2013-11-24 GnuCash IRC logs
00:52:33 <snarf> what do you guys use for budgeting?
00:53:04 <snarf> i'm reading that gnucash's budgeting features are kind of weak compared to something like YNAB
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08:46:33 <johnsmal> Mikee, Mac-users: Installation of the precompiled gnucash/Intell version 2.5.7 (2.5.8 doesn't startup in OSX 10.9) enables the possibility of import plugin.
08:46:33 <gncbot> johnsmal: Sent 2 days, 2 hours, and 40 minutes ago: <mikee-afk> Yes, the imports will be in that version.
08:50:20 <johnsmal> Mikee, Mac-users: The documentation of the import plugin needs correction. A fixed field length, comma separated line format is not neccesairy
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09:14:56 <warlord> johnsmal: patches to docs always welcome
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09:44:34 <fell> gjanssens: should we add your account to http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Contributing_to_GnuCash#Money ?
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10:54:48 <gjanssens> fell: probably
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10:55:05 <gjanssens> I'll look into this one of these days
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13:07:29 <snarf> at my job, a certain amount of money is set aside pre-tax for the purpose of being used for public transporation expenses
13:07:55 <snarf> but, in order to use it, i need to spend my own money on transportation and then get reimbursed for it
13:08:22 <snarf> so, when my paycheck comes in, it'll say (for example) $100 for public transporation
13:08:41 <snarf> how should i handle this in gnucash?
13:09:05 <snarf> what account should this $100 (which will later be used for reimbursement) go in?
13:10:15 <snarf> not that i'm not actually depositing the $100 anywhere.. it'll get taken out of my salary by my company pre-tax.. i only get it later, after getting reimbursed
13:10:25 <snarf> not=note
13:13:10 <snarf> i was thinking of setting up a public transportation asset account in gnucash and transfering the money there when i get my paystub
13:15:12 <snarf> but then, when i spend real money on public transporation, i increase my reimbursables asset account by the same amount
13:16:14 <snarf> and then when i actually get reimbursed for this amount, which account should it come from?
13:16:45 <snarf> the reimbursables account or the public transport account?
13:17:28 <snarf> this is where i get confused... and think setting gnucash accounts up this way must be wrong
13:18:17 <warlord> snarf: sounds like an Asset to me..
13:18:33 <warlord> Assets:Travel Reimbursement Budget perhaps?
13:18:51 <snarf> ok
13:19:08 <snarf> but then what account do i use when i actually spend money on public transport?
13:19:37 <warlord> IANAA; you might want to talk to one to see how best to handle this.
13:19:38 <snarf> remember, i'm not actually getting reimbursed yet, so i can't take it out of the Assets:Travel Reimbursement Budget
13:19:54 <snarf> yeah.. it sounds tricky...
13:19:57 <warlord> I think you might want a double transaction
13:20:26 <warlord> When you spend the money it would be Asset:Checking -> Asset:Reimursible Travel
13:21:07 <warlord> Then when you get reimbursed it would be a double txn, from A:RT -> A:C and from A:TRB to... somewhere... Probably Income:Reimbursed Travel
13:21:26 <warlord> (I'm not sure about that second half)
13:21:30 <snarf> hmm
13:21:36 <warlord> GnuCash doesn't really account for promises.
13:21:41 <warlord> (and this is just a promise)
13:25:13 <snarf> i'm not sure it should be counted as income
13:25:30 <snarf> or maybe it should, but as non-taxable income
13:25:38 <snarf> as it's taken out pre-tax
13:25:51 <snarf> but IANAA either, as you may have guessed :)
13:29:25 <warlord> I suggest you contact one.
13:32:12 <snarf> yeah
13:32:14 <snarf> good advice
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14:00:47 <john> warlord, gjanssens: I noticed just now that the nightly windows build didn't run last night; not even a log file.
14:02:18 <warlord> I'm not in a good position to test it right now.
14:02:22 <warlord> er, check it.
14:03:06 <john> OK.
14:03:20 <warlord> @op gjanssens
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14:27:10 <johnsmal> Help. I have updated to 2.5.7 to get the import plugin for my customers. Successfully. But now I cannot import my RABO Bank MT940.swi file. Nothing happens after choice of the import file. Back to 2.4.13 the import is ok. Switching between stable and unstable is impossible; database not backwords compatible.
14:30:57 <john> What OS, and have you tried 2.5.8?
14:31:36 <john> Oh, and what backend are you using, XML or SQL?
14:38:51 <johnsmal> OS X 10.9. Version 2.5.8 doesn't startup. XML backend.
