2012-10-15 GnuCash IRC logs

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11:44:24 <gp5st> hello. Are there any easy ways to share a gnucash file? i would like my wife and i to both be able to access it securely. or would i need to write a plugin and server to do it?
11:45:05 <warlord> gp5st: do you have a shared file system? It's like sharing an OpenOffice document.
11:45:15 <warlord> (and only one of you can be using it at a time)
11:45:22 <gp5st> warlord: can it be opened by both users at the same time
11:45:27 <warlord> no
11:45:27 <gp5st> open and edited*
11:45:30 <warlord> no
11:45:34 <gp5st> that's what i'd require
11:45:52 <warlord> gnucash is single user
11:45:53 <gp5st> i know you normally can't do it simply by sharing the file itself on a shared fs
11:46:13 <warlord> there is no configuration in which gnucash is *not* single-user at this time
11:47:12 <gp5st> what would preclude "saving" to the "cloud" or is more reading updates and applying them to the view?
11:47:29 <warlord> yes
11:47:39 <gp5st> hmm
11:47:46 <warlord> gnucash reads everything into ram and works from there.
11:48:03 <warlord> if you had two writers then the second person would overwrite the first.
11:48:57 <warlord> multi-user would require a 'notification' method (which could be a poll) in order to update the client view when the data changes, and to prevent simultaneous changes to the same transaction.
11:48:58 <gp5st> i'll have to look at the code to see how it's architected, but but i'd be interested in working on this issue
11:49:06 <gp5st> yes
11:49:22 <gp5st> i'm well aware of the issues involved in distributed and shared systems
11:49:22 <warlord> We welcome it, but it would be a LOT of work. GnuCash isn't a real DB App. It just uses the DB as a file store.
11:49:59 <gp5st> yeah. I'll have to look into the code, style, and contribution guides
11:50:24 <warlord> http://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki is your friend
11:50:27 <gp5st> for now i'll just update it at night with her
11:50:32 <gp5st> thanks warlord:)
11:50:49 <warlord> Good luck. My wife wouldn't know how to enter a transaction.
11:53:49 <gp5st> thanks:) i could shoot pie-in-the-sky and make the server agnostic to the actual data (encrypt it) and possibly see if there is any market for a hosted solution (make it work with a smartphone app and the desktop or multi-person accounting offices)
11:54:34 <warlord> LOL. Good luck with that, but have you looked at e.g. SQL-Ledger and other web-based solutions?
11:54:57 <gp5st> i have not
11:55:03 <gp5st> not yet anyway
11:55:51 <gp5st> one of the big things is i like having a local copy of things, and not have them solely be "cloud" based
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11:56:34 <warlord> sure, but sql-ledger is a web-app you run yourself, so you still own your data.
11:56:58 <gp5st> one thing i need to find is what the core dev's take on dependencies is. for instance if dbus or an xmpp lib would be allowed as a dependency
11:57:10 <gp5st> i'll look into it. thank you
11:57:35 <warlord> It would not be allowed as a required dependency, but you could make it optional
11:57:52 <warlord> (actually, we may already depend on dbus)
11:58:16 <gp5st> ah. you can see how much i've looked into this so far
11:58:37 <warlord> Ah, no, we dont. There is no dbus in the win32 build.
11:58:53 <gp5st> gotchya
11:59:07 <gp5st> i could always fall back on to long polling or something
11:59:08 <warlord> Also keep in mind that anything you do needs to work on *nix, Mac, and Win32
11:59:26 <warlord> I dont think people would approve of requiring a server.
11:59:36 <warlord> So yeah, might need to do lazy polling of the database (IMHO)
11:59:52 <gp5st> well, it would be a storage method like mysql or xml is now i was thinking
12:02:47 <warlord> I think that any multi-user solution would need to leverage "existing" SQL dbs
12:03:59 <gp5st> i would be using one to back the server. the server would simply encrypt, possible, data, make sure things aren' deleted, make sure things are logged, and distribute updates. i would never go and write a database:-p
12:05:20 <gp5st> anyway, right now it's an idea. i have to explore the code and see my schedule first
12:05:33 <warlord> My point is that the architecture should remain the same: GnuCash App -> DB. Not GnuCash App -> GnuCash 'server' -> DB
12:06:22 <gp5st> sure, you could always connect to a remote mysql instance, but i thought the value of the server would be distributing updates in real time to clients
12:11:17 <warlord> I think it would be easier to work on GnUCash->DB first, then you can add a server later for improved efficiency.
12:11:23 <gp5st> quick question about common usage: netflix for instance. would it be best to create a "netflix" account under "entertainment" or just make monthly credits to entertainment named "netflix"
12:11:41 <warlord> Depends on how you want to report it later.
12:12:30 <warlord> If you want to easily know how much you spent on netflix v. hulu, then yeah, separate subaccounts is better. If you *really* only care about how much you spent on entertainment, then just putting 'netflix' in the description is sufficient.
12:12:50 <warlord> NB it's always easier to combine accounts than to split stuff out later.
