2012-09-14 GnuCash IRC logs

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13:27:37 <Hossein> Hi
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13:36:20 <Hinnerk> hi
13:37:04 <Hinnerk> once more one of my favorite topic: scheduled tranactions and debt with a different final payment.
13:37:30 <Hinnerk> when I tried to fudge values in the loan assisstant, the values were automatically changed back...
13:37:37 <Hinnerk> how should I go about it?
13:37:48 <Hinnerk> quick summary of the problem:
13:38:02 <Hinnerk> I have a loan and I pay X eur per month for 47 months.
13:38:12 <Hinnerk> in the 48th month I pay Y eur.
13:38:21 <Hinnerk> the interest rate is 3%.
13:38:44 <Hinnerk> How can I book this properly with a scheduled transaction / loan assisstant?
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13:43:08 <Hinnerk> is I quiet, because nobody is listening or because everyone is thinking?
13:44:16 <Hinnerk> ohoh, i'm afraid it is the first case.
13:44:59 <Fabzgy> This is a channel to answer questions - no question no communication (my experience so far here)
13:45:30 <Hinnerk> oh, I placed my question just before you arrived...
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14:04:22 <Hinnerk> I just tried to seperate the loan contract.
14:04:29 <Hinnerk> Looked good in Excel :)
14:05:05 <Hinnerk> So now I have two virtual loans.
14:05:27 <Hinnerk> One with a constant interest and no repayment until the very end - that's easy to do.
14:05:39 <Hinnerk> One which looks like made for the loan assisstant.
14:06:02 <Hinnerk> However, when I ran the assistant, the preview looked okay - but the bookings didn't look okay at all...
14:06:27 <warlord> Hinnerk: Change the SX so that the ending value is your Y amount.
14:06:31 <Hinnerk> I actually saw two bookings in the loan account per month coming from this second virtual contract.
14:07:03 <Hinnerk> YOu mean, after the loan assissrtant generated the sx?
14:07:10 <Hinnerk> I'll give that a shot.
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14:13:43 <warlord> Well, I dont know if you can tell the assistant to end the loan with ~0
14:13:46 <Hinnerk> where in the formula to I enter the final amount?
14:13:49 <Hinnerk> pmt( 0,03500 / 12,00 : 48,00 : 20000,00 : 0 : 0 )
14:13:54 <warlord> It's one of the 0s
14:13:58 <warlord> Don't know which offhand.
14:14:00 <Hinnerk> last or first but last zero?
14:14:02 <Hinnerk> or both?
14:16:25 <Hinnerk> when I google this, I find documentation for the pmt function which must be outdated... it has foru arguments and claims the last one is the original principal
14:18:48 <Hinnerk> any idea how to find out other than the hard way?
14:19:43 <Hinnerk> it is not easily chaned back and forth, since the sx is marked as booked, even when the tx get deleted afterwards, so I need to reenter everything...
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14:25:57 <Hinnerk> I what file would I find the relevant source code?
14:34:48 <warlord> Check fin.scm
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14:36:31 <Hinnerk> when I change the first 0, the sx tells me it is not even any anymore...
14:43:08 <Hinnerk> matter of fact, if i leave everything unchanged, the sx will say when I click on ok, that the booking will not automatically be even...?
14:43:15 <Hinnerk> that's worrying...
14:45:57 <Hinnerk> Ok, I'm getting tired, I'll give it another shot this weekend, but I think this tool needs more explanations.
14:46:04 <Hinnerk> thx for thying tough.
14:49:30 <Hinnerk> based on fin.scm and as far as I understand it (not very much) and involving at least one educated guess, I would say it is the last but on argument that is the "Forward Value".
14:55:41 <warlord> Hinnerk: from fin.scm: define (gnc:pmt rate nper pv fv type)
14:56:24 <warlord> so... the future value (fv) is the second to last variable.
14:57:04 <warlord> i.e., change the : 0 : 0 ) to : forward value : 0 )
15:01:00 <Hinnerk> yes, but I get this warning that the sx is not automatically even...?!
15:17:40 <Hinnerk> one more idea:
15:17:50 <Hinnerk> I already know what I pay monthly.
15:18:17 <Hinnerk> And let's say, I hav let the loan assistant setup up the formula for the interest booking.
15:18:31 <Hinnerk> then my monthly minus the interest is my loan reduction.
15:18:40 <Hinnerk> can I enter such a formula in sx?