14:39:27 <warlord> johnsmal: the xml format should be compatible between 2.5 and 2.4
14:42:28 <john> I think it's possible to use a feature in 2.5 that's not supported in 2.4; ISTR I bumped up against one the other day while testing, but I didn't make a note of what it was.
14:42:51 <john> That might have been a SQL backend, though.
14:43:46 <john> Back to the RABO bank: Maybe something's missing from the bundle. I'll go have a look.
14:44:08 <john> What's the failure when trying to start 2.5.8?
14:47:17 <johnsmal> Warlord, John: so I should use the 2.5 database in a 2.4 program? When I do so I get the message that there is something wrong in the application of the file …gnucash. Sorry, my version is in locale Dutch, so I cannot quote literally.
14:48:47 <john> Gee, too bad Geert's not really here, since he's Dutch too. But go ahead and post the Dutch error, I can find it in the message catalog and get the English.
14:50:03 <john> Or you could switch your Mac to English, start up GnuCash, and copy the message, then switch the language back.
14:51:40 <johnsmal> John: after installing 2.5.8 and opening, I had to confirm that I trust the application (Apple makes some difficulties). After confirming all seems ok, but nothing happens when opening.
14:52:55 <johnsmal> John: the error is in Dutch: 'Er is een fout opgetreden bij het verwerken van het bestand file:///Users/johnsmal/Dropbox/Documents/Zwolse Beiaard Stichting/2013/Financiën/Zwolse_Beiaard_Stichting.gnucash.'
14:54:08 <john> Open /Applications/Utilities/Console, make sure the log list is visible (left-most button on the toolbar if it isn't), and look in User Diagnostic Reports to see if there's a crash report for Gnucash-bin.
15:00:04 <johnsmal> John: 24-11-13 20:09:27,527 com.apple.launchd.peruser.501[246]: ([0x0-0x9af9af].org.gnucash.Gnucash[14452]) Exited with code: 1
15:01:29 <johnsmal> John: better:
15:01:32 <johnsmal> 24-11-13 20:15:32,083 com.apple.launchd.peruser.501[246]: ([0x0-0x9dd9dd].org.gnucash.Gnucash[14584]) Exited with code: 40
15:05:19 <john> Actually neither is terribly useful, except to tell me that Gnucash isn't crashing, it's closing down because it detected a problem. The problem should be in the trace file, http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Tracefile#Trace_file_on_OSX , but it gets overwritten every time you start GC, so you'll have to try launching 2.5.8, then look in the trace file for the error.
15:16:05 <johnsmal> John
15:16:27 <johnsmal> I have the file. How do you get it?
15:17:11 <fell> johnsmal: use e.g. pastebin.com
15:17:47 <john> Or switch to the user list, or open a bug report.
15:19:42 <johnsmal> John: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rsjq07vub5eay2g/gnucash.trace
15:20:03 <john> As for the 2.4.13 problem, it may well be the gzip bug we've been talking about on the user list, so try running
15:22:54 <john> gunzip /Users/johnsmal/Dropbox/Documents/Zwolse Beiaard Stichting/2013/Financiën/Zwolse_Beiaard_Stichting.gnucash
15:23:15 <john> from terminal, then try to open the file in GnuCash.
15:26:08 <warlord> Note that you probably need to escape that space
15:26:37 <johnsmal> John: What do you mean 'from terminal'? When I trie to open the file in GnuCash I get the same message.
15:28:28 <john> I mean open /Applications/Utilities/Terminal and run that command-line on the file, then try again to open it in GC. As warlord says, the spaces in the file path should be preceded with \, like this:
15:28:52 <warlord> Or just quote the path
15:28:52 <john> gunzip /Users/johnsmal/Dropbox/Documents/Zwolse\ Beiaard\ Stichting/2013/Financiën/Zwolse_Beiaard_Stichting.gnucash
15:29:39 <john> The trace file you put on Dropbox is a 2.4 one.
15:30:45 <john> It shows the same failure that the error message does.
15:31:10 <johnsmal> John: gunzip done: unknown suffix -- ignored
15:31:10 <johnsmal> Yes, I trie to open in 2.4.
15:35:09 <john> Unknown suffix: Oh, yeah. You need to rename the file to Zwolse_Beiaard_Stichting.gnucash.gz, most easily done in Finder. Tell it that it should go ahead and change the extension when it complains. You'll then need to add the '.gz' to the filename in the gunzip command.
15:35:59 <johnsmal> John: I have a backup of the 2.5 version database. Will opening in gnncash 2.5.7 and closing without compression help?
15:36:22 <john> Yes, that might be easier.
15:36:25 <warlord> johnsmal: possibly, assuming it can be opened; you're probably better off just using gunzip.
15:36:48 <warlord> Note you can also do gzunip < inputfile > outputfile and the .gz wont matter
15:37:19 <johnsmal> I will try both, later. I have to leave. Thanx for the quick help so far.