12:13:11 <gp5st> ok. that's about what i was thinking. i just wanted to bounce it off someone who might have encountered other issues with the setup
12:13:44 <gp5st> my concern with polling the database and looking for changes is the amount of network traffic that would create
12:14:15 <warlord> depends on your polling request
12:14:26 <gp5st> to make is psuedo-real time
12:14:42 <warlord> ... which is why I said earlier "lazy"
12:14:51 <warlord> only poll when there is a UI update.
12:15:00 <warlord> (we already have a 'refresh' hook)
12:15:49 <gp5st> true. other than just seeing things in real time. one transaction won't really overwrite another one when they're being inserted
12:16:04 <gp5st> i just don't like people seeing stale data
12:18:55 <warlord> for new entries that is true, but if you are editing an existing txn you have to worry.
12:19:58 <warlord> the UI refreshes frequently, so you can nearly constantly be checking for new data. a "select * where created_at >= (last_update_time)" shouldn't be too hard. Except, of course, you need to worry about clock sync
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12:25:24 <gp5st> yeah. one could even do a select now(); on startup to get the time diff
12:26:43 <gp5st> that might work
12:26:51 <gp5st> and be easier to implement
12:27:22 <gp5st> as long as it supports sql over ssl there shouldn't be many problems with that
12:27:44 <gp5st> conceptually
12:30:14 <warlord> right
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12:39:43 <gp5st> thank you for your help and ideas warlord
12:39:58 <warlord> you're welcome. good luck gp5st
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15:00:15 <gp5st> has git ever been considered as a storage mechanism? it provides history and would allow distributed people working. still require sync and updates, but the syncing is part of git
15:00:53 * Simon just saves uncompressed xml and puts it in git
15:01:26 <Simon> although it's not overly practical to use the history given how it detects changes in xml based on lines not xml elements
15:01:35 <gp5st> Simon: earlier i was discussing ideas of building a method of multi-user account sharing into gnucash
15:02:16 <gp5st> Simon: if a suitable diff program for xml were found/written, it could be used instead
15:02:49 <gp5st> either way, i was thinking of having gnucash write to a git repo, which it could then sync either in the background or on a user action
15:03:02 <gp5st> so that, for example, my wife and i could use it at the same time
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15:07:01 <DimStar> Good evening everybody...
15:07:27 <DimStar> once more it seems openSUSE is hit by something nasty... and I'm not sure (yet) if it's *us* again or if I can blame somebody else today :)
15:07:33 <DimStar> Anybody willing to have a glance at https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=784992 ?
15:07:43 <warlord> gp5st: people have used git and svn to store their uncompressed data file. It has never been explored as something gnucash would do natively.
15:08:08 <warlord> DimStar: Most likely another OS bug
15:08:55 <warlord> DimStar: can you get a Stack Trace?
15:09:12 <gp5st> warlord: I'm debating what the advantages would be over what we were discussing earlier, esp given code for databases is already present
15:10:12 <DimStar> warlord: I can try (I don't use the app myself.. so will have to try to reproduce based on the user info). What puzzled me most was that it's not for all systems he tried.
15:11:18 <warlord> DimStar: the bug report as-is is not sufficient to guess where the issue is.
15:13:42 <DimStar> warlord: I can reproduce it at least.. so that's not too bad :)
15:14:28 <DimStar> a first stack trace: http://paste.opensuse.org/4632272
15:14:32 <warlord> Okay. I would suggest getting a gdb backtrace to see where the segfault is happening. This could be a gnucash, aqb, or bug elsewhere.
15:14:53 <DimStar> (will try to get debug info for libaqhbci... which is apparently where it crashes...
15:15:47 <warlord> Yep. So possibly an aqb bug
15:16:01 <DimStar> http://paste.opensuse.org/42485335 => more complete stack trace
15:21:09 <warlord> Definitely looks like a potential issue in AH_Msg_DecodeMsg
15:25:53 <DimStar> not unlikely an issue for the bank name having an umlaut in the name...
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15:26:54 <warlord> That's also possible.
15:27:40 <DimStar> and it seems not to matter if I enter the umlaut or not.. seems it get's it from the bank website on its own anyway (I tried witu ue instead, but the final dialog showed it back with umlaut)
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15:30:11 <DimStar> phew... so for once not an openSUSE bug :) yipee!
15:31:28 <warlord> LOL
15:32:16 <DimStar> I tell you.. gnucash on openSUSE is cursed...
15:33:03 <DimStar> I requested it to be added to the automatic test suite now :) probably one of the weirdest leaf packages in there...
15:33:09 <warlord> s/gnucash on//g
15:33:34 <DimStar> nah.. I wouldn't go THAT far...
15:33:48 <warlord> why not?
15:34:02 <DimStar> openSUSE itself works good...
15:34:21 <warlord> it always seems the buggiest of all distros
15:34:52 <DimStar> only for gnucash... otherwise we're much more stable than others (ok, maybe not as debian.. but they don't release)
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16:46:30 <diverdude> Hello, is gnucash available for download to install on my server?