15:19:04 <Hinnerk> that is "400 - ipmt(...."
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15:27:58 <warlord> Hinnerk: you'll need to change all the formula, not just the one.
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15:32:50 <Hinnerk> of course
15:32:56 <Hinnerk> i did that
15:34:42 <warlord> I do think that the verification scheme is.. broken.
15:36:35 <Hinnerk> hm
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15:41:47 <Hinnerk> what about my other approach?
15:41:54 <Hinnerk> 400-ipmt
15:41:58 <Hinnerk> will that work
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15:50:11 <warlord> Are you sure the '400 - ipmt' is correct? That doesn't seem right to me.
15:50:31 <Hinnerk> well, ipmt is the interest paid
15:50:46 <Hinnerk> then my fixed monthly minus interest is used to reduce the loan.
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16:04:38 <warlord> I'm not sure where that 400 comes from.
16:05:03 <Hinnerk> 400 being the monthly payment made, including interest
16:05:27 <Hinnerk> but forget about the bookkeeping: should the sx interface accept the formula?
16:07:00 <warlord> It should, however it might not validate the txn. There's a bug w.r.t validation
16:08:30 <Hinnerk> meaning, there would be a warning but will be accepted?
16:08:41 <Hinnerk> or will validation stop it from happening?
16:08:55 <warlord> it's just a warning
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16:09:00 <Hinnerk> ok
16:09:27 <Hinnerk> I'm convinced of the bookkeeping part, so I'll give that a try
16:10:03 <GViktorsson> is there a way to change the default smallest fraction for a built-in currency? judgning by everything else I'm thinking there must be an XML file somewhere, but I can't seem to find one
16:10:36 <GViktorsson> I'm setting up a new .gnucash file and I'd rather not change every single account I create manually
16:11:02 <GViktorsson> *judging
16:11:37 <warlord> GViktorsson: no, there's not a way to do that w/o recompiling. currencies are built in/.
16:12:27 <GViktorsson> ahh I see, thanks for a quick answer. I guess I'll just settle with doing it by hand
16:13:13 <GViktorsson> altough I did just build from source. Would it be trivial to change it from 1/100 to 1, and might it break if I open the .gnucash file later with a non-customized build?
16:14:37 <Hinnerk> warlord: didn't work. the booked amounts were constant over time...
16:14:59 <warlord> What's your SX Credit and Debit formulas look like?
16:15:16 <Hinnerk> one moment.
16:15:58 <Hinnerk> 391,79 - ipmt( 0,03500 / 12,00 : i : 47,00 : 17184,26 : 0 : 0 )
16:16:24 <Hinnerk> 8,21 + ipmt( 0,03500 / 12,00 : i : 47,00 : 17184,26 : 0 : 0 )
16:17:09 <GViktorsson> (FYI: the smallest fraction of ISK is 1, and has been for the last 5 or 10 years I beleive. Every transaction gets rounded to the nearest whole number, intersts f.ex. Does Gnucash maintain it's own database or rely on some official data?)
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16:26:13 <GViktorsson> ahh, I see Gnucash uses ISO4217. Note that http://www.currency-iso.org/dl_iso_table_a1.xml (as well as Wikipedia) correctly lists the minor unit as 0 (we dropped the aur/eyrir some years back)
16:26:31 <GViktorsson> maybe some Gnucash database needs to be updated?
16:26:47 <Hinnerk> warlord: do these formulas seem ok to you?
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16:29:50 <GViktorsson> can somebody please confirm that changing colum 8 from the number 100 to the number 1 for the ISK line in iso-4217-currencies.scm and then recompiling would make 1 the smallest fraction for ISK? (and preferably not break anything else)
16:32:49 <GViktorsson> or would I need to change the 7th colum from 1 to 100?
16:37:29 <warlord> sorry, on phone.
16:37:34 <Hinnerk> np
16:37:44 <GViktorsson> no stress, I'll just try it out :)
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16:56:16 <Hinnerk> warlord: the outcome of the above formulas does not change over time...
16:57:42 <warlord> GViktorsson: yes, please file a bug report
16:58:01 <warlord> Hinnerk: what's the third split formula look like?
16:58:18 <Hinnerk> is replaced it with the constant 400.
16:59:02 <Hinnerk> damn typos: I replaced it with "400".