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17:27:50 <snarf> if i make two transactions on the same day to the same account, is there a way to force a particular order on them?
17:28:50 <snarf> right now i have a deposit and a withdrawal from a certain account on the same day, where their order is reversed, so in gnucash it seems like i had a negative balance in that account before the 2nd transaction happened, but that was not the case
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17:41:32 <Simon> cut the first one and paste it in again
17:41:33 <john> Manual sorting is a new feature for 2.6. IIRC the transaction sort order is posted date, number, entry date, so you can use a value in one or both of the number fields to force a reordering, but if you're using numbers for something else, like check numbers, that's not an ideal solution.
17:42:05 <john> Simon's proposal alters the entry date, so that works too.
17:43:21 <john> snarf: BTW, do you know someone named Clint Danbury by any chance?
17:43:34 <snarf> nope
17:43:37 <snarf> sorry
17:44:12 <john> No matter. Just someone I knew a long time ago who sometimes used "snarf" as a user-name.
17:44:41 <snarf> i just randomly picked the nick a few days ago
17:47:43 <snarf> is there a way to cut and paste an entire transaction? (an entire split transaction, ideally)
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17:48:10 <snarf> i can only seem to cut and paste the contents of a single field, not entire transactions
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17:51:40 <kpreid> snarf: see the Transaction menu
17:51:53 <snarf> thanks
17:54:15 <snarf> hmm... cutting the first transaction and pasting it didn't reverse the order of the two transactions on the same day
17:54:52 <snarf> but looks ike i'm using gnucash 2.4.13
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17:55:16 <snarf> which was the newest version that was available for windows, i think...
17:56:02 <john> It's the newest *stable* version. We'll be releasing 2.6.0 at the end of December.
17:56:36 <snarf> ah
17:56:55 <snarf> will my .gnucash files be compatible with the new versions?
17:57:04 <john> Yes.
17:57:05 <snarf> cool
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18:08:03 <snarf> how do i record a payment i made through paypal, where paypal's statement shows a transfer from my bank to paypal happening on day N, while my bank's statement shows it as happening on day N+1 ?
18:10:16 <snarf> and my own initiation of the payment was made on day N-1
18:10:55 <john> However you like. ;-) I'd generally record pessimistically, with withdrawals occurring at the earliest date -- like when I write a check -- and deposits on the last possible date, usually when the bank gets around to recording it.
18:12:17 <snarf> i guess i'm still confused...
18:12:26 <snarf> i want to pay a vendor through paypal
18:13:05 <snarf> so i initiate the paypal transaction on day N-1 ... what should i put in to gnucash at this point?
18:13:34 <snarf> it's not really a transfer out of my bank account.. as from my bank statement, that doesn't happen until day N+1
18:13:47 <snarf> (or until day N, if i want to believe paypal's statement)
18:14:43 <john> Again, it's up to you. They're *your* books. *I* keep my books in the most conservative, meaning that they show the lowest balance. So I'd record the payment as soon as I sent the email or clicked the "pay" button or whatever.
18:15:07 <john> But if you'd rather, you can recognize the payment when your bank does.
18:15:13 <snarf> i see
18:17:08 <snarf> i guess it can just get confusing when i'm trying to reconcile what i have in my books with my paypal and bank statements
18:17:14 <snarf> which show all these different dates
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18:21:49 <john> As long as the money balances, I don't worry about the dates. Different accounts are going to record different dates, and there's not a whole lot one can do about it.
18:21:50 <Holster> Hello, I am planning to use GnuCash to track business expenses for tax deduction purposes. Part of my deductions include driving mileage. Is there a place to input mileage in GnuCash? Thank you for your help!
18:26:55 <john> Holster: Not exactly. You could create a "mileage" commodity and price it at your reimbursement rate. Then you'd have an asset account in that commodity. You could then enter a 100-mile trip at 0.15/mile by debiting mileage 100 miles and crediting expenses $15; when you get the check from the travel department, you'd debit your bank account $15 and credit mileage 100 mi. (Warning: I almost always get credit and debit backwards. I think you'll get the idea anyway.
18:29:08 <Holster> Yes, I'll have to look into that. Anything to make compiling tax data easier lol. I'll keep plugging away through the beginner's guide. Thanks!
18:30:17 <johnsmal> John: Alas! Both workarounds do not work. I have closed in 2.4.7 successfully the database without compression: 2.4 do not accept it. I have closed the database in 2.4.7 successfully with compression, unzipped the file: 2.4 do not accept it. In 2.4.7 I can open the same file. It looks as not backwards compatible. Still I want to keep my 100 imported customers…
18:39:15 <snarf> i am going to repost a question i had earlier, which found no satisfactory answer yet...