17:04:47 <warlord> define "install on [your] server"?
17:06:04 <diverdude> warlord: well i was thinking to have files and database on my server, so that my employess can log on and use gnucash via my server
17:07:56 <warlord> diverdude: gnucash is a single-user app. It does not support multiple simultaneous users.
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18:46:38 <mes> should gnc 2.4.10 be able to open a file last edited in 2003 ? whatever version that was
18:47:35 <mes> it complains that the file was made by a newer version of gnc and I should upgrade
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18:58:22 <warlord> mes: it *should*, barring bugs.
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18:58:32 <warlord> What OS/Distro?
19:16:16 <mes> sorry on the phone, debian sid
19:17:38 <warlord> can you take a look in /tmp/gnucash.trace and see if gnucash complained about why it couldn't open the file?
19:18:21 <mes> sure I was just going to ask if there was such a file
19:19:24 <mes> only two lines
19:19:28 <mes> 16:18:35 WARN <gnc.backend.dbi> [gnc_module_init_backend_dbi()] No DBD driver
19:19:28 <mes> s found
19:19:41 <mes> 16:18:45 WARN <gnc.backend> [gnc_xml_be_load_from_file()] Version of Xml file
19:19:42 <mes> /home/mes/accounts/2001 is newer than what we can read
19:21:07 <warlord> Hmm.. interesting.
19:21:29 <warlord> can you run: zcat /home/mes/accounts/2001 | head
19:24:37 <mes> well it's not gzipped
19:24:47 <mes> I can just do vi 2001
19:25:55 <mes> so what do you want from it
19:26:19 <mes> first four lines:<?xml version="1.0"?>
19:26:19 <mes> <gnc-v2>
19:26:19 <mes> <gnc:count-data cd:type="book">1</gnc:count-data>
19:26:19 <mes> <gnc:book version="(null)">
19:28:52 <warlord> Ooh, book version = null?
19:28:57 <warlord> That's probably the issue!
19:29:01 <warlord> Interesting.
19:29:15 <warlord> Do you know what version of gnucash wrote this file?
19:29:49 <mes> I have an old machine with 2.2.? that can open this file, or at least I think it is the same.
19:30:16 <mes> it was last edited in June 23rd 2003
19:30:31 <mes> so no idea what the version was then
19:34:12 <warlord> this is certainly a bug -- 2.4.x is using the version# to decide what to do. But it probably didn't take into account a bug in an older version that would output a (null) version.
19:34:35 <mes> H'm I have 2002 backups made sam day in June 2003, oldest one has book version 2.0.0 but the ones the next day are null
19:34:38 <warlord> Can you file a bug report in Bugzilla, supply that XML header information, and send mail to gnucash-devel with the bug# and info?
19:35:07 <warlord> Can you see if there are any other instances of "(null)" in the data file?
19:35:14 <warlord> (I bet 2.4.10 will open that backup)
19:37:53 <mes> yes but that is next years account data, and it does open that year without trouble, it is also compressed, I see it was opened march 2011
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19:39:19 <mes> only one null in the file, so the question is what should the version number be in 2003?
19:43:26 <mes> warlord, do you really think this would be a beneficial bug report? I think you should check your account more than once per decade, the bug should really be filed on the bookkeeper, not that he would care.
19:45:15 <warlord> Yes, it would be.
19:45:25 <warlord> Make a backup, but try putting in 2.0.0
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19:46:50 <mes> I see 18 backup files with null last being 2004/04/28, but that could have been the same gnucash version as the previous summer.
19:47:16 <warlord> Maybe, or a broken 2.2
19:50:16 <mes> backups are timestamped right? 2003.20040504105734.xac, would be May 4th? that file has version back to 2.0.0
19:50:23 <warlord> yes
19:51:32 <mes> that is the day it is moved to backup, so timestamp on file is the last day is was accessed
19:53:02 <warlord> Interesting.
19:53:43 <mes> I mean filesystem timestamp
20:03:48 <mes> well, just changing (null) to 2.0.0 does not fix the open
20:06:54 <warlord> mes: can you find the last backup file that actually opens, and then do a diff between that and the next one (which does not)?
20:11:08 <mes> yes, I'll try opening the two 2003 that have that change, I think the version that did this was 1.8.4
20:19:04 <mes> shit, it wo'nt open any of the backups that were made before 2007
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20:24:22 <mes> oops, I lied, Nov 2006 is the cutoff date
20:28:51 <mes> best I can find that opens and does not, diff starts with <?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8" ?> the encoding is new
20:29:29 <mes> <gnc-v2 tag includes lots of xmlns:gnc="http://www.gnucash.org/XML/gnc" in the newer file
20:30:55 <mes> <gnc:commodity version="2.0.0"> and all its bits are added in the new version
20:36:06 <mes> the old file that won't open has many (585) <slot:key>placeholder</slot:key> .. slot:value type of tags
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21:13:24 <warlord> that's a strange diff, to add placeholders.
21:18:02 <warlord> I can't see any reason that you would lose 585 placeholders unless you have two different base accounts.
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