17:02:07 <warlord> GViktorsson: yes, changing that to a '1' should be right. Take a look at the top of the file that should explain what each value means. You want to change the SCU to '1'
17:02:32 <warlord> Hinnerk: Hmm, that sounds... strange.
17:02:50 <Hinnerk> Well:
17:02:57 <Hinnerk> The bank gets 400 each month
17:03:21 <Hinnerk> of that, the second formula is booked as interest
17:03:33 <Hinnerk> and the rest is reducing the outstanding loan.
17:03:41 <Hinnerk> the first and second formula add up to 400.
17:04:45 <Hinnerk> so it equals out.
17:07:05 <warlord> That will not work because the ppmt and ipmt wont take 'current balance' into account. Especially if ppmt() doesn't == 400
17:07:14 <warlord> er, if pmt()..
17:07:28 <Hinnerk> they dont have to.
17:08:19 <Hinnerk> if i take ipmt as the cashflow as it is produced by gnucash and I apply in excel the above changes, everything is fine.
17:08:32 <Hinnerk> however in gnucash, the value is constant over time.
17:09:42 <Hinnerk> why would it be constant?
17:10:08 <Hinnerk> i backstart the sx on 1.1.2012, so i can see the booking of the last 9 months.
17:10:40 <Hinnerk> they are all equal
17:11:06 <warlord> Hinnerk: they do have to. Your credits must == your debits in the transaction.
17:11:29 <Hinnerk> sorry, i don't understand
17:11:43 <Hinnerk> there are three parts, right:
17:11:47 <Hinnerk> 1. interest paid
17:12:03 <Hinnerk> 2. principal paid pack
17:12:08 <warlord> You only show two of your splits, principal (ppmt) and interest (impt). You didn't know your 'net' split
17:12:09 <Hinnerk> 3. sum of the above
17:12:27 <warlord> You only showed 2 formulas above..
17:12:33 <Hinnerk> ok, I think I have a general misunderstanding on how this work.
17:12:41 <Hinnerk> yes, my third one is constant: 400.
17:13:02 <warlord> Well, that would explain why your transactions are always saying "400"
17:13:22 <Hinnerk> yes, but it doesn't explain why my interest is constant
17:13:43 <Hinnerk> ipmt should change over time.
17:14:11 <warlord> I dont know how well it works when you backdate.
17:14:21 <warlord> What version of gnucash are you using?
17:14:33 <warlord> (where were some bugs in SXes)
17:14:49 <warlord> I'm pretty sure they are fixed in 2.4.11
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17:15:59 <Hinnerk_> sorry lost conn for a moment
17:16:11 <warlord> You missed:
17:16:12 <warlord> <warlord> What version of gnucash are you using?
17:16:13 <warlord> <warlord> (where were some bugs in SXes)
17:16:13 <warlord> <warlord> I'm pretty sure they are fixed in 2.4.11
17:16:29 <Hinnerk_> 2.4.11
17:16:41 <warlord> okay, then you're not hitting that bug.
17:16:51 <warlord> Did the SX work before you modified them?
17:17:15 <Hinnerk_> well, yes, but I couldn't get my original problem solved
17:17:20 <warlord> (just revert to your backup file if you already saved, or you can quit w/o saving )
17:17:52 <Hinnerk_> getting rid of the bookings is not a problem :)
17:18:07 <warlord> Well, if you cannot get pmt() to compute the right amount then your P/I split is going to be wrong anyways, so you'll still have to hand-modify the txn each month.
17:18:22 <warlord> unfortunately that's not sufficient -- you also need to reset 'i' in the SX
17:18:58 <Hinnerk_> are you saying the functions are somehow connected? that is, ipmt uses somehow the value from my third booking?
17:19:15 <warlord> "third booking"?
17:19:39 <warlord> when left alone, pmt == ipmt + ppmt
17:20:14 <warlord> generally pmt is the credit (to Cash) and the others are debits to principal and expense
17:20:34 <Hinnerk_> let's just make sure i understand correctly:
17:20:43 <Hinnerk_> ipmt is the interest
17:20:55 <Hinnerk_> ppmt is the principal paid pack
17:21:04 <Hinnerk_> pmt is the total amount paid to the bank
17:21:06 <Hinnerk_> right?
17:21:40 <warlord> yes. all computed based on the original principal, interest, and term
17:21:46 <warlord> (and ending principal)
17:21:53 <Hinnerk_> ok, then based on this:
17:22:23 <Hinnerk_> 1. i don't need pmt, since the amount paid to the bank is always 400.