18:39:47 <snarf> at my job, a certain amount of money is set aside pre-tax for the purpose of being used for public transporation expenses
18:39:58 <snarf> but, in order to use it, i need to spend my own money on transportation and then get reimbursed for it
18:40:11 <snarf> so, when my paycheck comes in, it'll say (for example) $100 for public transporation
18:40:19 <snarf> how should i handle this in gnucash?
18:40:29 <snarf> what account should this $100 (which will later be used for reimbursement) go in?
18:40:40 <snarf> note that i'm not actually depositing the $100 anywhere.. it'll get taken out of my salary by my company pre-tax.. i only get it later, after getting reimbursed
18:41:21 <snarf> i was thinking of setting up a public transportation asset account in gnucash and transfering the money there when i get my paystub
18:41:28 <snarf> but then, when i spend real money on public transporation, i increase my reimbursables asset account by the same amount
18:41:39 <snarf> and then when i actually get reimbursed for this amount, which account should it come from?
18:41:49 <snarf> the reimbursables account or the public transport account?
18:42:11 <snarf> this is where i get confused... and think setting gnucash accounts up this way must be wrong
18:43:16 <john> johnsmal: Would you be willing to put your file up on dropbox or email it to me directly at jralls@ceridwen.us?
18:46:39 <john> snarf: So it's like a healthcare savings account. It's an asset, funded by your salary, that you *accrue* every pay period. I'm not going to be able to explain that here, but I think there's a section on accrual accounting the the Concept guide, and you should easily find material about it on the web or in a basic accounting text.
18:48:52 <snarf> yea, it's like a healthcare savings account
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18:59:42 <warlord> snarf: you cannot get both dates, you need to choose one. So the fact that you initiate on N-1, it gets processed on N, and hits your bank at N+1.... You have to choose 1 of those 3 dates.
19:00:11 <snarf> ok
19:00:12 <snarf> thank you
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19:06:22 <warlord> snarf: also, instead of asking the same question here over and over you might have better luck asking on the gnucash-user mailing list.
19:06:38 <snarf> thank you, i'll try that
19:19:26 <warlord> I'll be back shortly..
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20:51:18 <snarf> i found an interesting solution for the public transportation account problem i asked about earlier
20:51:53 <snarf> the solution is stated in terms of a health savings account and quicken
20:52:07 <snarf> but should be easily adaptable to gnucash
20:56:18 <snarf> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=Y1HzYFxV
20:58:01 <snarf> i'm not sure if i like this solution, though... as it involves editing existing transactions to change the account from "HSA SUBMITTABLE" to "HSA REIMBURSED"
21:02:23 <warlord> snarf: or you can do the double-transaction like I said before.
21:06:07 <snarf> your suggestion was for the account to use to transfer my income from my pastub to to be: "Assets:Travel Reimbursement Budget"
21:06:15 <snarf> then "When you spend the money it would be Asset:Checking -> Asset:Reimursible Travel"
21:06:22 <snarf> "Then when you get reimbursed it would be a double txn, from A:RT -> A:C and from A:TRB to... somewhere... Probably Income:Reimbursed Travel"
21:07:06 <snarf> you weren't sure about the 2nd half... and i'm not sure about it either
21:07:19 <snarf> and you suggested speaking to an accountant... and i'll probably do that
21:08:20 <snarf> but in the meantime, i'm just searching around for other suggestions
21:08:35 <snarf> i do appreciate your help, however.. and i'm definitely keeping your suggestion in mind
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21:42:23 <snarf> another interesting solution: using two accounts.. one asset account and another liability account
21:42:24 <snarf> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=L4TJu612
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23:19:41 <snarf> whoa...
23:20:03 * snarf just realized that "credit card" and "debit card" have to do with credits and debits
23:20:12 <snarf> *mind blown*
23:22:13 <snarf> or maybe not...
23:25:53 <snarf> so, i've been thinking about that double account idea...
23:26:04 <snarf> it looks like it would be pretty clean
23:26:24 <snarf> but i don't like creating imaginary assets and imaginary liabilities
23:26:45 <snarf> as i don't really have either in my situation
23:27:53 <snarf> and what happens to those accounts if i lose my job or get another one? they'll remain, even though i'd no longer be having a portion of my paycheck set aside for them or reimbursed to reduce the value of both accounts
23:28:15 <snarf> so they'll exist forever after instead of being zeroed out at the end of the year
23:28:57 <snarf> unless i go back and change their opening balances to hold just enough until my job ends (instead of until year end)
23:29:36 <snarf> and i'm not sure if i could do that once i've reconciled the account(s) in question
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