2014-04-10 GnuCash IRC logs

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10:32:54 <fell> boilthreetimes: Don't forget to mark income as placeholder again.
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11:41:58 <f355> Hi I have an issue with ver 2.6.3 of gnucash where it is shown the horizontal blue bar across one of my registers because of a transaction listed with a future date. However the date has passed and the blue bar is still in the register. I had the same problem in 2.6.2. this only happens in one registers, the other accounts seem fine.
11:42:12 <f355> Any ideas?
11:45:01 <warlord> f355: when you close and reopen the register and the line doesn't move?
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11:51:30 <f355> no it does not move at all
11:53:03 <f355> cutoff date of 08.04.2014 at the bar
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11:54:18 <warlord> August 4th is a ways away
11:55:15 <f355> actually I'm in Europe so date is reversed ;)
11:55:35 <f355> am I have used it the same way for the last 2 years
11:56:24 <warlord> :-P
11:56:50 <f355> sorry lol
11:56:57 <f355> forgot to mention that part ;)
11:57:02 <warlord> Can you show a screen shot of the register with the blue line? The line *should* move when you close and reopen the register.
11:57:17 <f355> sure
11:58:57 <f355> http://imagebin.org/304915
11:59:04 <f355> is the screen shot
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12:03:00 <warlord> Hmm.. That does appear to be a day off.. assuming you just opened the regiister just now.
12:03:18 <warlord> And assuming your computer thinks the date is April 10
12:03:42 <f355> yes correct in the standard 4/10/2014 format
12:04:19 <warlord> Just for kicks -- if you quit gnucash and restart it, does the problem go away?
12:04:43 <f355> not so far it hasn't. Let me just kill it again and restart
12:06:32 <f355> still there!
12:07:05 <warlord> WEIRD. Well, can you file a bug report about this?
12:07:44 <f355> yes let me figure out how to do that
12:08:12 <warlord> read http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Bugzillsa
12:08:17 <warlord> er, http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Bugzilla
12:12:14 <f355> ok set up an account. Should it be filed under applications?
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12:14:13 <f355> ok found where to file
12:16:15 <gour> hello, recently when asked on ml about using GC for quotes/invoices, it was mentioned that due to the fact that not all quotes are ended as invoices, the approach of using unposted invoices makes "problem with this approach is that invoices cannot be deleted, and have to be 'zeroed' and recycled. Not all quotations result in an invoice, and soon you end up with a problem managing unposted invoices." Otoh, I really want to get rid of
12:16:16 <gour> current PHP/MySQL web app doing that and considering that I anyway track company's fiancnes in GC, I wonder if you can shed some more light about that problem of 'tracking unposted invoices' ?
12:21:35 <f355> Thanks warlord, report filed
12:21:43 <warlord> thanks, f355
12:22:21 <warlord> gour: it's easy to find unposted invoices.
12:26:44 <gour> warlord: does collecting lot of them provide any problem for GC? i also wonder about counters...iow. if quote does not realize as final invoice, my invoice number still has to be sequential, without holes assigned to numbers of unposted quotes. how to handle it?
12:27:28 <warlord> No, collecting a lot shouldn't be a problem. You can always search for "non-posted invoices with dates after X" to limit your searches.
12:28:07 <warlord> Why does your invoice number have to be sequential? (yes, *that* would be a problem because the auto-invoice-numbering happens when you *create* the invoice, not when you post it)
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12:32:00 <gour> warlord: well, it's declared by the gov. law here how the sequence of invoice number should look like...e.g. it's not allowed to have leading zeroes, but sequence should start with one and increment. the invoice number should have some other data as number of working-space etc. so it usually looks as e.g. ws1-1-1, ws1-1-2, ws1-1-3 etc.
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12:33:06 <gour> it looks as this is show-stopper :-(
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12:47:57 <warlord> gour: stupid govts
12:48:28 <warlord> Well, your other option is to keep your own invoice # count; so when you post an invoice you assign it appropriately.
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12:49:59 <warlord> (i.e., don't use GnuCash's auto-invoice numbering)
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12:50:36 * gour nods (about govts.)
12:53:57 <fell> It is an EU rule, but IIRC the invoice number have to be sequential in one *or more* number cycles.
12:55:23 <gour> what do you mean by 'number cycles'?
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13:01:27 <fell> I used thiis format: "YYYY-MM-DD-nnn". 4 cycles: Year, month, day, number_in_day
13:01:31 <gour> afaik, number cycle is 1yr here
13:02:30 <gour> fell: that's not allowed here where i've to use: workingplaceid-sellingplaceid-nnn
13:04:55 <gour> moreover, invoice to include operatorid, and date as well as time of issuing cause all the invoices (paid in cash/credit cards etc.) have to be fiscalized, iow. when issuing invoice. there should be internet avaialble to get uniqueid from the taxing office...quite complicated, i admit :-)
13:08:32 <fell> And if you use Qnnn for your quotes?
