2014-08-02 GnuCash IRC logs

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07:12:59 <lmat> @op
07:12:59 <gncbot> lmat: Error: You don't have the #gnucash,op capability. If you think that you should have this capability, be sure that you are identified before trying again. The 'whoami' command can tell you if you're identified.
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07:50:28 <warlord> still tilting at windmills, lmat
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09:26:39 <elisa> hi
09:26:45 <elisa> Does gnucash support bitcoin and namecoin?
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09:46:20 <lmat> This looks like a terrible bug...
09:46:27 <lmat> nm
09:46:30 <lmat> misread
09:46:45 <lmat> thought there was a int * val; ... g_free (val); :-o
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10:13:25 <warlord> elisa: It supports it the same way it supports every other commodity out there.
10:13:37 <elisa> warlord, ???
10:13:45 <elisa> warlord, Does gnucash support custom currencies?
10:14:42 <warlord> elisa: according to the IRS, Bitcoin isn't a currency.
10:14:58 <warlord> But yes, GnuCash does support custom commodities.
10:15:13 <elisa> warlord, I am not subject to USA laws.
10:15:17 <warlord> We recommend, however, that you record mili-BTC instead of BTC due to the very small numbers
10:15:33 <elisa> I'd rather record satoshis.
10:15:40 <elisa> Satoshis are accurate.
10:16:16 <elisa> warlord, What is a commodity?
10:16:22 <warlord> Any tradable good
10:16:42 <elisa> warlord, I don't have enough information about finance.
10:16:45 <warlord> (generally stocks, bond, mututal funds, etc)
10:17:05 <warlord> elisa: I suggest you take the time to read the GnuCash Tutorial and Concepts Guide.
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10:17:24 <elisa> OH my
10:17:50 <elisa> In kmymoney, to record stocks, I have to know how much percentage of a company I own.
10:18:01 <elisa> In case of bitcoin, I can't know how much percentage of all bitcoins I own.
10:18:24 <warlord> this isn't kmm.
10:18:38 <warlord> you just need to know the quantity you own, and the price you paid for them
10:18:51 <warlord> e.g., you bought 1 BTC at $500
10:19:22 <warlord> (although per our recommendation, it would be 1000mBTC @ $0.50 each)
10:20:30 <elisa> mBTC
10:20:33 <elisa> satoshi
10:20:36 <elisa> uBTC
10:20:39 <elisa> microBTC
10:21:00 <warlord> Sure..
10:21:14 <elisa> warlord, Can I convert a kmymoney file to a gnucash one?
10:21:16 <warlord> It's just that with the exchange rates, recording BTCs don't work well.
10:21:27 <warlord> elisa: no clue. Can you export to QIF?
10:21:38 * warlord has never looked at kmm
10:22:46 <elisa> warlord, kmymoney can export as QIF.
10:22:53 <elisa> QIF and CSV
10:27:12 <warlord> qif would be better
10:30:37 <elisa> warlord, I've exported each account as a qif.
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10:34:23 <elisa> warlord, Can gnucash handle 8 decimal places?
10:34:25 <elisa> I need to deal with satoshis.
10:36:54 <warlord> no
10:37:03 <warlord> well, it can internally.. .but the UI limits to 6
10:37:30 <warlord> which is why we recommend div-1000 to bring those 8 decimal places down to 5
10:38:09 <elisa> Do you mean mBTC?
10:38:22 <elisa> warlord, Why don't you patch your UI?
10:42:17 <elisa> WEll
10:42:23 <elisa> I'm using gnucash.
10:42:31 <elisa> Its UI is somewhat confusing.
10:43:34 <elisa> I just imported qif.
10:43:48 <elisa> Categories have been imported as accounts.
10:43:53 <elisa> That's frustrating.
10:44:40 <warlord> gnucash is true double entry.. everything is an account.
10:45:41 <warlord> If you mean "everything is at the top level", I recommend you look at the template hierarchies.