17:22:44 <warlord> Is pmt() computing 400?
17:22:55 <Hinnerk_> 2. for impt i need to modify by a constant amount (interest on the principal not being paid back within the term of the contract)
17:23:01 <warlord> if it's always 400 then pmt should compute 400. if not, then everything else will be wrong.
17:23:11 <Hinnerk_> 3. for ppmt i can just use 400 - my interest formula.
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17:24:10 <Hinnerk_> damn
17:24:16 <warlord> Theoretically, yes, that would work, assuming that your principal/interest/term input into pmt() would compute 400
17:24:27 <warlord> if not, then your interest computation will be wrong regardless.
17:24:47 <Hinnerk_> why do you keep mentioning pmt? I'm not even using that formula
17:24:55 <Hinnerk_> I only use ipmt
17:24:58 <warlord> because they are all related
17:25:08 <warlord> if pmt isn't right, then none of the others will be, either
17:26:38 <Hinnerk_> but i think this is really just a problem of syntax or formula parsing or something
17:26:56 <Hinnerk_> why is it constant?
17:27:12 <Hinnerk_> nothing i entered should justify constan values
17:28:18 <Hinnerk_> even if there was some flaw in my logic - why should the forumla spit out something constant?
17:29:05 <warlord> if 'i' isn't changing?
17:29:16 <Hinnerk_> my impression is that "10 + ipmt(..." gives somehting totally different from ipmt and then adding 10
17:29:22 <Hinnerk_> no, it is not changing
17:29:26 <Hinnerk_> it is constant over time
17:29:33 <warlord> Put the +10 at the end?
17:29:55 <Hinnerk_> I'm afraid you may be serious...?
17:30:08 <warlord> I dont know why it's giving you a constant -- Can you show a screen shot of the split-expanded transaction?
17:30:20 <Hinnerk_> one moment
17:31:13 <Hinnerk_> screenshot won't do you much good - the columns are too narrow and I can not expand them...
17:31:23 <Hinnerk_> you'll only see a small part of the formula.
17:31:26 <Hinnerk_> want it anyway?
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17:35:24 <warlord> I dont want the formula, i want the posted txn
17:35:36 <Hinnerk_> ah mom
17:38:36 <Hinnerk_> this is where the loan outstanding should be reduced over time by a varying amount
17:38:53 <Hinnerk_> you also want the interest screenshot?
17:39:52 <warlord> It should all be the same. It's one transaction.
17:40:12 <warlord> Hinnerk_: perhaps you can use imagebin? DCC isn't working.
17:40:34 <Hinnerk_> imagebin?
17:40:40 <warlord> yes
17:40:49 <warlord> (like pastebin, but for images)
17:41:25 <Hinnerk_> I'm also afraid I'm not showing you the right picture.
17:41:39 <Hinnerk_> please describe exactly what you want to see
17:42:12 <warlord> I want to see the full posted transaction
17:43:27 <Hinnerk_> from which account?
17:43:35 <warlord> I dont understand the question.
17:44:00 <warlord> That question makes no sense. The full transaction is the same regardless of which account you view it from. It should show all credits and all debits
17:44:09 <Hinnerk_> ok
17:44:13 <Hinnerk_> mom
17:45:47 <Hinnerk_> ok, got the screenshot - how do i get it to you?
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17:45:58 <warlord> imagebin
17:46:06 <Hinnerk_> is that a webpage?
17:46:10 <warlord> yes.
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17:47:42 <warlord> sorry, i might've missed something
17:48:50 <Hinnerk_> http://imagebin.org/228448
17:50:34 <Hinnerk_> you didn't miss anything...
17:51:43 <warlord> Wow, your window is HUGE.
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17:51:53 <warlord> Anyways, okay, so that looks like you have a balanced txn
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17:52:28 <warlord> Ah, but all of them have the 59.32
17:52:42 <Hinnerk_> yes, that'S strange
17:52:42 <warlord> Could you should your SX?
17:53:30 <Hinnerk_> http://imagebin.org/228449
17:54:30 <warlord> Well, it's clearly computing something.
17:54:43 <warlord> so that ipmt() is doing SOMETHING.
17:54:55 <Hinnerk_> well, yes, no crashes so far :)
17:55:05 <fell> If the first image is from the interests account, it is right.