13:11:16 <warlord> Actually, that's a good idea.. If you use QYYYY-MM-DD-xxx for your quotes (there's no govt requirement for quote ids, right?) It MAY be possible to get GnuCash to auto-generate the invoice id later.. Although I don't know if it will do it or not.
13:11:29 <warlord> I.e., if you empty out the InvoiceID, I don't know if it will generate a new one for you.
13:11:42 <warlord> Easy enough to test, I guess, if you don't mind burning an invoice#
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13:15:58 <gour> right, there are no rules for quoteIDs
13:16:31 <gour> yeah, i'll try it out, maybe tomorrow when i create some testing environment
13:17:46 <gour> ...but it's a pity that GC does not have *proper* quote/invoice system which would greatly enhance its business capabilities, at least, for small companies
13:18:26 <warlord> gour: patches always welcome
13:25:07 <gour> warlord: that would mean C or Scheme?
13:25:28 <warlord> C
13:26:01 <gour> uhh...that's a bit low-level for me atm :-)
13:26:54 <gour> will GC stay with GTK in next drv. cycle?
13:27:02 <gour> *dev
13:30:46 <warlord> Yeah, it's going to remain GTK for a while.
13:37:07 <gour> gtk3?
13:53:12 <jralls> gour: Probably not gtk3. It took 6 months of hard work for Gramps to make the switch from gtk2; albeit we also migrated to Python 3 at the same time, but it's also a lot faster to write Python than it is to write C.
13:54:32 <jralls> I don't think we have the developer bandwidth to migrate GnuCash to gtk3. We've already got a lot of work planned for this dev cycle and only 3 devs committing regularly.
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14:00:21 <warlord> Moreover, I dont think Gtk3 works on Windows (let alone Mac)
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14:39:13 <jralls> It does, on both. There's a problem that there is no official Gnome prebuilt Gtk3 for win32, so we'd have to build from source.
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14:41:28 <warlord> Oh, I thought it just didnt work
14:41:34 <warlord> (and there was no maintainer)
14:46:41 <gour> jralls: i thought that gtk on windows situation has improved
14:47:29 <gour> all in all, it seems that qt is better choice for multi-platform apps these days. of course, gtk has legacy
14:48:31 <warlord> gour: if we were to start from scratch today lots of things would be different: C++ and Qt would be my recommendation (or possibly wxWidgets). But GnuCash has 15+ years of development history with tens to hundreds of man-hours of effort.
14:48:41 <warlord> (not to mention testing)
14:48:48 <jralls> It has improved, in that there's a maintainer (Tarnyko) and he's finally been given push privs on git.gnome.org, but he still doesn't have upload privs to ftp.gnome.org, or if he does he's not using it. He does have some pre-built libs on his own server.
14:48:54 <gour> sure, i understand
14:49:46 <gour> i also wonder if there is some plan to bring more devs to GC. it's such a valuable piece of software in FOSS world
14:53:06 <warlord> gour: new devs are always welcome. it's just a steep learning curve and accounting software isn't "glamourous"
14:59:52 <gour> warlord: i mean, some plan to refactor/rewrite cerrain parts to make it more accessible
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15:02:09 <warlord> more accessible to whom?
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15:17:33 <gour> warlord: to new devs
15:18:16 <warlord> Honestly I cannot think of any reasonable change that gnucash could make that would make it any more "accessible" to new devs. There are plenty of "unreasonable" changes that could be made..
15:23:20 <gour> how will GC progress then?
15:25:45 <jmd> Is it feasible to make it more modular? Such that different components could be worked on by different teams?
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15:29:24 <gour> jmd: i was thinking in that light
15:29:33 <gour> smaller pieces to swallow
15:29:39 <jralls> jmd: Certainly. That's on the plan for this cycle as "MVC", because the worst modularity break is the mixing of what should be separate model (i.e. in GnuCash "engine"), controller, and view classes in a heap of not very OO spaghetti in the "gnome* directories.
15:30:20 <gour> that sounds good
15:30:44 <jralls> The other big goal is to get rid of GObject everywhere except where it's directly used by Gtk and replace it with C++. GObject code is ugly, hard to write, and hard to understand.
15:31:44 <jmd> I'm not sure that I agree with that last statement, but I'm glad this has been considered.
15:32:02 <jralls> Sorry, *except* where it's directly used by gtk.
15:32:31 <jralls> jmd: You find GObject easy to write and to understand?
15:33:10 <jmd> All thinks have their pros and cons.
15:33:21 <jmd> s/thinks/things/
15:33:30 <jralls> And GObject's pros are?
15:34:09 <warlord> The only pro I can think of is that it's in (relatively) portable C
15:34:11 <jmd> Its portable, relatively fast.
15:34:53 <jmd> It's true that there is a lot of boiler plate involved in writing an object.
15:35:40 <jralls> Fast relative to C++? Not.
15:35:50 <jmd> Come on!
15:36:16 <jmd> Everything is
15:36:19 <jmd> except Java.