10:45:53 <warlord> (sorry -- gotta run -- daughter needs attention)
10:46:04 <elisa> errand
10:46:23 <elisa> warlord, I'm not used to true double entry accounting.
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12:26:41 <elisa> warlord, Are you there?
12:26:47 <elisa> warlord, How do I move transactions to other accounts?
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13:04:08 <elisa> Damn
13:04:15 <elisa> How do I create a private stock account?
13:09:37 <jralls> Just like any other stock account.
13:11:56 <elisa> jralls, There can never be a private stock account in gnucash.
13:12:04 <elisa> However, I can create an equity account.
13:12:10 <jralls> Why do you say that?
13:12:20 <elisa> Every stock account needs to be tied to a public stock market.
13:12:28 <elisa> NASDAQ or whatever.
13:12:30 <jralls> Why do you think that?
13:12:41 <elisa> jralls, The UI makes me think so.
13:13:02 <elisa> jralls, The manual says "Common stock
13:13:02 <elisa> It is a security that represents a certain fractional ownership of a company. This is what you buy when you “buy stock” in a company on the open market. This is also sometimes known as capital stock."
13:13:16 <elisa> on the open market
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13:14:29 <jralls> Elisa, I run $10M in family assets and have used GnuCash to handle my ownership of non-traded companies and funds. I'm also a core developer. Don't try to lecture me.
13:16:05 <elisa> jralls, Your family is quite rich!
13:16:21 <elisa> Well, depends on the family size, though.
13:16:31 <elisa> If your family is 4 people, then, you're rich.
13:16:59 <jralls> First of all, the UI you're referring to is the securities editor (formerly called the commodities editor). It's pre-populated with some US exchanges as categories, but those categories exist only to make it easier to find the securities in the security picker. You're free to create your own categories.
13:17:17 <elisa> jralls, Thanks
13:17:23 <elisa> jralls, Just an off-topic question.
13:17:37 <elisa> jralls, Can you live without a job for 4-5 decades?
13:17:46 <elisa> just curious
13:17:59 <jralls> Sure as heck hope so.
13:18:03 <elisa> wow
13:18:21 <jralls> Assuming I live that long at all, of course.
13:18:40 <elisa> Damn good
13:18:56 <elisa> jralls, I wish you contribute to the society with a lot of free time.
13:19:53 <elisa> It's difficult for wage slaves to make anything good.
13:19:57 <jralls> 1 day a week Habitat for Humanity, the other 6 maintaining open source software like GnuCash. Is that enough?
13:20:00 <elisa> They have no time.
13:20:13 <elisa> jralls, well... maybe
13:20:25 <elisa> jralls, I guess you could have much more impact, though.
13:20:32 <jralls> How?
13:20:58 <elisa> There are other projects with more potential impacts than GnuCash.
13:21:01 <elisa> like bitcoin
13:21:32 <jralls> Bitcoin is the province of criminals. I don't see how that would benefit society.
13:21:39 <elisa> huh
13:21:41 <elisa> Bitcoin is not.
13:21:58 <elisa> Bitcoin is not very anonymous.
13:22:14 <jralls> So?
13:22:25 <elisa> Plus, lots of crimes are done in fiat currencies.
13:22:33 <elisa> It's unfair to blame bitcoin for crimes.
13:22:41 <jralls> Again, so?
13:22:54 <elisa> Bitcoin is not the province of criminals.
13:22:58 <jralls> What *legal* purpose does Bitcoin serve?
13:23:08 <elisa> legal?
13:23:17 <jralls> After Mt. Gox and Silk Road, I'd say you have a tough case to make.
13:23:43 <elisa> The same thing can also apply to fiat currencies.
13:24:05 <elisa> Governments pay terrorists using traditional financial systems.
13:24:19 <elisa> including cash and banking.
