2013-05-06 GnuCash IRC logs
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12:31:21 <warlord> Hiya john
12:31:24 <warlord> @op john
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12:31:56 <john> Hi, Derek. Something on your mind?
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12:36:47 <warlord> Nope. Just saying hi
12:37:25 <john> OK.
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14:19:10 <esj1234> I'm suffering from an "too stupid to breathe" moment with bookkeeping
14:20:04 <esj1234> I have spent the past two months trying to straighten out some personal/small business accounting problems and I can't understand bookkeeping no matter what books I read worked exercises I tried etc.
14:20:33 <esj1234> For example, I'm trying to import bank records. They come in, complained about being unbalanced which I can sort of understand
14:20:51 <esj1234> but I can't find anything that tells me how to balance them and how to build my categories/accounts incrementally
14:21:10 <esj1234> everything I've read seems to assume you know what you categories are.
14:22:27 <esj1234> him on top of that, I'm hand disabled and using a mouse or keyboard is painful.
14:22:55 <esj1234> this physical pain probably contributes to my inability to learn bookkeeping. After all why do something if it's going to make your arms burn up your elbows
14:26:51 <warlord> esj1234: the key is to think about a transaction as moving value from one place to another..
14:27:17 <warlord> a simple balanced transactions has two splits, a credit split (source) and debit split (destination)
14:27:50 <esj1234> I think the transaction is moving a value from one place to another except in this case it's one of the buckets that either consumes or produces money
14:27:53 <warlord> So to balance a transaction you need to supply both the debit and credit sides. Generally one side is "understood" (as the current account). So you just need to supply the other in the Transfer column
14:28:08 <warlord> esj1234: nope, there is no "except"...
14:28:24 <esj1234> ok
14:28:29 <warlord> In those cases you use an Income or Expense account as the 'source' or 'destination'
14:28:38 <warlord> e.g., your Salary is a transaction from Income to Bank
14:28:55 <warlord> Your grocery shopping is a transaction from Bank to Expenses:Groceries
14:29:38 <esj1234> is there an existing set of accounts for common categories?
14:30:00 <warlord> Yes, which you can generate through the Hierarchy Druid
14:30:47 <warlord> (either File -> New File or Actions -> New Account Hierarchy, depending on whether you want to start from scratch or augment the current datafile
14:31:23 <esj1234> out this is making me insane. I just found a record in my ofx file that doesn't correspond to anything in my bank statement
14:31:42 <warlord> esj1234: I would recommend you do NOT import your data.
14:31:46 <esj1234> do I have to go through two years of bank statements for four accounts (divorce hell)
14:31:54 <esj1234> okay, what do you recommend?
14:32:14 <warlord> oh... I dont know, do you NEED that much history?
14:32:24 <esj1234> I have not done my taxes for 2011 or 2012
14:32:28 <warlord> I would have just suggested you enter your trnasactipons as they occur
14:32:29 <esj1234> corporate or personal
14:32:45 <esj1234> let me add one other thing. My hands are broken. I have nerve damage and I cannot type much
14:32:49 <warlord> I would recommend you walk to the nearest H&R Block office with your box of paperwork ;)
14:33:08 <esj1234> I have seen nothing to indicate that gnucash is particularly speech recognition friendly
14:33:31 <esj1234> everybody I've talked to wants me to minimal bookkeeping on the data so they' don't have to go through everything
14:33:55 <esj1234> and since I can no longer write legibly, I have nothing but a valid excuse to avoid doing my taxes
14:34:06 <esj1234> not to mention that a bunch of records were destroyed by not me
14:34:13 <warlord> :(
14:34:28 <warlord> I think that any accounting program is going to require some amount of typing
14:34:35 <warlord> (how are you typing now?)
14:34:40 <esj1234> this is extremely frustrating I have tried for five different packages over the past couple years and everything is not handicapped friendly. In fact most things are handicap hostile
14:34:52 <esj1234> NaturallySpeaking. The only working speech recognition system for disabled folks like myself
14:35:29 <esj1234> sound like him when I have to build a domain specific language to do some fundamental tracking
14:35:36 <esj1234> I've done this before with HTML/Web development
14:35:50 <esj1234> you build a little language to track information and perform some of the major common operations and you have something it becomes much more speech recognition friendly
14:36:20 <esj1234> I could do that with the gnucash too if I had access to an API that drove the system
14:36:35 <warlord> Alas, I'm afraid GnuCash might not be extremely handicap friendly. I think that Gtk does provide some tools, but I suspect the register might not easily listen to that in any of the current releases. (Although I'd be happy to hear that it does work)
14:37:02 <esj1234> I have not been able to find anything that works with speech
14:37:16 <esj1234> him him him him for what it's worth, any time you try to put accessibility features into the GUI, it's an immediate lose
14:37:27 <esj1234> you really need to go to the application layer self and provide an API with functionality equivalent to what the GUI provides
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14:37:38 <esj1234> then I can write my own user interface based on my needs
14:37:43 <warlord> But back to your import question: during the import there is a transaction matcher phase where you can map each transaction to its correct Income/Expense account
14:38:08 <esj1234> I have is your transaction... oh wait a minute
14:38:19 <warlord> alas, much of the gnucash business logic is tied to the GUI
14:38:19 <esj1234> that was the thing that came up and yellow and had controls that I had no idea what to do it
14:38:55 <esj1234> I understand the perception. Many people have that for many products but with about 15 minutes and the whiteboard, I can show you how that's not true. It was an artifact created by deveeloper preconceptions
14:39:46 <warlord> IIRC you would click (or double click) on the right side to assign the account.,
14:39:52 <esj1234> I need to get going five minutes to do with some work stuff but for example, I'm looking at some green and yellow striped display with the basic account transaction information
14:40:11 <esj1234> right if you squint or mouse to perform an action, that can become a command
14:40:49 <warlord> I believe the colors are documented in the docs. I've not looked.... I'm sorry
14:40:52 <esj1234> "reassign account" refers to the current line and brings up a dialog box asking you which account to recite it to which you can then speak to complete transaction
14:41:28 <warlord> Okay.. That may be what you want. (I dont use the importer)
14:41:52 <esj1234> so queries the the speech interface would make would be which line, which transaction, a list of what's possible on that transaction a friend creates new grammar for the next utterance)
14:42:05 <esj1234> (creates...