15:37:18 <jralls> Right. Have tried C++ since the C-Front days? Particularly modern (i.e. metaprogrammed) C++?
15:38:39 <jralls> Here's the deal: With C++ the OO is baked into the compiler and heavily optimized. A C compiler building GObject has no opportunity to do that because it doesn't know about OO.
15:38:57 <jmd> Yes. So?
15:39:15 <jralls> That ignores the minor detail that the GObject developers don't really understand OO either.
15:39:39 <jmd> I consider that a disadvantage of C++
15:40:12 <jralls> So in C++ access through the object hierarchy can be optimized. In GObject every polymorphic call is a new stack frame.
15:41:11 <jralls> It sounds like perhaps you don't much like OO...
15:41:48 <jmd> Well I don't think it's the magic bullet that some people do.
15:42:16 <jmd> And I don't think that OO should be thought of as the property of a language.
15:42:29 <jmd> Instead OO is a property of how one uses a language.
15:43:22 <jralls> There are no "magic bullets". One can't use OO in a language that doesn't support it. One can try, but GObject is prima facie evidence that doing so is harder than it looks.
15:43:46 <jmd> Your second sentance is incorrect.
15:44:25 <jmd> GObject certainly has some excess baggage, but I don't dislike it as much as you do.
15:44:39 <jralls> How much have you actually used it?
15:45:26 <jmd> Somewhere I have an old conference paper I published on how to use C in an OO fashion.
15:46:14 <jralls> Didn't ask that. How many GObject-based projects have you committed to?
15:46:36 <jmd> One.
15:46:43 <jralls> Which?
15:46:47 <jmd> pspp
15:47:30 <jmd> Has about 60,000 lines of GObject stuff.
15:48:06 <jmd> I won't pretend that there are no problems. But it's certainly not the worst choice we could have made.
15:48:15 <jralls> What's your savannah id?
15:48:41 <jmd> In fact, we're considering doing the opposite of what you're talking about doing.
15:49:07 * gour is curious what that would be
15:49:07 <jmd> and making our low level libraries GObject based.
15:50:03 <jmd> The main reason we haven't is that we're reluctant to impose another library on users who might have to port it to their system.
15:50:04 <jralls> Are you John Darrington?
15:50:31 <jmd> /whois jmd
15:51:03 <jmd> oh it says "unknown".
15:51:08 <jmd> Yes. That's me.
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15:52:55 <gour> jmd: did you have some blog psot series related to emacs?
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15:54:39 <jmd> not that I remember.
15:59:20 <jralls> After a brief wander around libpspp, it looks straight-up structured. No evidence of classes or polymorphism. Why would you want to rewrite it to GObject, particularly if you don't like OO?
15:59:50 <jmd> I never said that I don't like OO
16:01:40 <jralls> You didn't exactly say that you do: "jmd: Well I don't think it's the magic bullet that some people do."
16:02:11 <jmd> Well that is not the same thing is it?
16:02:25 <jmd> For the record I do like OO
16:02:36 <jmd> I also like functional programming.
16:02:54 <jmd> At the end of the day any program needs both.
16:04:32 <jralls> By "functional" do you mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_programming?
16:08:04 <jmd> bed time
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20:08:49 <cubber> I have an invoice posted in my system with a payment against it. However I just pro-bono'd the remainder of the invoice for the organization. How can I fix my books to reflect this so the remainder of the invoice is washed and the invoice is marked as payed?
20:16:07 <warlord> cubber: process a payment for the remainder, then change the account from your Bank to Expenses:WriteOffs?
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20:40:16 <cubber> warlord I guess that would work, thanks
20:43:57 <cubber> hmm that does not seem to work, I sent the payment to petty cash then went into petty cash and changed the transfer from petty cash to pro-bono under expenses. I have a negative in pro-bono now and the amount is still in petty cash
20:49:39 <warlord> cubber: that means you changed the wrong split
20:52:18 <warlord> I.e., instead of a payment from AR -> Expense you made a transfer from Expense -> Petty Cash
20:52:32 <warlord> Might've been better to change the transaction from the AR account
20:57:15 <cubber> warlord I can try again I have my file in subversion so I have an easy backup
20:58:07 <cubber> warlord: I just did process payment-> then sent the payment to petty cash. Now where do you suggest I go?
21:03:19 <warlord> cubber: open AR, then change petty cash to expense.
21:03:35 <cubber> warlord ok I got it. Went process payment -> petty cash , then just did a transfer from petty cash to pro-bono expense account
21:04:15 <warlord> cubber: that's one way to do it; not what I was suggesting.
21:04:50 <cubber> ok thanks for the help
21:06:57 <warlord> you're welcome.
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23:40:33 <mwc> I've a question about the Mac version of gnucash. I'm not familiar with the Mac -- I downloaded the 2.6.3 dmg file from gnucash.org. Is the dmg file signed in some way so that I know it's legit? Thx.
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