13:24:30 <madduck> jralls: you seem to need a bit of catchup on the Bitcoin ecosystem tbh
13:25:16 <madduck> anyway, this is #gnucash, and currently, gnucash cannot handle Bitcoin or cryptocurrencies, and if only because it won't let you introduce currencies (or maybe I just failed)
13:25:25 <madduck> so there's work to be done, because Bitcoin is here to stay
13:25:39 <madduck> but let's focus on GnuCash here, shall we? There is #bitcoin…
13:26:17 <elisa> ok
13:26:24 <elisa> madduck, Can I add a custom currency?
13:27:01 <jralls> You can't create custom currencies, only custom securities.
13:27:11 <madduck> elisa: I have not managed to do so. I now use ledger-cli and despite its shortcomings, it's quite awesome for Bitcoin and stuff, especially if you deal a lot with altcoins
13:27:25 <jralls> For US-resident users, that's the correct way to handle Bitcoin anyway.
13:28:00 <madduck> if you say so.
13:28:54 <jralls> There's also a problem with the maximum denominator, which is 10^6 in GnuCash; Bitcoin needs 10^8, so you have to set up milli-BTC. I'm working on fixing that for GC2.8.
13:29:14 <jralls> The IRS said so, in June.
13:30:16 <elisa> huh
13:30:33 <elisa> ledger-cli is so inconvenient.
13:30:46 <elisa> Report in CLI? oh no
13:30:51 <jralls> http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-14-21.pdf
13:32:59 <elisa> I'm not a USA citizen.
13:36:03 <elisa> I can't stretch the balance tab in GnuCash.
13:36:05 <elisa> I can't see balances.
13:36:14 <elisa> They are truncated.
13:39:44 <jralls> Three's a trick to widening the Balance column, but I can't remember what it is.
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13:40:30 <elisa> JEsus
13:40:45 <elisa> I can't transfer funds from bank to equity accounts.
13:40:50 <elisa> GnuCash
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13:43:38 <elisa> jralls, If I buy equity from a bank account, both the bank account and the equity account see increase in the quantity.
13:43:47 <elisa> What's wrong here?
13:44:28 <elisa> Should I convert the equity account to a stock account?
13:44:51 <jralls> Elisa: You're using equity incorrectly. Equity represents an accumulation of profits or losses on a businesses books.
13:45:28 <elisa> jralls, The manual says "Equities are investments in which the investor becomes part (or whole) owner in something. This includes common stock in a company, or real estate."
13:46:07 <jralls> So yes, convert it to a stock account. You'll probably find it useful to put it in a hierarchy of type Assets.
13:46:09 <elisa> hmm
13:46:15 <elisa> Oh man
13:47:02 <elisa> jralls, Do you know what type of security I can choose?
13:47:09 <jralls> That's *Equities*, not *Equity*. *Equities* are assets. *Equity* is part of the Accounting equation.
13:47:12 <elisa> I can't write a custom value in the type.
13:47:34 <elisa> Should it be "FUND"?
13:48:13 <elisa> I own stocks in a private company.
13:48:23 <elisa> I don't know how to represent them in GnuCash.
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13:48:44 <jralls> There's no operational difference between types "FUND" and "STOCK", so use whichever makes sense to you. I generally prefer "STOCK".
13:49:00 <jralls> OK, we're back to your private stocks.
13:49:30 <jralls> Have you already created the security?
13:50:08 <elisa> Oh
13:50:20 <elisa> jralls, I didn't know I could click "New" button.
13:50:24 <elisa> I can create a new kind of security.
13:50:46 <jralls> Right, and in the security editor you can create a new type.
13:51:16 <jralls> Since it isn't publicly traded, the only thing you shouldn't do is select "get prices online".
13:51:44 <jralls> That's the only interaction between GnuCash and the outside world for securities.
13:57:23 <elisa> jralls, Can I write customized online interaction modules?
13:57:29 <elisa> in python or lua
13:57:52 <elisa> I could even write modules that calculate bitcoin exchange rate
13:58:01 <jralls> Yes, but no. It's Perl, and the module is Finance::Quote.
