up all the data to memory?
11:40:31 <lmat> warlord: Or is module loading a significant part of that?
11:40:54 <warlord> On what platform?
11:41:14 <warlord> On windows the slowness is verifying the data being loaded isn't corrupted.
11:41:29 <lmat> ahh, no I mean GNU/Linux
11:41:40 <warlord> I dont find it slow on Linux
11:42:19 <lmat> warlord: ahh... okay
11:42:20 <warlord> Load time is dependant on your dataset size and your open reports.
11:43:11 <lmat> warlord: It takes about 5.5 seconds to load up on my machine...
11:43:25 <warlord> Wow, that's really fast!!
11:43:35 <warlord> On windows there are reports of it taking 45-60 seconds.
11:43:57 <lmat> whereas a real time strategy game (full-screen) takes less than half a second...
11:44:17 <lmat> warlord: It's intolerably slow :)
11:44:54 <lmat> I don't have to wait on anything for that long. I run Windows 7 in a virtual machine and it restarts in nearly that amount of time :)
11:45:10 <warlord> Gnucash does? With the exact same data set?
11:45:35 <lmat> gnucash takes 5.5 seconds. with a small dataset (my mom's books for her company that are maybe 5 months?)
11:46:24 <warlord> If you think 5.5s is "intolerably slow" you .... i dont even have the words right now
11:46:51 <lmat> warlord: I gave comparisons...what do you think of the comparisons?
11:47:15 <lmat> warlord: Perhaps the response is, "Gnucash does different stuff; it just takes more time."?
11:47:57 <lmat> warlord: And it's only intolerably slow on this computer :) with 8 cores, I'm not accustomed to waiting ^_^
11:48:22 <warlord> #cores is irrelevant. Gnucash is single-threaded..
11:48:57 <warlord> patience is a virtue.. you should learn some -- epecially when complaining about 5.5s!!!
11:49:01 <warlord> That's NOTHING
11:49:18 <warlord> Again, people on windows are seeing 45-60s load time for larger datasets
11:50:10 <lmat> warlord: I think I have plenty of patience....this isn't a personal problem, so let's avoid ad hominem? ^_^
11:50:38 <lmat> warlord: If the program has been aggressively tuned already, and we're against some sort of wall, that's fine...
11:50:49 <lmat> warlord: and "patches always welcome" :) I'm just asking questions.
11:50:52 <gjanssens> lmat: is isn't
11:51:05 <gjanssens> (agressively tuned I mean)
11:51:16 <lmat> gjanssens: thanks for the clarification ^_^
11:51:17 <warlord> lmat: questons are all well and good. If you think something is broken we welcome you to fix it.
11:51:32 <gjanssens> jralls has been doing some performance analysis he can give you more details
11:51:39 <lmat> gjanssens: ahh, thanks.
11:51:53 <gjanssens> loading all guile modules at startup time does have some impact
11:51:57 <lmat> gjanssens: Maybe we can get him to put it on the devel list?
11:52:07 <lmat> gjanssens: The guile modules are for reporting, right ?
11:52:16 <gjanssens> And the long term roadmap is to reduce guile usage to the reporting system only
11:52:48 <lmat> ahh, okay
11:53:02 <lmat> gjanssens: The reports are HTML documents, right?
11:53:07 <warlord> guile is used primarily for reporting and QIF Import.
11:53:09 <gjanssens> The guile api to interact with the gnucash engine will probably stay around for some time, but writing modules in guile itself will eventually be discouraged
11:53:17 <lmat> warlord: oh, okay..
11:53:22 <gjanssens> guile is all over the place currently
11:53:27 <lmat> gjanssens: ahh
11:53:35 <gjanssens> the whole option system is written in guile
11:53:38 <warlord> lmat: the reporting system uses guile to create an HTML document that gets displayed with webkt
11:53:50 <lmat> Is it desireable to have interactive reports?
11:53:53 <warlord> the option system is a mix of guile and C, but yeah, it's there too
11:53:55 <gjanssens> altering transactions does round trips to guile
11:53:58 <warlord> lmat: yes
11:54:00 <gjanssens> and s on
11:54:00 <lmat> For instance, resize dynamically, etc.?
11:54:03 <lmat> How hard is this in HTML?
11:54:22 <lmat> gjanssens: round trips to guile to alter a transaction!? whoa
11:54:41 <warlord> Resize as in... change the window width? That's a display thing. What do you mean?
11:54:42 <gjanssens> Yep, got bitten by this a couple of months back...
11:54:59 <warlord> gjanssens: where is that?? (other than the event callback?)
11:54:59 <lmat> warlord: I mean change the width of the graphs for instance
11:55:15 <gjanssens> lmat: That's a javascript thing
11:55:26 <gjanssens> Er, let me correct that
11:55:27 <warlord> lmat: AH, graphs.. I beleve we're currently using jplot, or jqplot, or something -- so it should be doable)
11:55:45 <lmat> jplot is java library or javascript library?
11:55:56 <warlord> javascript
11:56:02 <gjanssens> Currently the graph widths are set via options, which are read in guile code and added to the html file
11:56:27 <gjanssens> There's no dynamic resizing currently
11:56:42 <gjanssens> It's jqplot
11:56:44 <lmat> gjanssens: Right, I'm wondering how this could be done.
11:57:07 <warlord> lmat: you would need to fix jqplot, most likely
11:57:12 <gjanssens> First step would be to figure out how to tie window width to webkit's graphing area
11:57:40 <lmat> awesome
11:57:48 <lmat> Lots of work to do...I'll get cracking
11:57:54 <lmat> Also, do we want to track inventory?