14:42:35 <esj1234> and then once you say something, perform that operation on that current transaction
14:43:00 <esj1234> all of these operations are disconnected from the current GUI and you add a small additional GUI to help prompt the user to the next step
14:43:27 <esj1234> it's not hard. You only have to live with broken hands for 15 or 20 years before you understand how the user interface changes.
14:45:18 <esj1234> I think you have to build a simple language to help me account for things
14:45:21 <esj1234> something like
14:45:25 <esj1234> account number 1234
14:45:42 <esj1234> date January 1, 2011
14:46:02 <esj1234> description, amount
14:46:24 <esj1234> or maybe tag, description, amount
14:46:40 <esj1234> and then be able to filter on tag and build some reports
14:47:04 <esj1234> that's what I'm thinking might be my way out of here
14:48:47 <warlord> To some degree gnucash kinda does that already... I just dont know if it listens to voice commands. But if you open an account register you effectively get that..
14:49:45 <esj1234> that may be true but it understand that, I'm probably going to have to take a course in bookkeeping plus build a bunch accessibility plug-ins etc. etc. to make it wwork
14:50:44 <warlord> You can try reading the GnuCash Tutorial and Concepts Guide...
14:51:27 <esj1234> I've been through it twice. And it leaves me more confused than I did before I started reading
14:51:41 <esj1234> the only system that made any sense whatsoever was ways accounting and that dichotomy because of problems with the feed for my bank
14:51:53 <esj1234> that should be wave accounting
14:52:42 <esj1234> like I said this is one of those moments where I feel too stupid to breathe
14:53:13 <warlord> The key to understanding gnucash is all about understanding double entry accounting
14:53:25 <esj1234> right. And apparently I have some really wrong concepts my head which is keeping me from understanding
14:53:36 <esj1234> so I have to figure out what they are in order to be able to learn what it is
14:53:44 <warlord> (the second key is understanding the basic accounting equations of Assets, Liabilities, Equity, Income, and Expense)
14:53:58 <esj1234> the thing is, I learn best hands-on and with someone correcting my misunderstandings
14:54:02 <warlord> Possibly. Most people, for example, confuse debits and credits
14:54:28 <esj1234> to me a debit is something take out account and credit it's something you apply to an account which modifies the balance
14:54:43 <warlord> (this is due to Banks sending you statements with the terms from *their* books, which is exactly the opposite of how YOU would account for it in YOUR books)
14:54:44 <esj1234> I write a check and that creates a debit of X. dollars
14:54:55 <esj1234> actually creates an obligation of X. dollars until its cash which point it becomes a debit
14:55:01 <warlord> THat's my point -- that's wrong.
14:55:11 <esj1234> really I learned that from my bank's behavior
14:55:28 <warlord> When you write a check that's a CREDIT to the account.. from YOUR side. (It's a debit from the bank's side)
14:55:41 <warlord> Right, you learned the bank's terms, which are opposite of yours.
14:55:51 <warlord> To the bank you are a Liability..
14:56:02 <esj1234> so if I write a check for hundred dollars to cable TV, that's a credit to the cable TV account a debit my checking account
14:56:07 <warlord> A Credit increases a liability
14:56:20 <warlord> no, you again have it backwards.
14:56:29 <esj1234> see if this is the kind of stuck I get with
14:56:57 <warlord> Right, so stop thinking in terms of "debits" and "credits" and instead think of "Increase" and "Decrease"
14:57:03 <warlord> (or "Deposit" and "Withdrawal")
14:57:13 <esj1234> k
14:57:23 <warlord> So when you write a check you are Withdrawing from your bank and "depositing" it in your Expenses:Cable
14:57:25 <esj1234> need to go in 2 min, cust call at 3
14:57:33 <warlord> k
14:58:08 <warlord> (for what it's worth it took me *years* to correct my mis-understanding of credits and debits due to my indocrination from my bank statements)
14:58:18 <esj1234> I'll tell you I'll tell you when the customer arrives
14:58:32 <warlord> Ok
14:58:40 <esj1234> but still keep the irc open
14:58:42 <warlord> k
15:01:09 <esj1234> this probably means all the bank generated data is also corrupt
15:01:19 <esj1234> in the same wayI'm sorry I just thoght of presentation has been overwritten I got to go
15:01:49 <warlord> Okay, good luck.
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15:50:09 <esj1234> back
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15:57:58 <warlord> Anyone here have an active ipv6 connection and willing to help me test something?
15:58:43 <DimStar> warlord: sure..
15:58:56 <warlord> DimStar: can I PM?
15:59:03 <DimStar> yes
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22:29:26 <naught101> Is it possible to write plugins for GnuCash? If so, can they modify existing UIs? Are there any docs on plugin development?
22:30:42 <naught101> thinking along the lines of this as a plugin: https://gnucash.uservoice.com/forums/101223-feature-request/suggestions/1543027-transaction-classifications#comments
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23:17:48 <naught101> Also, http://www.gnucash.org/sizing.phtml is well out of date, and could be replaced with a link to https://www.ohloh.net/p/gnucash, which someone should claim
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