13:58:09 <jralls> Bitcoin is already in there.
13:58:38 <elisa> ok
13:58:45 <jralls> Though I'm not sure if it percolates through to the GnuCash GUI.
13:59:28 <elisa> jralls, Should I treat bitcoins as stocks?
14:00:06 <elisa> Damn
14:00:11 <elisa> Fraction traded???
14:00:18 <elisa> I can't specify fractions for bitcoin
14:02:08 <jralls> Yes, treat Bitcoin as stock. I mentioned the fraction problem earlier, but I don't know if it will affect retrieving prices.
14:02:51 <jralls> Or rather, I don't know *how* it will affect retrieving prices. I'm pretty sure it will have an effect, probably not good.
14:05:51 <elisa> The total number of bitcoins is 21 million.
14:05:55 <elisa> But people lose bitcoins.
14:06:46 <jralls> That's the total *eventual* number, once they've all been created. There aren't that many yet.
14:13:44 <elisa> jralls, I know
14:13:54 <elisa> jralls, I don't know another way to represent bitcoins in GnuCash.
14:14:06 <elisa> GnuCash should add support for custom currencies.
14:14:53 <jralls> This has been discussed at great length. We don't at present have any plans to do so.
14:15:22 <elisa> jralls, You're going to miss most cryptocurrencies without it.
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14:16:59 <jralls> Until the rest of the world catches up with the US and issues regulations for accounting for crypto-currencies, we don't know what to do except to do it the US way. That's to treat crypto-currencies as stocks.
14:17:35 <elisa> jralls, Is GnuCash for USA citizens?
14:18:21 <madduck> jralls: I certainly don't hope that the rest of the world "catches up with the US" in that regard.
14:18:26 <jralls> Sure. Also citizens of anywhere else.
14:18:49 <dawg> Does GnuCash have it's own HBCI protocol implemented or is it interacting with the aqbanking module?
14:19:30 <jralls> madduck: I think you mean that you hope the rest of the world issues regulations which allow crypto-currencies to be treated the same as any other foreign currency.
14:19:51 <jralls> dawg: GnuCash uses AQBanking for HBCI.
14:20:53 <elisa> oh I get it.
14:21:02 <elisa> The fraction is just about decimal places.
14:21:48 <dawg> Thanks for the answer jralls. Does GnuCash support Sm@rt-Tan (flicker-code)?
14:21:50 <jralls> madduck: Until there are regulations about accounting for crypto currencies in a particular country, accountants have to guess and hope that they don't get in trouble.
14:22:28 <jralls> dawg: Never heard of it. If it's not in AQBanking, then no.
14:24:10 <jralls> elisa: Right, now that stock prices and all currencies are decimalized. Until a few years ago some stocks were traded in eighths.
14:24:12 <warlord> elisa: to expand the balance column you need to grab it by the right-side handle, drag it *off the window* to make it larger than the window. A scrollbar will appear. Then you can make the description column smaller to remove the scrollbr.
14:25:04 <jralls> warlord: I wasn't able to make that work just now in 2.6.3 on OSX, but that might be a gtk-quartz issue.
14:25:38 <warlord> I think the real solution it to stop making the desc column auto-fill.
14:26:30 <warlord> elisa: sorry for disappearing. We just had a baby on Wednesday and just came home yesterday with him. BUt my daughter isn't quite amused by it so needs special attention.
14:26:35 <elisa> warlord, That doesn't work.
14:27:14 <warlord> What OS/Distro do you use, elisa ?
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14:29:28 <elisa> warlord, ubuntu 14.04
14:29:33 <elisa> huh
14:29:39 <elisa> What is R column in a stock account?