11:58:10 <gjanssens> If you can provide patches... sure
11:58:15 <gjanssens> Many people ask for it
11:58:19 <warlord> lmat: if you can implement it, great!
11:58:26 <lmat> Also, tell me about our module system?
11:58:27 <lmat> Why modules?
11:58:28 <warlord> == gjanssens .. lots of people ask for it
11:58:37 <lmat> I understand that some are not required.
11:58:47 <lmat> But some are...why are they separate modules?
11:58:48 <warlord> Well, back in the day..... gnucash was a guile application.
11:58:57 <lmat> OOHH!!
11:59:01 <lmat> warlord: Very helpful information !!!
11:59:29 <lmat> Like, would it be desireable to incorporate the 'engine' module into the application ?
12:00:09 <gjanssens> lmat: I'd rather see the engine transformed into some kind of library
12:00:16 <gjanssens> with a well defined api
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12:00:35 <gjanssens> That would allow other use cases that are pretty difficult to do now
12:00:35 <lmat> gjanssens: It being a module currently, does it have a well-defined API?
12:00:56 <gjanssens> lmat: good question
12:01:16 <gjanssens> In theory yes, but it's pretty much ad-hoc because there are no external consumers
12:01:32 <lmat> ah, right
12:01:40 <gjanssens> The gnucash application is currently the only application that uses the engine api
12:01:46 <lmat> right
12:01:50 <gjanssens> So it's easy to change both at the same time
12:02:15 <gjanssens> But I hear several people dream about webservices based on gnucash
12:02:30 <gjanssens> Just as an example
12:02:40 <lmat> I only have 205 more e-mails to read before I'm caught up on the gnucash lists... :S
12:02:54 <gjanssens> That would be slightly easier if we could provide libgnucash independently of gnucash-the-application
12:03:00 <lmat> gjanssens: I've read a few items about that: trying to serve up gnucash
12:03:13 <lmat> This amounts to putting a different front-end on gnucash.
12:03:14 <gjanssens> Obviously just offering a library wouldn't be sufficient
12:03:18 <lmat> I would love to see a ncurses offering ^_^
12:03:46 <gjanssens> It would also require transactional database access versus the current "load everything in memory"
12:03:53 <gjanssens> But that's on the roadmap as well
12:04:02 <gjanssens> ncurses... why not :)
12:04:13 <gjanssens> Or a port to android/ios...
12:04:16 <warlord> lmat: there was an attempt at one point, but entering transactions was limited (or very hard). The other issue is that GnuCash does not have a good MVC model, so lots of the business logic is tied in the GUI
12:04:31 <gjanssens> All that needs cleaning up
12:04:36 <lmat> gjanssens: yup! smart phone support sounds good, too.
12:04:45 <gjanssens> lmat: where do you want to start ? ^_^
12:04:48 <lmat> warlord: ahh
12:04:55 <lmat> gjanssens: You saw my c++ e-mail on devel list? ^_^
12:05:12 <gjanssens> lmat: when ?
12:05:15 <lmat> gjanssens: today.
12:05:18 <lmat> gjanssens: warlord got it
12:05:31 <lmat> gjanssens: oh, I'm Aaron :-)
12:05:46 <gjanssens> lmat: ah, it just got in...
12:05:50 * gjanssens is reading
12:06:07 <lmat> business checks from gnucash...cool
12:08:44 <gjanssens> lmat: nice work
12:08:53 <lmat> thank you!
12:08:54 <gjanssens> Unfortunately I'm not the guy to ask c++ questions
12:09:08 <warlord> I'm sure jralls will take a look.
12:09:12 <gjanssens> My last C++ work was back in the year 2000
12:09:38 <gjanssens> IIUC modern C++ is something totally different so I have to start learning again
12:10:10 <gjanssens> I count on other contributors with (modern) c++ experience to give me good examples in code ^_^
12:10:27 <lmat> gjanssens: Yes, c++ has changed since 2000 ^_^
12:10:34 <gjanssens> warlord: by the way congrats with the newborn !
12:10:48 <gjanssens> I hadn't had time to say that yet :)
12:11:06 <gjanssens> How is your little family doing ?
12:11:28 <gjanssens> I presume lots of sleepless nights...
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12:15:40 <warlord> Thank you. We're doing well. Baby is great! Our daughter is still slowly warming up to the baby, but still isn't very happy.
12:17:35 <lmat> How old is your daughter? I take it about 2 based on her response?
12:17:37 <gjanssens> Heh, yes she has to "compete" for attention now...
12:20:38 <warlord> Yep, just turned 2 almost 2 weeks ago. (They are 2 years, 6 days, and 19 hours apart)
12:21:48 <lmat> My girl turned 3 when our son was born. She didn't seem to take much notice, but pretty quickly decided she wanted to be the mother...
12:22:45 <warlord> Yeah, I think by 3 they have a much better understanding of whats going on.
12:23:10 <warlord> Every day we try to get a little interaction between them. But she still cries in a fit whenever he fusses.
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12:24:16 <warlord> gjanssens: as for sleep.. sometimes good, sometimes bad. Last night he was up from 3-6am.. the night before he slept great.
12:25:38 <lmat> eek, I always hate those long night episodes! I never minded the baby crying... just go get him, give to mother, she feeds him, go put him back to bed.
12:25:48 <lmat> But when he won't go back to sleepp, what then!?
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12:26:28 <warlord> Right.
12:26:41 <warlord> I sat with him for a while. I honestly dont know how long
12:26:57 <warlord> He's only 6 days old. It'll get better
12:27:23 <lmat> yup yup
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