17:55:19 <Hinnerk_> yes, it is the interest account
17:55:21 <warlord> fell: the issue is that the interest isn't changing
17:56:16 <Hinnerk_> 17' laptop :)
17:57:00 <fell> Oh, no fixed, but an ascending interest rate. Why not? ;-)
17:57:38 <warlord> well, ipmt() should have the %interest changing for each iteration of the SX
17:57:43 <Hinnerk_> ascending interest rate? the rate is constant 3,5% annually.
18:00:50 <fell> can you resize your columns? Haben-Formel is incomplete, while Beschreibung isto broad.
18:01:48 <Hinnerk_> I wish I could... but it doesn't seem to work under windows.
18:01:56 <Hinnerk_> let me copy you the formulas here:
18:02:16 <warlord> Hinnerk_: It works fine. See the FAQ
18:02:24 <Hinnerk_> Tilgung: 391,79 - ipmt( 0,03500 / 12,00 : i : 47,00 : 17184,26 : 0 : 0 )
18:02:29 <warlord> (you need to increase the other columns first and then you can decrease the description)
18:02:43 <Hinnerk_> Zinsen: 8,21 + ipmt( 0,03500 / 12,00 : i : 47,00 : 17184,26 : 0 : 0 )
18:04:23 <Hinnerk_> wow, that is a really complicated way to change column sizes ... someone trying to play a trick on users? just kidding....
18:05:48 <Hinnerk_> http://imagebin.org/228451
18:06:07 <warlord> no, trying to make full use of the window, so description will autofill
18:08:19 <Hinnerk_> but you can't drag a column to the left. that gave me the feeling it is buggy...
18:08:24 <Hinnerk_> i guess i was wrong
18:08:35 <Hinnerk_> it is just more complicated than i expected.
18:10:13 <Hinnerk_> anyway, back to the sx: any ideas?
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18:32:23 <Hinnerk> are you guys trying to reproduce the problem? looking at code? have abandoned the matter?
18:32:49 <warlord> abandoned.. family time right now.
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18:32:58 <Hinnerk> ah
18:44:21 <Hinnerk> is there a way to tell an sx that it show start all over?
18:44:50 <Hinnerk> that is, treat it as if it has never been booked before and start from scratch?
18:59:56 <fell> Hinnerk: SX are not my ressort, but i assume: delete existing TXNs, delete the old SX, create a new SX should work.
19:00:22 <Hinnerk> yes, that's what I was trying to avoid :)
19:00:53 <fell> have a look at your uncompressed data file?
19:02:18 <Hinnerk> are you asking me to take a look or do you want to take a look?
19:04:59 <fell> I am looking at mine, you couldlook at yours.
19:07:49 <Hinnerk> about the earlier loan problem?
19:08:05 <Hinnerk> i have deleted the tx and sx already and are trying to rework it differently.
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19:10:38 <Hinnerk> now i have found something new:
19:11:02 <Hinnerk> as described earlier, I "stripped" my loan of the part i don't pay back.
19:11:07 <fell> in the file you could search gnc:schedxaction
19:12:19 <Hinnerk> I did this in excel and the I used the load assisstant to produce an sx which shows in the assisstant's preview exactly the interest and paybacks I calculated in excel.
19:12:44 <Hinnerk> then, in the sx I overwrite the pmt with a fixed amount
19:13:02 <Hinnerk> an I add another line with a fixed amount of interest.
19:13:13 <Hinnerk> then I went ahead an had it booked.
19:13:37 <Hinnerk> but now the ipmt and ppmt give different values than in the preview!
19:13:42 <Hinnerk> what's up?
19:15:49 <fell> Sorry, I never used the loan druid.
19:17:58 <Hinnerk> ah, the loan druid shows interesting dates:
19:18:07 <Hinnerk> payments on 31.1. and 1.2.
19:18:10 <Hinnerk> ???
19:18:25 <Hinnerk> the payment from 31.1. should happen on 1.2.
19:18:36 <Hinnerk> and the one from 1.2. on 1.3.
19:41:56 <Hinnerk> ok, bedtime... there's something strange about the druids behavior. I'll be back :)
19:42:16 <Hinnerk> thx to fell and warlord!
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20:00:07 <fell> @tell Hinnerk Why are you not simply trying ipmt(), ppmt() and pmt() for your splits?
20:00:07 <gncbot> fell: The operation succeeded.
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