14:29:54 <warlord> The same as every other account: Reconciled Status
14:32:37 <dawg> Is here anyone very familiar with the HBCI-Protocol. I'd like to understand how to sync with FinTS 3.0 Bank Server and query the current balance. AqBanking is surely good to go, but I'd prefer some examples rather than reading the full source-code by myself. Maybe anyone knows more?
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14:33:48 <warlord> dawg: you could ask Martin, but you are better off askng him in emal.
14:38:05 <warlord> elisa: not sure why that technique doesnt work. t has certanly worked for me on fedora, but im also still usng 2.4.x
14:38:31 <elisa> huh
14:38:45 <elisa> Does gnucash recognize mBTC and adjust exchange rate accordingly?
14:39:03 <elisa> If GnuCash didn't recognize mBTC, it wouldn't have multiplied 1000.
14:39:12 <elisa> by 1000
14:39:16 <jralls> No.
14:40:01 <elisa> BTC/KRW = 1000/629899
14:40:06 <jralls> Sorry, perhaps not clear: No, GC doesn't recognize mBTC as a fraction of BTC.
14:40:07 <elisa> oops
14:40:09 <elisa> mBTC/KRW = 1000/629899
14:40:23 <elisa> ok
14:40:59 <elisa> GnuCash somehow fetches bitcoin exchange rate.
14:40:59 <jralls> That's what I meant when I said that it would have an unfortunate affect on online pricing.
14:41:06 <dawg> OK, one more question. I have installed GnuCash, each time I try to connect to my online account it says "aquiring lock" and takes a lot of time, then it fails
14:41:42 <jralls> dawg: Somebody else reported that problem on the mailing list the other day.
14:42:03 <jralls> I don't think that there was a satisfactory answer.
14:43:25 <dawg> OK, i iwll need to fix that somehow then myself
14:44:16 <elisa> hmm....
14:44:22 <elisa> It seems I won't get accurate price.
14:44:44 <elisa> Does GnuCash get new bitcoin prices and update the ledger accordingly?
14:47:12 <warlord> it can get a new price when you tell it to. It will not "update the ledger" per se, but if you have enabled the "Total(CUR)" column in the CoA then that will show the current value
14:47:31 <elisa> warlord, How do I tell it?
14:47:37 <warlord> how do you tell what?
14:48:14 <warlord> oh, sorry, missed the "it"
14:48:27 <warlord> go to Actions -> Price Editor -> Get Online prices
14:49:09 <warlord> Er, sorry. Tools -> Price Edit
14:49:10 <warlord> or
14:49:14 <elisa> I'm seeing check & repair account
14:49:23 * warlord can't type -- I blame it on lack-of-sleep for the last 4 days
14:49:52 <elisa> I see "Get Quotes" button.
14:49:54 <elisa> Is that it?
14:50:02 <warlord> Yes, that will get all your online prices
14:51:54 <elisa> warlord, That doesn't seem to do it.
14:52:17 <warlord> then you didn't configure a price source for your security
14:54:28 <elisa> warlord, How do I configure bitcoin online quote source?
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14:57:59 * warlord doesn't know
14:58:11 <warlord> Probably choosing yahoo
15:00:50 <elisa> I'm not sure how yahoo can convert BTC to KRW.
15:01:32 <elisa> Yahoo doesn't have BTC
15:04:11 <warlord> I have no idea which quote sources have it, if any
15:05:22 <jralls> If you select "Unknown" in the type of quote source there are several sources starting with "bitcoin", but none of them are for KRW.
15:06:31 <elisa> jralls, I don't have bitcoin sources.
15:07:11 <jralls> The you probably need to update Finance::Quote. Run `sudo gnc-fq-update`
15:09:32 <elisa> jralls, I don't have gnc-fq-update
15:09:40 <jralls> However, I just tested bitcoin_usd with gnc-fq-dump and BTC returns a quote with no date, so GnuCash won't accept it anyway.
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15:10:14 <elisa> jralls, Do you know how to install F::Q?
15:10:36 <jralls> Yes. Do what I just said.
15:10:54 <elisa> jralls, gnc-hq-update doesn't exist on my PC.
15:11:06 <elisa> gnc-fq-update
15:12:02 <jralls> OK. Run `sudo cpan`, then at the prompt "install Finance::Quote". Accept all defaults.
15:13:02 <elisa> This is bad.
15:13:31 <jralls> But it won't get usable bitcoin quotes for you anyway.
15:13:34 <jralls> What's bad?
15:13:45 <elisa> I didn't have to install it manually.
15:13:52 <warlord> jralls: with elisa everything not understood is "bad"
15:14:05 <warlord> elisa: no, you could just install the Ubuntu package
15:16:02 <jralls> I gotta go.
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15:17:56 <elisa> man
15:18:13 <elisa> Is there any bitcoin_krw?
15:19:14 <elisa> warlord, Do you find any bitcoin_krw?
15:19:22 <warlord> elisa: this is the wrong place to ask that question. (and no, I dont know where the right place to ask it is.. Probablyu #bitcoin)
15:32:50 <elisa> ok
15:32:54 <elisa> Finance::Quote
15:33:16 <elisa> warlord, Anyway, gnucash looks more flexible than kmymoney.
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16:46:11 <Bob22> How do you create a 3 to a page custom print format
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17:32:40 <warlord> Bob22: um, gnucash AFAIK doesnt have that
17:33:48 <Rubidium> hi, when I open a budget and keep the window open when closing and starting gnucash again, the budget "table" becomes wider and seeing the complete total column requires scrolling. The first time opening it did not require scrolling, so there should be enough space
17:34:22 <Rubidium> as an example: http://rbijker.net/dump/budget_problem.png (using gnucash 2.6.3 rev 4e4a032+ from Debian)
17:35:34 <Rubidium> when I make the account column narrower everything except the totals column comes to the left, so I end up with a very wide totals column that still requires scrolling to the right to view properly
17:36:15 <Rubidium> is this a known (and maybe already solved) issue? I couldn't find something obviously similar to this issue in the bug tracker, but I might have overlooked something
17:37:11 <mikee> Try double clicking the column headers to auto-resize it.
17:40:43 <Rubidium> the only location that has effect for me is the "border" right of the "Account name" and that resizes the account name to get the initial width. It doesn't solve the problem with the total being half of the "viewport" of the scroll panee
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17:43:46 <Rubidium__> sorry for leaving... but someone was shutting down my server for maintenance, although that was planned for yesterday
17:46:58 <Rubidium__> I can get the total width right, so it doesn't show the scrollbars but that requires me to make the account name column narrower, reduce the window size, quit gnucash, start gnucash and return to the original window size (though doing that's a nuisance)
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17:55:14 <Rubidium__> the effect also gets succesively worse the more quits and starts have happened. Might the column width be saved and there's an off-by-a-few in the saving/restoration of it?
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18:40:34 <Shariff> Hi there
18:41:00 <Shariff> Why can't I assign "equity" as an account type? It's not on the list.
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20:37:38 <warlord> Rubidium__: what version of gnucash?
20:37:46 <warlord> (sounds like a bug!)
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21:19:14 <crocket> hi
21:19:18 <crocket> warlord, you there?
21:27:14 <crocket> I want to automatically update bitcoin price.
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21:54:10 <Bob22> I have been trying to create a custom format for printing checks, 3 to a page. But when I click on the Custom option it only allows me to print a single check per page. How do I get the custom format to do 3 checks per page?
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22:31:54 <crocket> anyone?
22:32:22 <crocket> gnucash doesn't update fiat currency exchange rates when I click "Get Quotes" in price editor.
23:08:35 <crocket> ok
23:08:38 <crocket> It does.
23:24:24 <crocket> When will gnucash be able to deal with 8 decimal places?
23:29:24 <Rubidium__> warlord: the version I am using is gnucash 2.6.3 rev 4e4a032+ on Debian unstable
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